140: Pangolins w/ Jack Baker!

Ellen: [00:00:00] Hey there friends and welcome to episode 140 of Just The Zoo Of Us! This week, I am joined by a conservationist and podcaster who is here to wallow in the delightful glory of the humble pangolin. We discuss how the pangolin's unique adaptations tip the scales in favor of this walking pine cone and what challenges they face in the world today. So curl up into a nice, cozy little ball and enjoy Just The Zoo Of Us presents: pangolins with Jack Baker!

[intro music]

Hey everybody, it's Ellen Weatherford. This is Just The Zoo Of Us, your favorite animal review podcast. And this week I'm joined by a friend who may not be a new friend to some of you. I'm sure there's quite a bit of overlap between our friends.

This is Jack Baker! Say hi, Jack.

Jack: Hello everyone!

Ellen: Jack is here to talk about -- okay, I'm gonna say it -- one of my all time, favorite animals, not a joke. It's almost like I've been saving it because I just like really wanted to make sure this animal was getting done justice. And like, I almost didn't want to take it on myself because I was like, it's so sacred to me.

This is the pangolin. Which is perfect for you because the pangolin is the namesake of your podcast.

Jack: Yes. Yes, it is. Not to add any pressure then to me at all, at all, I'm sat here, like face is going red, like, oh no, no. So yes, I am Jack. To anyone who doesn't know me, um, hello, and to anyone who does [00:01:30] know me, hello. And I'm the host of Pangolin: The Conservation Podcast, which started out as a podcast dedicated to all things pangolin. And then as it developed, I realized pangolins to me represent all of the kind of underappreciated, underdog, conservation stories out there. And so I kind of expanded from there and we've gone on to talk about all sorts of other bizarre, under appreciated, under acknowledged wonderful conservation stories, things like lemurs and red pandas and koalas and all the kind of bizarre little things that maybe you don't know a lot about to do with conservation.

So yes, it started with the pangolin and ended up here.

Ellen: Now we're here.

Jack: Yes.

Ellen: We have some mutual connections through the Lemur Conservation Network as well. We've had some of their folks on the show before, and I understand you have too, you've worked with them about doing some episodes about lemurs in Madagascar.

Jack: Yes. It was one of those things that I shot an email to them and just said, listen, I would love to have a singular representative of your show, kind of come on the podcast, talk about lemurs. Cause I think they're one of these things that people know a lot about. Maybe ring-tailed lemurs or know a lot about kind of the big kind of popular species

Ellen: Zoboomafoo is out there.

Jack: So they knew about these kinds of big things, but they don't know about all of the things that go alongside them. And so they came back to me and said, well, actually we have, we're a network. So we have so many different people that would love to speak to you. And I think we ended up with 12 episodes dedicated to Madagascar, and we looked to everything from lemurs to baobabs, to the communities that [00:03:00] live in Madagascar and the drought, and what's going on and kind of looked at conservation and Madagascar and lemurs from so many different angles kind of paint this full picture of conservation. And it was just fantastic. And like, yes, I love them so much. It's one of those things that I liked lemurs and I was interested in lemurs, but I didn't know that much about them. And now I'm like, they're up there. They're top tier always kind of just below, just below the pangolin, obviously, but still top, top tier.

Ellen: That spot is reserved. Locked in.

Jack: Yeah, locked in. It's, well, it's a toss up. People always ask me what my favorite animal is and assume because the podcast is named pangolin, it would be that. But tapirs are coming up the rear really close, really, really close.

Ellen: You're just a big fan of that sloping facial structure, aren't you? Is that what it is?

Jack: Maybe it is. Elephants as well, I'm a big fan of those. Yeah, it could just be --

Ellen: We love a good banana face, huh?

Jack: It's strange looking animals. Maybe that's what it is. I have quite a big nose. So if I, if I turn to the side, you can't tell on camera when we're looking at each other. But like, when I turn to the side, big nose maybe.

Ellen: Just a sense of like representation, like seeing yourself reflected in the animal.

Jack: Yeah. Yeah. And also I feel like the reason I chose to study the pangolin when I was kind of looking to create my podcast in the first place was because I kind of saw this animal that is small underrepresented, it doesn't speak up a lot, and I see a lot of, I was like, during the pandemic, it was kind of like that time where everyone was retreating inside, hiding away, not giving a lot of attention, not kind of speaking to and so I was like, we need to focus on an animal, which I see having those similar traits, the pangolin.

Ellen: [00:04:30] Curling up into our little balls.

Jack: Yes, exactly. Kind of hiding ourselves away and yeah. That kind of spiritual connection of like, oh yeah, absolutely. Trying to keep us on topic there, but I'm probably going to go off topic again immediately, but --

Ellen: Well, you'd be surprised at how on topic you were, because I was just about to ask you, like what got you into pangolins and more so just like, what got you into the work that you do with conservation?

Jack: Yeah. Yeah. So, well, pangolins came later, so I guess I'll start with conservation in general and then move forward. Animals conservation, are one of those things I think always have been in my heart, on my mind, always loved them, but in school and things, I was always one of those people who did well in written subjects like English or history or politics or that kind of thing.

Ellen: Yeah, me too, yeah. For sure.

Jack: So yeah. So naturally when you're good at something like that, everyone in your life goes, you should do that, go and do this and do it. So I went away to uni --

Ellen: You should commodify this!

Jack: Yes, you should commodify something that you're good at, even if you don't enjoy it! That's the way that the world goes. And so, yeah, I went away and studied kind of politics. And then while I was doing that, I was working in an aquarium to kind of earn money. And so this love of animals has always been there and kind of in the background. And I was always happiest around them and it got to the end of my degree in politics. And I went, when am I happiest? And my happiest when I'm sitting in class learning about politics, I could go and get a job in an office and do this, that, and the next thing, or I could go out there and put myself into conservation, follow this dream.

And it came down to, and I've told this story on my own podcast so many times, but I feel like it's a [00:06:00] great, and I'm going to shout him out again. The baby polar bear that was born at the Highland Wildlife Park in Scotland, little baby Hamish. So cute. A good Scottish name, a great Scottish name. So wee Hamish was born just after I finished my degree and I went up to the Highland Wildlife Park. I saw him and I was so happy, just surrounded by nature and seeing this incredible, beautiful animal be born. And it was that moment where I was like, I've not felt this happiness doing politics in so long. Like I'm going to jump and just commit. So I went back and did a master's in conservation and worked at Edinburgh Zoo and kind of committed fully to conservation.

And along the way there, I met the pangolin. So for my dissertation, we were invited to do kind of a creative thing instead of writing, maybe you could do something a bit different. So I decided to do a podcast series all about the pangolin, learned all about it, fell in love with it instantly. I think one of the first email communications I ever had with my supervisor at the time was she just sent me a video of kind of one of the pangolins they were tracking in Namibia and it was just rolling around in a mud bath.

And I was instantly in love. And ever since then, it's kind of been the one for me. That kind of, yeah. So, yes.

Ellen: I just said this on our babirusa episode, but I love a good wallow. Ah, man, you give me something that rolls around in the mud that's it, man. It's game over. I love that.

Jack: It is. And it's something that like, especially with the day we're recording, this is probably one of Scotland's four sunny days of the year. So I'm sat here, like, thinking about that video now. [00:07:30] I wish I could wallow. I wish I just had a nice cold, like chilled out space in the backyard where I could just go in like lie in water and mud, and just kind of lie there and bake slowly. Like, that's just the dream.

Ellen: What you do, you you go to a hardware store. You say you work at a botanical garden, grab some soil, go toss it in your backyard or on your driveway or something.

And then you just hose it down. And there you go. You got some mud going, baby. Yeah. You got yourself a wallow.

Jack: Yeah. I'm sure my family would not question that at all.

Ellen: " Is Jack okay?"

Jack: "He's just wallowing."

Ellen: Going through some stuff.

Jack: I love how usually when we talk about humans wallowing, they're like, oh, is he okay emotionally? Well, he looks happier than he's ever been, but he's physically actually wallowing in the back garden.

Ellen: It's an act of self care.

Jack: So yeah. In conclusion to wrap up that long-winded story: always loved animals. And, you know, it's one of those things that has always been there in my mind, conservation and animals, and growing up, watching things like Steve Irwin and Animal Planet and David Attenborough and all of these people kind of influencing. Now I'm where I am now, living the dream, I suppose.

Ellen: It's a familiar story, you know, I feel like a lot of people that come on here, you know, come from similar beginnings of being inspired as a kid. And, you know, I I'm glad that you said that you did work also in social science and political science too, because like, when you're talking about conservation, that's something that plays a huge role in it. You know, like you can understand the animals all you want, but you know, you got to also understand what's going on with the human element when you're talking [00:09:00] about conservation and how humans are affecting the populations of the animals. So, you know, that's all part of it together. I know you said that you kind of like departed from studying politics, but like. A great foundation to have when you understand the politics that are going on too.

Jack: Yeah, definitely. And it was what was great about my conservation degree that I did after my undergrad was that it was interdisciplinary. So it had people from political backgrounds, geography, backgrounds, biology backgrounds. And I think when you get all of those people in the same space, that's actually when you get the most productive results, because if you focus all on the science or you focus on the politics, you get very insular and you get these kind of set mindsets that just kind of develop.

And so having people around with these different backgrounds, I think was very constructive for me personally. It's one of those things where personally, I wish it wasn't political because I feel like there should just be this general consensus that we need to do good and right by the environment and plants and the animals that we love round about. But, it's never that easy. So it's good to have that skillset of like, okay, how do we, how do we deal with politicians or whatever it is that maybe have different agendas to the ones that us, me, you, the listeners have in our minds, in our hearts. So it's a good background, I think to, to have.

Ellen: You mentioned that during your master's program, you were focusing on pangolins. Did you have any opportunities to like travel, to see them or like work with them in person?

Jack: Oh, so you might've seen my eye twitch there because I was... my master's took place in [00:10:30] 2020, which was a interesting time. We had a research trip booked for me and several others to go to Namibia, to visit, learn from people there.

We were going to learn about the trophy hunting debates that go on around Namibia. It was all kinds of topics that were going on. And then March 2020 comes along and...

Ellen: That's rough timing.

Jack: Rough timing. I have never felt worse. I don't know if I've told this story on my podcast. So you're getting an exclusive for me on this one.

Ellen: This is premium content, folks.

Jack: Premium, premium content. I have never felt worse. I had a flat inspection that day from the letting agent that we were renting from. And I just got back from the gym and I looked at my emails and it just said like research trip has been canceled. So I was like, "it's fine. It's fine." So I went, had a shower, came back through, and then I started processing it and just at that moment, the letting agent knocks on the door, and then she comes, she said, "I'm here for the inspection." And she walks up the stairs of my flat and finds me sitting on my bedroom floor in a towel, just sobbing, like, "I can't go and see the pangolin." and she's like, okay, and then she very quickly does it. She quickly goes and does a little run around the flat and then out in seconds. So really I could have had a real mess in there and they would never have cared. They were in and out, but you know, it's uh, so it was a moment.

Ellen: "You seem to be experiencing something"

Jack: "we're just going to leave you to it. Um, and just say, yeah, yeah, it's, it's fine."

Ellen: You know what that would have been a great moment for? A good wallow.

Jack: It would have been the perfect time for a wallow. It was, it was the closest I've ever been to a [00:12:00] wallow, just, um, but yes, so never got to go and see them. But the good thing was in the age of technology, we were able to do kind of camera trapping exercises, where we spoke to people in Namibia, uh, and we were each kind of a assigned animals to track and get photos of and all sorts of things. So I feel like while I didn't get to see it, I got a really good experience. I think it also taught me that, like, we don't have to be jet-setting around the world to learn about animals all the time, which I think is an interesting concept. And it also sent me down this path of like, I got the job I'm in now because I was good at online communication skills that I learned through studying the pangolin and through communicating with people all over the world during the pandemic. So while I didn't get to go on this trip and didn't get to form that physical connection necessarily, it's kind of led me down this like really good domino effect of like, oh, I got a job because of it other good things going on in my life that have all happened because of the pangolin and because of one research trip being canceled. So yeah.

Ellen: It sounds like you mastered the long distance relationship.

Jack: I think so. I think there's, it's the most successful relationship I've ever think I've had in my life. Um, but yes, mastered nailed, it a hundred percent. Um, it gave me a good excuse, I suppose not being able to go and see them in person if you're in the country and you're trying to organize physical meetings with people to discuss topics and things, it can be quite difficult to pin people down, but recording a podcast, the great thing -- we were able to just like email people in Hong Kong. We could email people in Namibia. We could email people wherever in the world they were and kind of chat to them. And so I think in Scotland, we have this [00:13:30] saying, what's for you, won't go by you. Which basically means if something is meant to happen, it will happen.

And when that was first said to me, I was like, but I wanted to go though. Like, whereas now it's kind of like, okay, now I've taken a step back and had kind of other kind of retrospective look and it's good. And yeah. Mastered the long distance.

Ellen: So for listeners who might be hearing your joy and love and passion for the pangolin and are perhaps listening and thinking, what on Earth is a pangolin. I've never heard of this thing in my life. Possibly might be thinking you are saying penguin, which I've had-- I've had that struggle in the past

Jack: Every single automatic transcript. Cause it was submitted as part of a dissertation, I had to write transcripts for all of my podcasts and Microsoft word, all the transcript is great until it replaces everything. It thinks I've written a dissertation about penguins that live in Namibia, which is just not no, no, no, no. Not a thing.

Ellen: That would be way bigger if true.

Jack: Yeah. I was going to say I made a great discovery. If there were penguins living in the deserts of Namibia, that would be, I'd be world renowned by this point, if that was a thing,

Ellen: We're not talking about penguins today, but folks might be listening and might be like, "what is this creature? I've never heard of this in my life." I don't feel like, you're not going to find them in, you know, baby's first animals. In fact, I have a memory of being in a biology lecture and one of my professor's slides had a picture of a pangolin on it when he was talking. I think he was talking about [00:15:00] keratin, which we'll get into later. I'm sure it will come up and had a picture of a pangolin on there, but he didn't say anything about it. It was just a picture on the slide. And I heard these two girls sitting behind me kind of whisper to each other. "They're like, what is that?" like, I don't know what that is. And one of them was like, "I think it's an armadillo?" Cause we have armadillos here. So they kind of see some similarity with the nine banded armadillo. But they were like, "I think it's an armadillo, no it kind of looks like an anteater, what is this thing?" And like, I knew what it was. And so I got to turn around and be like I said, "guys, y'all need to Google pangolin P A N G O L I N." I was like, "Google them, look up every picture you can, learn everything there has to know about this creature. I don't have time cause we're in the middle of the lecture. So I cannot info dump on you right now. But Google it, you will thank me later," but like people don't usually know what pangolins are. So if someone comes up to you and asks you, "what's a pangolin," what is your intro to, elevator pitch for the pangolin.

Jack: Okay. So I, uh, it's a hard one because as you say, no one knows and I've had similar experience where people, like the first time I showed them a picture, they'd be like, so are you studying like a reptile?

Because it has like, it looks like a, like it's got scales. Like, is it a lizard or is it like a, and it has the tongue, it has a very long tongue. So again, it looks kind of reptilian and you're like, no. So the pangolin, for anyone who doesn't know, is the world's only scaly mammal. They range in size for a couple of kilograms all the way up to about 33 kilograms, depending on the species, there are eight different species found across the [00:16:30] world four in Africa four in Asia, and they are really hard to describe if you imagine an armadillo, but with a kind of a longer kind of bulkier tail. And instead of bands, scales, almost like, well, they're not even really reptile because they don't stick flat down and they kind of stick out. So they are, they're hard to describe. And a lot of the time it just results in me going "google a picture, just go and Google a picture." Come back to me and we can talk about them for hours, but trying to get that initial image in someone's head is really hard to conjure up. So yeah, it's a small scaly mousy armadillo -y mammal.

Ellen: I feel like they look kind of, to me like, uh, an anteater with scale mail, like plate armor that has like the overlapping, like metal scales on it. Like, you'd see on some sort of knight in a fantasy movie or something.

Jack: Yes. And something actually, I've been listening to recent episodes that you've been releasing and Pokemon keeps being brought up.

Ellen: Oh yeah. Without fail.

Jack: Yes. So I'm going to continue that trend and say, if you love Sandshrew and Sandslash, like I do.

Ellen: Absolutely.

Jack: They are the pangolin of the Pokemon world, the kind of beigey mousy kind of sandy looking creatures. They don't entirely look like Sandshrew or Sandslash, but if there was a middle evolution for them, that's probably where the pangolin would land in this kind of strange kind of intersection of the two.

Ellen: They got the claws, they got the big scale. They dig in the sand.

Jack: The funny nose.

Ellen: There you go, that's Sandslash all the way.

Jack: Yeah. So for the people who, we've not isolated with that kind of [00:18:00] comparison, that's the perfect one. That's the best way to describe.

Ellen: And that is to say like, not all of the pangolin ones are digging around on the ground. Right? You mentioned the ones that you studied were in Namibia and the deserts. So there's a pangolins that are kind of, they walk in a really funny way where they kind of walk around on their back legs with their front legs, kind of like tucked up under them in a very cute way. But there's also pangolins that live up in the trees. Those are just delightful too.,

Jack: I think they're so special because it's like the designing of the pangolin has been perfected and then they've just altered it slightly for different areas and different places where they need to be. So, yeah, I kind of know a little bit about the tree dwelling. Semi arboreal pangolins they kind of live on the ground and then disappear up trees, they can help support their whole body weight by their tail. Which I think is really interesting and exciting and cool. Normally, I kind of said that like, oh, I think that's cool. Like I'm not on a podcast where everyone is going "this is really cool." like--

Ellen: We're all in this together.

Jack: We're in, we're knee deep in this now.

Ellen: Target audience acquired.

Jack: So they all kind of burrow and they'll kind of disappear underground, but there are some that will disappear up trees as well. The black bellied and white bellied pangolin and the African species will whoop! up trees. Um, and yeah, they can hang on from their tail. So I know a little bit, maybe not an expert, but I feel like the design is fairly transferable. It's just like these little variations between them that set them apart.

Ellen: Much in the way that Pokemon vary by region.

Jack: Exactly.

Ellen: I promise --

Jack: We're not getting into Alolan--

Ellen: This is not a Pokemon fan [00:19:30] cast um, I mean it a little bit is.

Jack: The one that I was kind of looking at is the Temminck's ground pangolin. But I'm the type of person where once I am studying, once something, once that door is opened, I'm going through all the different pathways and trying to find that. So, yeah.

Ellen: We're just neck deep in Wikipedia, got 40 tabs open at which I mean, listen, we've all been there. I've been there. If somebody were to try to like locate the pangolin on the mammal family tree, where would you find the pangolin, like what are its cousins? I like to think of this so that I can kind of understand, like, what is the evolutionary context that animal is in, like, and you'd look at a pangolin, and it might be kind of tough to figure out, right? You're like, you know, it hangs from its tail, like a primate, but it digs in the ground like a mole, but it also eats insects, like an anteater, like there's so much going on. Like where would you find the pangolin in our big family tree?

Jack: So this is going to confuse the situation even more. It's so bizarre right there. So you'd think polusa the anteaters. It would kind of fall boom, right in there with giant anteaters, all sorts of things. But in fact, closest relatives are carnivora, cats, dogs...

Ellen: Out of left field!

Jack: I don't know why. I don't know why! It just is kind of this bizarre. Like it shouldn't fit there in my mind. It shouldn't because it's an insectivore, it has the kind of long tongue, like the anteater.

It has the kind of scales, almost like an armadillo-esque type creature [00:21:00] and it just, yeah. It shouldn't fit there, but there is a near carnivora with everything. All those other things.

Ellen: Reminds me a little bit of, we were just talking with Dr. Christine Wilkinson about hyenas, and they mentioned aardwolves, which are hyenas and yet eat bugs. So they can have some interesting builds.

Jack: I'm, I'm really intrigued by this bizarre convergent evolution than wherever --evolution to me is something that I wish I could take, like a step back into the universe and look down and just watch. And I know, I don't know if you're familiar with the video game Spore. Oh, I played that game so much as a child.

Ellen: Oh my God. So much.

Jack: And so I wish there was kind of a real life Spore of like," how, how can I fully understand it?" I mean, there is the science textbooks out there that would explain it all to you, but it needs to be presented in that kind of Spore like easy way for me to fully process it.

Ellen: Staring at the pangolin like, "why are you like this?" I mean, I'm glad you are.

Jack: Especially cause like the typical armadillos and eaters are all kind of south Central American species. And then these guys are found across China, Indonesia, and a lot of Africa. So Africa and Namibia, that kind of area. So it really is kind of this weird convergence of similar traits in a very kind of different way. And so yeah, I find that to be bizarre, confusing, but somehow makes me love them more. Cause I'm like, I don't know what you are, but I just... Good for you.

Ellen: I love when the animals that are not related to each other and live nowhere [00:22:30] close to each other, occupy a similar niche in their ecosystem, like maybe they're performing a similar role or they have a similar job in the place where they live. And so, you know, you start to see these sort of eerily similar features that get copied and pasted just because that's what works best because of that tool. Right?

Jack: Yeah. If it's the best way to do it, of course. It just makes sense.

Ellen: You're going to get there eventually.

Jack: Yeah. And I think what's special to me about pangolin is that it seems to have picked the best and most interesting traits from a kind of variety of different things. So like with the burrowing and the climbing and the, the way that it rolls up and all of these sorts of it's like taking all the most charismatic, interesting traits from other animals and smoosh them together and going, "this is me, this is what I'm going to be".

Ellen: Well, let's get into it. Let's dig into these awesome, cool traits. If this is your first time listening to our podcast, what we do is we rate animals out of 10 in the categories of effectiveness, ingenuity, and aesthetics, starting with effectiveness, which for us is physical adaptation. So things that are built into the animal's body, like things that they have that let them do a good job at the things they're trying to do. They're trying to not get eaten by other things, get their food and get their prey, things that are built into their body that let them do their stuff. What do you give pangolins out of 10 for effectiveness?

Jack: I don't know if this is controversial and I don't know how many previous guests have come in with the big guns and gone "I believe my animal is best", but--

Ellen: Pretty much all of them, but it's okay.

Jack: Okay. Well, I'm going 10. I'm going [00:24:00] 10.

Ellen: You absolutely have every right to do that. And I did show my hand earlier by saying that I love them so much. So like I'm clearly going to let it slide.

Jack: Um, cause I've knocked a couple points off here and there in the next round. So don't worry. People are thinking he's just going to be biased to give them ten for everything, I'm not. But for effectiveness, I think physically the pangolin is adapted perfectly to where it is, what it needs to do, what it eats, how it protects itself, how it kind of raises its young. I can't think of any way to fault this physical design.

Ellen: This is what peak performance looks like.

Jack: Exactly. This is the Venus and Serena Williams of the animal world. The kind of top level. There's no one above.

Ellen: The platonic ideal of an animal.

Jack: Exactly, exactly what you want an animal to be, which might sound strange because I think a lot of people would think elephants or like, whales or like these big popular animals, they must be peaked because they are the most popular. No, it's the weird ones that are best. I have written down some things that I think make it special. First of all, it is the world's only scaly mammal. Which I think 10 out of 10, just for that, because of, if you're the only one, it makes you very special.

Ellen: How has everybody else not figured this out?

Jack: Exactly.

Ellen: What are you all dragging your feet on? Get with the program. I wish sometimes when I look at the way that pangolins have their scales, armadillos, have a carapace, porcupines have quills, looking at all of the different defenses that animals have in ways that they protect their body. I feel like humans sort of [00:25:30] didn't understand the assignment a little bit. I feel like we missed a class or two.

Jack: We're just squishy.

Ellen: And squishy everywhere!

Jack: Yes. Nothing, not a single part of us is designed to sit. Like if I fell off something I could die, this could drop out of a tree and we just keep on walking.

Ellen: No fall damage, zero.

Jack: So yeah, they kind of have scales along their entire body. And they're perfect design because they live in, as I've said, Africa and Asia, where there are large predatory animals and not just large predatory cat go for these guys, you'll have chimpanzees. You'll have all sorts of big, clever, smart thinkers, trying to work out how to get to them.

And so to have scales, which you can wrap yourself up in a ball, hide yourself away. You're instantly like a bowling ball. You're protected. You're fine. They're made of keratin. So same as things as like our fingernails, rhino horn...

Ellen: Hair.

Jack: Hair. Yes.

Ellen: I got it. It's right there.

Jack: We've all got a little bit of pangolin in there somewhere.

Ellen: We've got the making, see what we could have been. We could have had it.

Jack: Yeah. And instead we just use it to style and cut and look fabulous and pretty, but I'm like, we don't need that.

Ellen: Well, that part is pretty fun.

Jack: I mean, I am sitting here on the hottest day of the year, so far in Scotland, like sweating and my hair, like not looking at it's best.

Ellen: Speak for yourself. No, I've got, we got Florida humidity. It's, it's rough out there for people with curly hair like me. We could have had both, though!

Jack: Yeah, they have little hairs. They have little tufts of things sticking out so we could have done the same. And I think, yeah, it's this perfect [00:27:00] defense mechanism of wrap-up in a ball and that's just the first of the many features I think justified the 10 for the pangolin and someone I interviewed for my podcast, Dr. Morgan Hauptfleish, who works in the Namibia University of Science Technology, something he summed up perfectly for me and why they are so effective and brilliant is that they have a cumulative impact on their environments.

He would say as much as elephants. So yes, I think really interesting because their design doesn't just benefit them. It benefits everything round about them. So for example, you have things like they are, insectivores, they eat insects. They can have these big, strong claws that kind of dig away at the termite mounds or wherever it is they're trying to get their food. They have long tongues then that they can fwoop! in, grab the food out and pull it in. And then inside their bodies, they have spikes kind of down their digestive tract to grind everything up. Which I think is really interesting.

Ellen: That is interesting. I've never heard of that.

Jack: And the tongue goes all the way into their body. It's I think the length is at least the length of their body and it will roll up and they have a little special poach that they can hold that in.

Ellen: Mm, a tongue pouch.

Jack: I wish you hadn't phrased it like that because it was interesting until you went " mm, tongue pouch". That makes it weird. That makes it weird. Do we have to take a point off now? So yeah, they're designed in a way to perfectly get the food that they want. And that then knock on effect is insectivore is very important for controlling bug populations that were going to destroy habitats and do all sorts of things. So perfect for that. They also, one of their main activities is [00:28:30] burrowing. So in Namibia and other places where they need to get under the ground to kind of stay cool, have a constant temperature to look after their young, they're designed with these big claws to dig, get under there. And then obviously the knock on effect of that is then by digging boroughs, you provide shelter for other animals.

Things like porcupine, tortoises will hide away in them. They also turn up the land. So for plant life and things, keep things going that way. And obviously in places like Namibia as well, where there's very little rainfall, anything that lets water underground when it does fall and kind of soak it in is also a benefit for the ecosystem. So my argument there for 10 out of 10 is that they are perfectly designed for what they need to do. And then the knock on effect is then everything else benefits as well. So I think it's a strong one for me, personally.

Ellen: Such a good ripple in the pond. Like just a nice little pebble that falls into the pond and makes a big, beautiful ripple. You're talking about anything that lets water sort of soak up underground, do their boroughs flood?

Jack: I think in Namibia, they have been experiencing a lot of drought for the last few years. So whenever it does rain, I think it's less an issue of flooding and the way that I've always been kind of thinking about it is to get this water underground is a benefit. And I haven't actually thought too much about the flooding aspect. I mean, they're nocturnal, mostly nocturnal. They'll kind of come out sometimes a little bit earlier, a little bit later, but they are mostly nocturnal. So I suppose they're out and about a lot of the time they do have quite large home ranges. They'll dig burrows kind of freshly. So even if it does flood, I don't think it's that big of an issue for them.

Ellen: Maybe [00:30:00] they'll just move on. Find somewhere else.

Jack: I think they just move on. I don't think it's a huge issue.

Ellen: Okay. That's good to know.

Jack: I mean, well, there's this thing, you're like, it's not a huge issue, but also it's probably cause climate change, they don't have rain a lot. So it's kind of like, it is an issue because it's not great for them in terms of that, but yeah.

Ellen: Zoomed out, bad. Zoomed in, not that bad.

Jack: Yes. Yes, exactly.

Ellen: Okay. So the pangolin is great at digging in the ground and burrowing, they're great at eating bugs, are they sort of limited to just like ground-based movement or do they have a little bit of like ability to like climb trees or maybe swim?

Jack: They are shockingly swimmers. In terms of climbing trees, it's more of the kind of Asian species are semi arboreal. The kind of ground pangolins, giant pangolins I think stick mostly to the ground level. Um, just cause it's different habitats that they've adapted to, but in terms of water, they can hold air inside them and kind of float. They kind of help themselves kind of float along. So they are actually quite effective swimmers as well. So.

Ellen: That's so cute!

Jack: It's a bizarre one. And I think it's a strange thing because you think, why would they need to do this? This doesn't seem like something they would need to do, but they can do it!

Ellen: Just in case.

Jack: So again, they've chosen all the best elements of everyone else and smooshed it together to go "this is us and we're perfect."

Ellen: Yes, exactly. You mentioned that they're are nocturnal. And just thinking about the way that they look, I know that they have little tiny eyes, so I would assume they're not super great at seeing do they have ears?

Jack: So that has [00:31:30] actually reminded me of something I meant to say about eating bugs. Another plus for the pangolin is that when they are eating termites or insects that might sting or bite or be nasty to them, they have little muscles, so they can close up their nostrils and their ears so they can fwoop! them closed and then nothing can get in and bother them and sting or be nasty or leave any marks.

Ellen: Airtight.

Jack: Exactly. The argument for them is much like their nostrils. It's airtight. Like, there you go.

Ellen: Shut down!

Jack: Drop the mic right there, done.

Ellen: Does this like kind of render them like completely devoid of any sensory input? I would imagine if you're, you've got your eyes closed, ears closed. I mean, that kind of leaves you blind, right? Like going through with essentially no sort of sensory input.

Jack: I mean, I, I suppose it's when, when they're eating. So I suppose it's probably not the biggest of issues.

Ellen: But it's like, you're already eating. So like mission accomplished. What more do you need?

Jack: Exactly. And worst comes to worst. Someone grabs you, some big predator, it comes up behind you fwoop! into a ball, all bases covered. There you go.

Ellen: You're fine. 360 degrees of coverage that way. Did they ever use those big digging claws, like offensively? Like, is that also a weapon of sorts?

Jack: Something on my podcast, I was talking recently to Arnaud Desbiez who works on the Giant Armadillo Conservation Project and the Giant Anteater Project. We were talking about tamanduas and anteaters and kind of how they use those claws. They're kind of fairly docile, friendly, nice kind of creatures. But if you [00:33:00] kind of push them, they kind of do that thing where they stick their arms up and you kind of look a bit nasty.

Ellen: It's a famous meme.

Jack: Yes! And like, you don't want to mess with them when they do that, because those claws could take a serious chunk out of you if they got right in. I have not heard of stories of this, I think pangolins are very kind of defensive. And I think it doesn't work always in their favor. And I would have knocked a point off for that, but I think that's ingenuity like once they ball up, they kind of stick like that. And so they're easy to then pick up and take away. Cause they're not big fighters. They don't fight. They don't really flight. They just kind of hide. Yeah. It's not really an offensive tool.

Ellen: Sure. That makes sense. I mean, that brings us to ingenuity. I mean, let's go ahead and get into it, you know, ingenuity for us is behavioral adaptation. So this is things the animal is doing with their body to solve problems that they face. Not get eaten. That's again, you know, but these are the things that they're more actively doing. What would you give the pangolin out of 10 for ingenuity?

Jack: So this was a tricky one for me, because the problems that they make for themselves are not problems they have with other animals, necessarily their problems they have with one very big problem animal, which is us. So I feel like, I feel like I need to knock a couple points off, but also it's not really their fault. So I'm going to say I was giving them an eight for ingenuity, which I think is still a good mark. And I think it's still fair.

Ellen: Strong.

Jack: Yeah. And in terms of the plus sides, you've got things like the bowling behavior generally, usually pretty good. You've got the burrows to kind of keep [00:34:30] themselves and their young safe, so they'll burrow down. And the reason they do that is to kind of get to a cool temperature. They can hide their young, they have one occasionally to meet usually one Pango pup, which is the name of the babies at the time.

Ellen: Are you saying pango pup?

Jack: Yes.

Ellen: Wow.

Jack: Which is spectacular in the grand scheme of baby animal names.

Ellen: That's a great one.

Jack: Yeah. Puppies may be cute to look at and be like, oh, look at that puppy. No, but the name, no. Pango pup. Better. So they will bury under the ground. They carry their young on their back. So when the young are born they're very vulnerable, they're little, their keratin scales, they don't harden for a few days after they're born. So they're kind of squishy. So yes, they carry them on their back to keep them safe. So all kinds of ingenuity pluses, I would say there, but then the negative side of that is rolling up in a ball makes you an easy target for humans, because we can just come along, pick it up and do whatever we want with you.

Ellen: Now you're just portable.

Jack: Yes. And the main threats to pangolins are things like trafficking and so not great. And also this is kind of a sad fact about pangolin, which is a changing landscape, really affects them. And the bowling thing works really well most of the time, but not only does it open you up to being picked up and taken away when an electric fence or something comes along and divides, your habitat, the problem pangolins have is their protective behavior. Obviously balls up, they will kind of walk into a electric fence. If they hit that they're not like a big deer or an [00:36:00] elephant that will kind of bounce off. They called their little hands up in front of them. And so what they'll do is they'll hit the wire, hold it, and then they're scared. So they'll ball up and wrap around the wire and then electrocute themselves. And that's a huge issue like in South Africa, about 13% of pangolins a year are taken out by electric fences. And so it's a huge, huge issue. And it's one of those things where it's like, they can't really be blamed for that. That's not their fault that a fence is across their landscape, but it does go to show the weak spot of the defense mechanism of balling up in that you're portable, and that when you hit something that gets inside that ball, it's not beneficial. So it was hard to take points off them for things that aren't their fault.

Ellen: Right, yeah, it's not the most foolproof possible strategies . You mentioned earlier that they're up against some very clever predators in their range, like chimpanzees. Can you think of any instances of like a predator that has like figured out the pangolin? I know sometimes for something like an armadillo or something, there will be some predators that have figured out how to flip the armadillo over or maybe get underneath them. Or sometimes you'll see this happen where like a predator will figure out a counter to the animal's like strategy. Can you think of any examples of a predator outsmarting the pangolin or otherwise like getting through those defenses?

Jack: In terms of like larger predators, I think lions and larger cats have a big problem because really they are restricted to the ways that they can get into that ball.

Ellen: Not high dexterity.

Jack: Chimpanzees, I think a bit more clever. They have a bit more use [00:37:30] of kind of pulling things apart and getting in and about, but actually the kind of, one of the main threats, I think in terms of animal things that can take advantage of the pangolin is the scales. The way that they line up there are gaps of fleshiness in there. And so different sorts of parasites can get in. And I think particularly for young animals, that's an issue when they kind of fall under the scales or if they get in the center, It's not necessarily the big animals you would think about that are going to come along and outsmart them. It's the little things that can sneak through to the defenses.

Ellen: It's Luke Skywalker getting into the, a little vent on the death star. Exactly.

Jack: That's the perfect, because it's, the ball is the Luke Skywalker shooting that one little whoomp! down, use the force kind of hope for the best moment. Yes. So I would say bigger predators, not too much. I mean, we've talked about this on my podcast a lot.

We have a series called ReZOO where we talk about, uh, we review zoos, which I think is not as good a pun as yours, but it's good fun. She is terrified of chimpanzees, my cohost, Jodi, because she just doesn't like this. She thinks they're big and they're smart. And they're strong.

Ellen: Is it maybe an uncanny valley thing?

Jack: Maybe? I mean, I wouldn't want to see the fight between a pangolin and a chimpanzee, cause I don't think it would end particularly well for the pangolin but the scales, they do what they can, they do what they can.

Ellen: Yeah. And they are, you know, by rolling up in a ball, they are sort of maximizing the level of coverage they're getting. It's not like they're just kind of relying on it passively. They're actually like, okay, I have these skills. I can use them to the most possible advantage by just closing up all those gaps and go and full defense [00:39:00] mode.

Jack: Yes, exactly.

Ellen: Like a turtle strategy where you like load up all, like you put all of your points into defense and you don't do anything. Just like stop and wait and let the enemy like tire themselves out and exhaust all their resources. And then once they're like weakened and you're like, boom.

Jack: But the thing is they don't have the boom. They, they will just kind of go "is it gone yet? Uh, okay, now we're good. We're good."

Ellen: They're like the pacifist, they're so peaceful. I mean, we're not ants or termites. So to us they seem very benign and passive and peaceful and gentle. Um, if we were termites, we would probably see them quite differently.

Jack: Yeah. Actually, that's a very good point. It's all about perspective. It's all about perspective. And you know, if, if it was Just The Zoo Termites Of Us, that would not, that would be...

Ellen: Any termites listening, I'm so sorry. This is probably a rough episode for you.

Jack: Deep condolences to the 20,000 of you a night that get eaten by pangolin. I'm so sorry. So sorry.

Ellen: Menace to the termite community.

Jack: I was going to say if we did an in memoriam, like the Oscars type style, black and white images of termites, we'd be here for about six years. So we can't even.

Ellen: Do a slide show the best of, but it's just like the same termite over and over again.

Jack: Just from different angles. They'll never know. They'll never know. Just use the same picture.

Ellen: They can't tell. So the last category that we rate our animals on that, I feel like I have strong feelings about the pangolin in this category, is aesthetics.

Jack: Now, that's interesting.

Ellen: I have a [00:40:30] feeling, I probably know where you're going to go with this, but what do you give the penguin out of 10 for aesthetics?

Jack: Well, I, this was my lowest category, so I don't know. I'm intrigued ...

Ellen: That's surprising to me. I promise I'm not going to be mad at you. It's okay.

Jack: So the reason I put it lowest is that yes, it has the pluses of the, I'm building the tension there. So you can finally hear the number in a second. The reason that I kind of put it lowest is that yes, it has the scales. Yes, it has the cuteness, which is a plus, but listening to recent episodes about things like jewel wasps, or like the most gorgeous, beautiful thing in the world in terms of colors and showing off. Pangolins are mostly brown beigey, dull kind of colors. They're not a big show.

Ellen: Gotcha.

Jack: So in terms of aesthetics, while it's pleasing and interesting, it's not like a, I was going to say, this is how, you know, I'm too into animals. I was going to say, it's not a cassowary and then some people are gonna to go like, cassowaries aren't good looking. But to me, they are, to me, they are. So, yeah.

Ellen: It's the bright blue. It does something.

Jack: Exactly, the kind of crest, it's not got that kind of showiness to it. And so that's why I have, I mean, I'm building this up to be like a two, it's not two, it's like a seven.

Ellen: That's good still!

Jack: Uh, I think I was trying to think of like, if I was reading, like I'm a big like movie person. And like, I like to like come away from a movie and be like less than five is like, okay to bad, five and above like five is like ehhh, six is fine. Seven I think is good,

Ellen: But could be better.

Jack: Eight, great. Nine, excellent, 10, [00:42:00] perfect. So for me, I think it's good. Not great. So that's why I feel that. Yes. So I don't know. What were your strong opinions?

Ellen: So, earlier you were talking about how, like you did a lot of different things, but like animals were always sort of the thing you came back to. And, you know, I've gone through a lot of times in my life where I focused on different hobbies, like creative hobbies. So I've done art and photography and, you know, all sorts of different stuff. And one of my favorite drawings I've ever made was a drawing that I did of the pangolin and I immediately regretted starting this drawing because then I realized I had to draw every single scale and then I shaded it with stippling. So I had to draw little tiny dots on every single scale and shade, every scale individually with dots, which is a terrible idea, and I'm quite pleased with how it turned out, it ended up looking very nice, but it took me many, many hours.

And just throughout the process, I think of like drawing that it made me really focus on the individual little pieces of the pangolin and like, the reason I think they're so beautiful to me is that first of all, they have so many curves, you know, like everything about them has a sort of swooping like curve to it. Almost like, like a golden ratio sort of thing. You know, like it has that sort of very smooth because they have like a dome shaped back, but then also a curvy tail, their nose is curved their like claws are curved. And like everything kind of follows this sort of like flowing emotion to them. And then just like the icing on the cake for me is [00:43:30] their scales because they look to me like, like flower pedals. Maybe Lotus pedals or something, just because of the way that they overlap. But they also slightly like float over each other, you know, like they're not completely touching and it just looks like a, maybe a less romantic way to say it would be a pine cone. Still look like a pine cone..

Jack: The nicknames come in thick and fast for them. So like their name pangolin comes from the Malay word pengguling, which means to roll up, makes sense, but like the nicknames are like scaly ant eater, like walking pine cone, like all comes together in the aesthetics category. All makes sense when you're like, yeah. Okay. Yeah. But no, I think that's a very romantic, but beautiful. Like I see that, like I do see that and I do think I agree, but I had to be harsh in a category. So I have to, like, I had to be cruel.

Ellen: I don't say this to try to change your mind. This is not, I'm not, I'm not trying to convince you or anything. This is just, these were all like thoughts that I have about them when I look at them that I just, like, haven't had an excuse to, to like put into words on the podcast yet. So I'm just like, while we're here, here's all my thoughts and feelings.

Jack: Exactly, exactly. Get them out now. And then yeah, if you do, you'll have, we'll have to do a pangolin part two once we play, because I feel like I can tell that you're excited by it, so you were like, "we'll have somebody!"

Ellen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, you mentioned there's eight different species of penguins, so.

Jack: We need to get specific.

Ellen: Yeah. There's room to zero in on them.

Jack: Eight episode series, there you go.

Ellen: I'm not opposed. Um, but yeah, I, you know, I, I do see what you mean. I will concede there are, they don't have the flashy colors. They don't [00:45:00] have the flashy markings, would love to see a little bit of creativity. Can you imagine if they had all that stuff going for them and also some sort of like beautiful, bright, like coloration.

Jack: I mean, it would probably not work in their favor.

Ellen: You are correct.

Jack: But also it's like, it's one of the, it's such a hard category to rank aesthetics. Cause you're like, for me personally, they're not exciting to look at necessarily in terms of colors, but that's the point, right? It's like watching a black and white film. You're like, oh, well it was meant to be like this, but also, I prefer if it was in color, but also it might not actually be better if it was in color, like this weird, like--

Ellen: "Was this the artist's vision?"

Jack: Yeah. And for like, for me, like I had, I feel like I'm a very visual person. Like I like visually stimulating things. And so there is a lot to look at, but do like a tie dye one or something.

Ellen: Just one. Do a limited edition release of one--

Jack: Come up with a new pangolin.

Ellen: Get our scientists on it. Immediately.

Jack: Ship them off to Jurassic park or something. Get them to work on it. It'll be fine.

Ellen: I do think that like with the way that the scales are so like geometrically placed and aligned is like mesmerizing. I feel like you could just stare at them all day. Like you can kind of get lost in them. It's perfect.

Jack: And the fact that they then ball up perfectly and it doesn't look like when a hedgehog or something kind of, you kind of got spikes and it looks great aggressive and like armadillos have this similar thing going for them that when they ball up, they kind of just look like a little orb. So it's not unique to them that they can just from fwoomp away into this little so kind of [00:46:30] orb, but it kind of, yeah. I mean.

Ellen: Become orb.

Jack: Become orb. I mean, one more bad news story and that's going to be me. You'll never see me again. Just become orb, that's, it that's me.

Ellen: This whole episode has just been as pondering the orb.

Jack: The orb. That's just, I feel like there's a whole series there as well for you. You can just do creatures that become orbs.

Ellen: And we call it pondering the orb. Pondering my orbs, the series.

Jack: Yeah, that's the one.

Ellen: We've done roly-polies so we'll do like roly polies, uh, armadillos. We got all sorts of conglobating friends. I love that word. Conglobate. Do you guys use that word a lot?

Jack: I've never heard it before, but I think I'm now going to use it for everything because Wordle was expanding my vocabulary already, but it was stuck to five letter words. This is great. This is much better. This is the level I need.

Ellen: I try to make sure we, uh, learn a new vocab word every single day. That's what people come here for is vocab lesson actually.

Jack: Nothing to do with the animals.

Ellen: No, the animals are just a context to put your new vocab words in. You mentioned that you work with conservation for pangolins. So what is the conservation situation looking like for pangolins in the world?

Jack: So this is like my big, because I've worked in zoos and aquariums, all these things. I think conservation has to be the heart of everything we kind of do because if people come and see these animals and whatever it is in a zoo, and there's no purpose to it, it just falls flat. And it's, there's no point in [00:48:00] having the zoo at all. So I think it's really important to kind of, whenever you're talking about animals, place that in context, place this kind of conservation message around them. And I think for the pangolin it's so, so important. As I've said before, I think I mentioned they're the most traffic mammal in the world, and that might sound like, oh, that's just kind of one of those buzz word titles that they put on things, but that is not the case at all. Over the last 20 years, about a million pangolins have been taken from the wild, so much so that kind of the trade has shifted. They've exhausted the species that are in Asia, they are, I think three of the four species are listed as critically endangered by the International Union for the Conservation of Nature. The fourth species is listed as endangered. So they're kind of spent in terms of being taken and so turned to the African species. So they were kind of getting hit with the trafficking and all the other threats and kind of the changing landscape, as I mentioned with the fencing before, it's not a good situation for them. In the African species I believe two are endangered, two are vulnerable, so it's not a great picture for the pangolin. And I think I like, I love them so much.

And I think there's a lot that everyone can do for them. The major threats are things like trafficking, which I didn't know how individuals could deal with trafficking on a day-to-day basis. I wasn't aware of that until I spoke to someone on my podcast, all about trafficking and they were talking about how trafficking in terms of animals takes place along the same channels as artwork, as drugs, as all of the other sorts of trafficking that goes on. So if you see anything that could have been trafficked, if you see someone who perhaps looks like they're in a situation [00:49:30] where maybe they kind of are in a dangerous situation and without getting too dark flagging trafficking, or movement of things illegally in any way, it can help to bring down the trade of animals and the trade of pangolins. Here in Europe, it's not as big of an issue, but a lot of trade going to Asia because they have the keratin scales they kind of are used in a lot of traditional medicines. So there's that kind of element going on there.

Other threats, things like hunting for bushmeat and things is a lot less, but I think it gets grouped in the big threats. And then you have the changing landscape. So climate change with the building of habitat fragmentation and things like that. There's all sorts of things going on that are kind of changing the landscape, changing the areas that they can move and live in. And so it's a huge, huge issue. All of those little things that when people say recycle or reuse or do this for the next that they all go on to impact more species than just the big charismatic megafauna that you see advertised, it affects more than just tigers and elephants and whales. It affects the little things like the pangolin as well, which are so important. Amazing.

Something that I like to highlight, especially in terms of the pangolin, because they are, the kind of leaving message of conservation for them is when you're talking about pangolin, I think a lot of the time it's talked about in a way that blames or points the finger at certain groups of people. Points a finger at China or Vietnam because they do this or they do that, or they do the next thing. And I think that's a really dangerous narrative to establish because when you start pointing fingers at whole countries, that's not how conservation and the consumption of animals and wildlife products actually works. It's kind of like one of those things [00:51:00] that if you demonize all these people, it can be really dangerous. And it kind of disincentivizes the people who are blamed and it can turn into borderline if not full racism or offensiveness, if you are kind of pointing these fingers. So be careful when you're phrasing, pangolins are trafficked or pangolins are doing this or pangolins are being used in these ways by these communities, or they say, be careful how you speak about it and do your research before you really start pointing the finger, because the waters are very muddy there. And it's not just everyone is using pangolins in the countries where they're being shipped to. It's not that at all. So that's kind of my other message I like to highlight is just be like really careful with how you freeze the messaging around certain things, because it can get dangerous and a bit, phrasing can be a bit funny in terms of wildlife conservation.

I guess that kind of links back to the politics of, I think there's the benefit of having a kind of political minded, my like conservation minded, all of these minds coming together. I'm like, please just speak kind to one another when you're talking about conservation and just be aware that we don't have to fight each other to make positive things.

Ellen: Like this was something we were talking also to Dr. Christine Wilkinson about was that, um, you know, conservation requires a lot more human empathy than I think is usually presented.

Jack: Yes. There's some things where it can be confusing, why people use keratin for traditional medicines or whatever it is, but shouting out them maybe isn't the best solution, like having to sit down and having a discussion. And I think, especially when it comes to like, there's often pictures painted of kind of groups in Africa, kind of like, oh, they use pangolin for traditional ceremonies, but at the end of the day, and this is coming from someone who loves them more [00:52:30] than anything else in the world, one pangolin being taken from the wild is not going to end the species forever and ever and ever. It's when it gets scaled up and kind of all of these threats combine that then becomes an issue. And so it's really this kind of tricky, complex muddied narrative that you've got to pull apart, these threats. And so just be careful who you're talking to and talking about and who you're including in the discussion about conservation, because it's something that's really important to me to try and highlight. I don't know. It's something that I like to think about a lot. Yeah.

Ellen: Yeah. And here in here in the United States, too, so we talk about is how, like people that are indigenous to this area have been in equilibrium with these animals for thousands of years. So, cultures and customs have been in a state of balance for so long. And then once industrialism starts to play a role in it, everything gets just scaled up way beyond what the ecosystem can handle.

Jack: Yeah. And I think the best thing we can do, I kind of took a dive into like the negatives, but I think the positives that we have to kind of lift back up in is that there are so many ways that we can support the pangolin positively in things like, yeah. Changing your behavior to do with climate change. Just talking about the pangolin and other unusual creatures, I think is so important because even the big charities, obviously you see kind of them promote tigers or whatever it is. I keep bringing them up and they are important and they're wonderful and they're fantastic. There are other animals out there suffering as well. So talk about the weird things. Talk about the weird stuff that people don't think about and bring that stuff up. Yeah. Support charities that maybe are developing new eco-friendly fencing because obviously we talked about habitat fragmentation being an issue. There are [00:54:00] fences that can be employed and used in ways that allow pangolins underneath so they can just scooch underneath. So there's all of these different things and charities and stuff. You can kind of support in a positive, more uplifting way. Then it's all doom and gloom. It's not all doom and gloom. There is a lot you can do to help save these wonderful, beautiful, amazing things.

Ellen: I love a healthy dose of conservation optimism.

Jack: Yes, I think that's, I just had Julia Migne from Conservation Optimism, the kind of like University of Oxford kind of movement on my podcast. And she's just like, yeah, we were, I came away from the conversation like I often get down in the dumps about certain things and I think it's. Yeah. You feel your feelings and feel the emotions and feel the anger or the sadness or the confusion about conservation, whatever it is. But the end of the day, try and frame it in a positive way. Cause like you just get on so much better. If you're positive, you make more positive connections, you meet more amazing people and you just get along better in life. If you try and frame it in a positive way, all right.

Ellen: Or in like a hopeful way, right? That's like, there are things we can do. You don't have to just, well have yourself a wallow, wallow it out, wallow it out. And then, and then we'll all pitch in to make everything better for everybody.

Jack: Exactly. You can tell you've done 150 of these cause you're able to link back to the very first thing we talked about. So smoothly.

Ellen: Callback baby! Comedy 101.

Well, Jack, I would love it if you could let folks listening know, where they can find your podcasts, where they can hear more of your [00:55:30] conservation work and listen to more about pangolins and all the other delightful critters that you spotlight on your show, let folks know where they can find you.

Jack: Yes. So thank you, everyone. For anyone who's kind of forgot my name throughout, I am Jack Baker. Yeah. I host Pangolin: the Conservation Podcast, which is a look at all underappreciated under acknowledged members of the conservation community, whether that be unusual species. So we focused on things like armadillos, bison reintroduction, we've talked about interesting, weird things. Water voles, red pandas we've talked about, but animals that are kind of popular. So we talked about giraffes, but we kind of reframed it on like, looking at how conservation, people don't appreciate how endangered giraffes are. So we sometimes focus around weird animals or conservation stories. We also focus around people. So, and we talk about communities that are affected by conservation. We talk about people who are experiencing drought and how they are forced into these kinds of wildlife conflicts and how we can resolve that element. So all these kinds of underappreciated elements are up for discussion.

And the first six episodes are all about the pangolin. Um, so if you have gotten a taste, they have experts on every episode. It's not just me. I sit and interview someone much like this, every episode, some of my favorites about tapirs and koalas and all sorts of stuff. So lots of good stuff going on over at Pangolin: the Conservation Podcast, which is on Spotify, Google podcasts, wherever you're listening to this, it's probably on there as well.

Ellen: I've had a lot of people like reach out to us and let us know that like listening to this podcast has made them feel like they want [00:57:00] to get back into either studying or working with wildlife, you know, or doing something that can help make the world a better place for animal friends. So, um, you know, that's an awesome way to start.

Jack: Yeah. And I think it's good for me and I, listeners, you are coming on a journey with me. Cause I just get, I basically send invites out to people who inspire me and I'm like, they say yes and then I'm like, okay, I'm going to ask them all the questions I've always wanted to ask. So it's, it's a great time. It's sometimes a laugh, sometimes more serious, sometimes whatever it is, but I just like it's, it's great. I love it. I mean, not to bring myself up. It's about like, I just love having the conversations. I hope people like listening.

Ellen: No, hype yourself up. That's, set those expectations sky-high.

Jack: Exactly. And if you want to reach out to me to chat about anything, if you have questions about what I've said, you can get me on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, I'm @pangolinpodcast on all of them. So reach out, tell me you love pangolins, tell me you disagree with something I've said, my rankings, ratings, whatever it is, I'm more than happy to hear it and I will discuss. More than happy to discuss. And yeah.

Ellen: Well, thank you so much, Jack. I highly recommend, um, I'll have links to everything in the show notes as well. So anybody listening to this episode can open that up and click right on through. Uh, thank you so much for your time and your knowledge today. I'm glad I saved pangolins. Because this feels so fulfilling. It feels like a culmination of like [00:58:30] what, uh, what we've been waiting for, baby.

Jack: Well, I'm so glad --I hopefully you're smiling. But you might just be being polite. I hope all the listeners are also smiling and were not disappointed.

Ellen: Oh I'm not just polite.

Jack: And there's, there's so much more out there about them to learn. And this has just been like, I feel like we've recorded for an hour, but we could have gone for 2, 3, 4 or five hours if we really want it to get into the nitty gritty. So, or worst comes to worse, you can come on my show and we can talk about it. Then--

Ellen: The overflow!

Jack: The overflow, just like people can come to this one part one, and then any questions you had leftover, we can do questions.

Ellen: Absolutely! Well, thank you so much for your time, Jack. It's been a delight and we will catch you later. Thank you so much.

Jack: Thank you. And thanks everyone for listening. Hopefully you'll hear me again soon.

Ellen: Absolutely. Thanks Jack! Bye!

Thank you so much for listening friends. I hope that by now you have fallen in love with the pangolin along with us. If you liked what you heard today, it would mean a lot to us if you could leave us a five-star review on your podcatcher. If you happen to use Podchaser, for every review left on their website during the month of April, they're donating to World Central Kitchen to help feed Ukrainian refugees. And I'm also replying to reviews to double the donation. So find us on Podchaser to review us for a good cause. I'm also gathering questions for an upcoming Q&A episode. So if you are curious about me or Christian or our podcasting journey, or pretty much anything, please send in those [01:00:00] questions.

We are on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, you can send us an email at ellen@justthezooofus.com if you have any questions or a cool animal you'd like to hear about. Finally, we'd like to say thank you to Maximum Fun for having us on their network, alongside their other wonderful shows like the ones that you have heard promos for here today, you can check them out and learn more about the network over at maximumfun.org, and while you're there, please consider signing up for a membership to keep us going along with the rest of the shows on the network. Lastly, we would like to thank Louie Zong for our incredible theme music. That is all for today. We'll see you next week! Thank you! Bye!