145: Owl Monkeys w/ Alexi Grousis!

Ellen: Hello my friends and welcome to episode 145 of Just the Zoo of Us. This week I'm talking with one of the hosts of the We Out Here podcast, a zookeeper and storyteller who's joining us to talk about a unique and mysterious creature bouncing around rainforest canopies by the light of the moon: owl monkeys. We talk about how owl monkeys have adjusted to thriving in the twilight, what's going on behind those big, beautiful eyes and what it's like to work with these little fluffy forest sprites. Just the Zoo of Us presents: owl monkeys with Alexi Grousis.

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Ellen: Hey everybody. This is Ellen Weatherford. I'm here with your favorite animal review podcast, it is Just the Zoo of Us. And this week I am so excited to bring to y'all. Alex Grousis, say hi, Alexi.

Alexi: Hey, howdy, thanks for having me on Ellen.

Ellen: Thank you so much for being here. Can I get your pronouns real quick?

Alexi: Yeah, my pronouns are he him and his.

Ellen: Thank you so much. And Alexi, I know you from Twitter. I think a lot of people who frequent science Twitter have probably seen you on there because you're just about the funniest person in the universe.

Alexi: Ah shucks.

Ellen: Aside from that, you're also an animal professional and a nature story teller. Before we talk about our really cool animal for today. What got you started down this path of like animal and nature fandom, I suppose?

Alexi: Yeah. Yeah. So I was a kid who was lucky enough to have green spaces around the neighborhood that I lived in. Though I didn't necessarily have like forest nearby. My friends and I, as kids would, you know, we'd run around the neighborhood playing spies, which I don't know how many of y'all actually had that game as well, but it really was just a bunch of kids being weird creeps , but we would run around like quote- unquote spying. And then what we would do is we'd also, you know, go into the bushes and go into anywhere where there were things that we could turn over. I had a big backyard. And so this one is actually like horrifying as an adult, but my brother and I would dig these trenches and would make these very complex routes through the dirt, in my backyard, creating like these roads, we, you know, we imagine ourselves like building a city and then we would set the hose up and then would run water through and just watch how the water moved. Really fun as a kid. But keep in mind, I grew up in central California and that is a nightmare for me now as an adult, knowing the water situation there, but.

Ellen: You were just casually terraforming.

Alexi: Yeah, exactly. Just, I don't know how many gallons of water I wasted as a child. And I hope that my mom never connected me to those water bills cuz I'm sure they were a nightmare.

Ellen: You think they were just looking at their utilities every month? Like "I don't get it."

Alexi: Yeah, they had to be like, we had to have a massive leak. That's probably the thing they suspect the most. Not realizing that I filled a three foot, you know, space with just water watching it run.

Ellen: It was just your system of aqueducts.

Ellen: Yeah, exactly.

Alexi: I was a Roman emperor in my smaller was it was irrigation project. Uh, so those were, those were some of my first interactions with like nature and like the physics of the world around me, you know, I love flipping over rocks and seeing what bugs were underneath. Uh, if I had a good log nearby, I love turning it over. Uh, one of those like special memories of growing up in the central valley, which doesn't happen enough any longer, uh, is that every year during the winter, we have, uh, Tule fog that, uh, rolls down the mountain into the valley. And the visibility in that fog could be counted in feet.

Ellen: Whoa.

Alexi: Yeah. It's deeply foggy in that area and is becoming less so with climate change. But during that time in Fresno, which is a very arid, you know, region in central California, you know, you'd start seeing frogs pop up. You know, and I was like, this is the desert. And all of a sudden there are frogs, you know, popping up in my yard because you know, everyone tried to have lawns cuz this is America. Uh, but you know, in some spaces where you just don't wanna have lawns, you just have like these rock gardens or like dirt gardens. And the dirt during those really wet cold periods, the dirt goes from being brown to becoming bright neon green from all the mosses that have laid dormant for the whole year.

Ellen: Oh, that's wild.

Alexi: Yeah. The most beautiful time in Fresno, California, and in the central valley hands down is the winter time. You know, a lot of people don't like the cold, but I'm like, it's the only time where things turn truly green in that area. It's amazing. It's beautiful.

Ellen: I bet the frogs were just going nuts.

Alexi: Aw man. Yeah, absolutely. You know, those like the late winter in that February, March area was like, ah, that was prime frog season.

Ellen: That's so funny. It's the opposite of what we have here in Florida, in Florida in the summer is when, you know, it'll rain for like a good three hours every afternoon. And so in the summertime is when, like at night the frogs are just deafening, like we're right up against a pond. So on summer nights we have to like blast the TV volume as loud as possible. If we wanna hear it over the frogs. Yeah. Cause they're like deafening out there.

Alexi: Yep. Yeah. Having moved down into the Gulf south region, those afternoon storms and like the consistency of them was mind blowing to me. I don't know what people who moved directly from the desert into this place must think. Cuz fortunately I had a transition over seven years in the Midwest, but yeah, those afternoon showers that are consistent here and like deafening. Powerful. It's like a February, March in Fresno every single day.

Ellen: It sounds like you kind of had like a tour of the different ecosystems of the continent going from like the desert to the Midwest to Louisiana.

Alexi: Yeah. Yeah. I, well, I. Not enough. There are so many biomes and ecosystems in the United States that I still have never gazed upon aside from seeing them in like, you know, zoo books or something like that. so, you know, one of these days I'm gonna see it all. I'm gonna treat this like my little Pokedex, and I'm gonna see every single eco type that we got. Uh, but for now I've had a nice little, you know, glimpse of the great Plains. I've seen the, you know, the arid valleys in the central valley. Uh, the cool thing about the central valley is it's at the foot of the Sierra Nevadas so you can slide right up the mountain and see some beautiful stuff up there.

Ellen: Oh, I bet you see the coolest critters.

Alexi: Ah, man, truly, but you know, the, at the age that I was going up there, I was really, uh, I was really focused on running and jumping. And so every critter that was nearby me was, was gone. They, they were in a mad dash to get away from me.

Ellen: That is just simply the backdrop for the parkour, uh, routine that you're running.

Alexi: Ah, Absolutely. And I was a loud child during most times that I would've been able to actually see these animals. So they, they saw me far before I ever saw them.

Ellen: I guess that's probably good for them. Right. That gives them an early warning system.

Alexi: Absolutely. It's a great way to avoid, you know, bear interactions and mountain lion interactions as well. You know, being a little bit loud can actually keep you safe.

Ellen: We should all channel youthful, Alexi joy when we go out into wilderness so that all the critters know to maintain their space.

Alexi: Yeah. Unless you are birding or herping , if you're birding that's not gonna, you're not gonna see anything.

Ellen: Oh, that's true. But so these days now you, uh, mentioned that you are in Louisiana then working with animals, yeah?

Alexi: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I work a lot with nocturnal animals and venomous snakes in Louisiana. One of the nicest little gifts I've gotten from nature was I actually saw a wild corn snake while in Gulf Breeze, Florida, a couple weeks back.

Ellen: Wow.

Alexi: Yeah. It's one of those animals. I see them in captivity so often that I don't really consider them a wild animal, even though they definitely are a wild animal. Uh, you know, conceptually in my brain, I just don't register them as such, but then I saw this wild corn snake and I was like, wow, that is an orange animal. That it just was there on the ground in front of me. It was mind boggling. Beautiful. Ah, I love snakes. They're they're wonderful. They're one of those animals that like, if you've ever had the privilege of touching a snake in a situation that was non dangerous, uh, and non-medical inducing, ah, man, that's like stroking the hand of God, you are touching some of something that is so soft and so beautiful and so unique. It's an animal on land that has adapted to having no limbs and having more ribs than you can count. And they're just spectacular, man.

Ellen: Frankly. It's so brave of them.

Alexi: It truly is right. Oh man. Like chin to the ground moving.

Ellen: They're so cool. I feel like it feels soothing. Mm-hmm like, if you get a chance to feel a snake, it feels like the same effect as like a worry stone.

Alexi: Yeah. Yeah. And we see snakes and think that they're slimy all the time, but they're actually very dry, very smooth. I think we think they're slimy because of how shiny they are. That just means they're kitted up. That means they got the good scales. They're clean, fresh.

Ellen: They're lovely, delightful creatures. I could talk to you about snakes all day long because we have some beautiful snakes here in Florida as you do in Louisiana. But today we're talking about a monkey, which I have to admit, you told me the other day that you wanted to talk about this monkey and I had never heard of it in my life. So I'm a complete blank slate! Today, we're talking about owl monkeys. For people listening, who like me are like, what are you talking about, Alexi? What is an owl monkey?

Alexi: So an owl monkey is a spectacular genus. You know, an entire group of monkeys from south America that are almost exclusively nocturnal. And I say almost exclusively because there's one of 'em that is cathemeral, which means it's active pretty much whenever, uh, day, night, dusk, dawn.

Ellen: Just when the spirit moves them.

Alexi: Exactly. When the vibe is right, they get going. Uh, so owl monkeys are a pretty small, very small monkey. They're about as big as an adult human's like forearm, if they're not standing all the way up, they're a little bit taller. If they're standing all the way up.

Ellen: Is that including or not including the tail?

Alexi: Uh, the tail is probably roughly, almost the length of your wrist to your shoulder.

Ellen: Oh, wow.

Alexi: It's a, it's not a terribly long tail, but it's pretty long in proportion to their body, but yeah, they're a mobile little monkey that. Pretty high up in the canopy in the rainforests of South America and a really cool thing about them that makes them also fairly unique among primates is that they are a, what is considered a genetically monogamous species, which means that they tend to form these pair bonds that are able to be seen through their DNA. Like you can track the, um, the family lines and lineages through that. You can see genetic evidence of monogamy, which is pretty interesting. Yeah, you can see bodily structures that represent that, but what's really, really cool when you are first looking at 'em is their massive eyes. Their eyes take up a huge amount of space in their head. And for obvious reasons, they're active at night and they need to see a lot. But that being said, even though they're active at night, it doesn't mean that they prefer the entire darkness because they are a monkey. They do some pretty incredible leaps through the canopy. So they actually, a lot of them we're finding, they are most active during like a full moon. So they're active at the right amount of light. Mm. So that they can judge those jumps. They can see their partners, which is really important. Uh, and they can find food.

Ellen: Oh, okay. So rather than like going all in and being like thriving in complete darkness, mm-hmm, like they can, they can get around well with like a little bit, because you mentioned like a full moon, right. When the moon is full, you're getting a lot of that moon light. So like, it is a significantly brighter night than if you were, for example, a new moon when the moon was not shining.

Alexi: Exactly. Yeah.

Ellen: Interesting. But they don't, they don't like that, like total darkness? Yeah.

Alexi: They don't like the total darkness. They haven't, yeah, like you're saying they haven't fully invested in darkness.

Ellen: A little bit. They stuck their toe in.

Alexi: Yeah, exactly. They're like, I like it a little dark, but not too much. Yeah. And that's because you know, the darkness is while it can be really good for hiding from predators, it also means that you can't see your predators as well. Uh, and a lot of monkeys, like humans also, uh, have very short snouts, so they don't have this incredible ability to smell their predators from far off. Their gen name is aotus, uh, which actually translates. I think that's might be Latin, maybe it's Greek, but it means essentially earless. And it's not that they don't have ears. It's just that they're very fluffy and they have ears that aren't super big. So they look like they have no ears, so they, they can hear fairly well. They can smell kind of well, uh, but one of the senses that they fully invest in is vision. They are not gonna be able to smell their predators from very far off. They can hear their predators decently well from far off, but if you're in the complete dark, it's very easy to get snuck up on.

Ellen: Right. Such as, for example, another nocturnal predator, the owl. I guess I had assumed that they were named the owl monkey perhaps because they resemble an owl. Like maybe they look like an owl, but I'm hearing a lot of similarities with owls as well. Like they, you know navigate using sight at night.

Alexi: Yeah. Yeah. With owls though, owls have pretty good hearing. What's kind of wild, I don't know if you've ever seen an owl's skull, but their ears. You can actually see where their ears are on their skull and their ears are offset. So one ear is typically higher than the other one. And that actually lets 'em triangulate sounds. Some owls, I think like the great gray owl, if I'm thinking of the right one, the feathers on its face, which are very broad, very circular, very round, uh, it funnels the sound into their ears, uh, which is pretty incredible.

Ellen: They got like a dish, like a satellite.

Alexi: They, they lit-- like they literally do. I, 10 outta 10. If you're listening to this part, please look up what a great gray owl looks like. If you've never seen one, their whole head looks like a satellite dish.

Ellen: It sure does. They even have like the banded, like marking going around, like concentric rings that like go towards the, it looks like if you were going to like design a character that was like, based on sound waves, you would design it like this, like giving it like a satellite dish face with sound waves going towards its eyes.

Alexi: Mm-hmm . Yeah. Yeah. And so for the great gray owl, it's looking for prey that is actually under the snow. Uh, so it's gonna be using a lot of that hearing to capture that prey. Um, whereas owl monkeys, the nice thing about them is they're not really looking for prey that moves. Uh, they're looking for fruits, uh, leaves. They're typically herbivores. So their food only sways in the wind. So as owl monkeys travel, they're gonna be looking and they're gonna be foraging as they move. They also, when they're eating, they communicate as they're moving, they communicate as well. Uh, as they travel, they tend to chirp, uh, and they'll not necessarily whistle, but they'll produce small whistle, like sounds. It's a very sweet sound.

Ellen: Aw, that sounds really cute.

Alexi: They're very adorable. They straddle the line between adorable and strange looking and somewhat alien because of the size of those eyes. Uh, and depending on the individual, you know, some individuals are a lot prettier than others.

Ellen: There is also a feeling that I feel like I, as a human being get, when I look at a non-human primate, which is like, at first you're like, oh, cute monkey. And then if you look at, if you like, really look in like their eyes, you start to get this feeling. Yeah. That's like that uncanny valley, like uneasiness. That's like you're a little too close to home for me.

Alexi: Yeah. That's how I feel when the owl monkeys I work with in particular, occasionally when they get surprised their response is to stand all the way up. It makes 'em look a little bit bigger. Uh, I don't like that so much.

Ellen: Can y'all not? I need you get back down on all fours for me, please.

Alexi: Yeah, please, please return to the monkey squat that you do. Uh, they, they actually have surprisingly long legs that give them the ability to leap pretty far, you know, think about a frog, uh, those long legs generate a lot of force and can throw their body a good distance. Uh, I've seen the owl monkeys that I work with in particular can jump as much as three times their body length. Uh, which is pretty incredible. That's like me jumping almost 18 feet. that would be pretty spectacular.

Ellen: Get them on a basketball team.

Alexi: Exactly. Or, you know, uh, track would be awesome as long as they didn't have to run up. Uh, their runs are not very elegant, uh, their feet, if you've never seen what, uh, what monkey's feet typically look like, you know, that primary digit, that toe that we call the big toe it's actually rotated to the side. So their feet are built like hands as well. And they have very long elegant toes and fingers that are good for gripping.

Ellen: It's a toe thumb.

Alexi: No, literally it is a, it is definitely a toe thumb. Absolutely. Uh, monkeys typically want to move on top of branches when they're in trees, as opposed to apes who do a behavior called brachiating, uh, and that means that they're swinging under the branch.

Ellen: Oh, I didn't know there was a word for that. That's cool.

Alexi: Yeah. Yeah. Right. Brachiation lets an ape move quickly, use their momentum as they're moving, but also they can move on branches that might be a little bit smaller that wouldn't support the full, you know, their full body. Uh, so an ape like an orangutan can both walk on large branches on the top and then on the thinner ones that are more handheld size, they can swing from them. Uh, whereas a monkey typically doesn't do that. Although spider monkeys and a few other ones definitely do some brachiation, owl monkeys almost exclusively are gonna be walking on the top of branches unless they're gonna dangle their bodies down to reach something. Or if they're playing, I do see them do a play behavior where they dangle upside down from them kind of like a bat.

Ellen: That's so cute.

Alexi: Yeah. It's pretty spectacular.

Ellen: So if this is your first time ever listening to this show, our, our thing that we do here is that we review animals by rating them out of 10 in the categories of effectiveness, ingenuity and aesthetics. So first up is effectiveness. This is like things that the animal has adapted about their body or like built into their body that let them conquer challenges that they face. Or like do the things they're trying to do. So like get their food, not become food, things like that. Um, Alexi, what do you give the owl monkey out of 10 for effectiveness?

Alexi: Okay. I would have to give an owl monkey in terms of its broad adaptations. It would get a standard seven or eight, maybe a 7.5.

Ellen: Okay.

Alexi: If. If they weren't the only ones that figured out how to be nocturnal of all the monkeys. So I have to give 'em an extra point boost. So they get probably an 8.5 because they did something that not a lot of monkeys could do. Uh, they did the same monkey behavior, but they do it during dark conditions.

Ellen: Yeah. It's an originality bonus.

Alexi: Right, right. You know, they're playing life on expert mode. It's pretty impressive. Uh, especially to be able to find fruit in the dark like good job guys, their fur is really nice and fluffy, so they can actually stand, especially the, like the Azara's owl monkeys, those ones are in Argentina where it can be a bit colder as well. Uh, so they can handle some decently cold weather that gets them an extra bump as well. Uh, that's how they got to that, you know, that seven, five. Yeah. Let's see. In terms of their ability to move on branches, I gotta, I gotta give it up for 'em. They're they're pretty nimble on those branches.

Ellen: Spectacular dexterity.

Alexi: The, yeah, incredibly dextrous. Though, when it comes to their, their manual dexterity, their ability to use their fingers, not so good.

Ellen: Really?

Alexi: Yeah. They--

Ellen: that's kind of the monkey's whole thing, right?

Alexi: I know. Yeah.

Ellen: It's like what monkeys do.

Alexi: Yep. Yep. Their fingers are long, but they're not super nimble fingers. I'm giving them a five on, on that manual dexterity. Sorry, guys. Hate to do that to you.

Ellen: Aw, man.

Alexi: I know right?

Ellen: Can't get 'em all.

Alexi: Yeah. You know, uh, their teeth aren't very sharp. Not, not a good bite. They can't really physically defend themselves very well. So in terms of defense adaptations, they, they really do need to stick to, uh, camouflage, which works really, really well.

Ellen: I was gonna ask, like, what kind of predators do they need to look out for?

Alexi: Yeah. Yeah. So if they end up having to go to the ground, we're talking about anything. I mean, even if they're in the trees and ocelot is gonna be a danger to 'em, uh, if they go down lower in the canopy or on the ground animals, like jaguarundis are gonna be dangerous, which is a brown, medium size cat found in south America.

Alexi: And then, you know, I'm sure a Jaguar would snag them, if given the opportunity. Plenty of birds would take the opportunity to hunt them. If they were spotted during the daylight hours, a harpy eagle is gonna make a snack out of them. Owls of various kinds are gonna hunt owl monkeys, brutal namesake, but you know, it is what it is. Larger arboreal boas and snakes. Would eat them, especially when they're younger. A young owl monkey, like an infant would be a snack for like, you know, rainbow boa of a larger size or a boa constrictor of any kind in the, in the trees. Though an adult owl monkey is a little bit, it's a little bit big, uh, for some of these boas.

Ellen: I'm sure that fluff is helping them out a little bit there making them look a little bigger.

Alexi: Yeah. If they were to fall in a, in a lagoon or any water, uh, a crocodilian of a kind would definitely snack on them being a small monkey, basically anything that eats meat is gonna, is gonna look for you.

Ellen: That's true. It's rough out there.

Alexi: Yeah, it really is. It's scary out there for a monkey.

Ellen: Does them being nocturnal seem to help at all with that? Like, I guess what I'm wondering is what is the advantage to being nocturnal, right? Like if they're the only ones of the monkeys that have figured out living at night, like, why wouldn't everybody do that? like, what's the benefit there?

Alexi: I mean, considering that they're an animal that leaps from a branch to a branch, doing it in the dark is it's pretty risky behavior.

Ellen: Right? Like that seems like you've cranked up the difficulty on yourself.

Alexi: Yeah. Yeah. I can imagine things that make a monkey's life, a monkey's life, like looking for bright colored fruits, uh, you know, all those become quite a bit more challenging in the dark. So I can imagine that the cost of benefit ratio for other monkey species, it just might not be there, or it might be just luck. Or, you know, it's possible. I mean, they adapted a very long time ago. I don't remember the years, but it was quite a long time ago. And so there may have been other nocturnal monkeys of a kind that developed that, and then it just didn't work for 'em. Uh, so they may have pivoted back if you will, or they may have just died off. So it, it is possible that it was something that a lot more monkeys did in the past. And it just, at one point stopped paying off, uh, or things might have changed.

Ellen: Mm, sure. It seems like such a strange holdout that they're like, mm, yes. Me, a creature who has adapted to thrive on vision, I think I'm actually gonna do this in a time when visibility is extremely low.

Alexi: Yeah. Well, and during the day they're really hard to spot in general. Even the ones that I work with it, it'll take me a few minutes to identify 'em in a space that's not all that big compared to a forest. They're incredibly cryptic. So they do have the benefit of that, where a lot of these sight based predators that operate during the daytime might not be able to find them very well. Uh, to be honest, there isn't a lot of data on them because they, uh, they move so high up, they move typically in the dark and because they are so well camouflaged, the primary research that I see on owl monkeys currently is being conducted in Argentina in a, I believe it's like it's a research park, essentially. Uh, so it's, uh, it's a defined area where they can study the WL monkey behavior. And a lot of research is coming out of them. I wish I could remember the institute's name at the moment.

Ellen: Hi, it's me editing this episode. The research park is called the Marikina Reserve. It is a field site that is operated by The Owl Monkey Project, which is a multidisciplinary research site in Argentina, studying owl monkey behavior. You can learn more about their work and this research site at owlmonkeyproject.com.

Alexi: Aside from that, it is most of what we know about owl monkeys comes from their behavior in captivity, which is altered from their behavior in the wild. So as time goes on and hopefully as research may increase, hopefully we'll learn more.

Ellen: I pulled up a Google image page of pictures, of owl monkeys, um, for me to peruse so that I have a good visual of what you're talking about when we're talking about these cool monkeys, cuz like I said, I'm not very familiar with them, but I do definitely see what you mean by how like their fur it's fluffy, but it's also that same sort of grayish brown color of like the bark of the trees. So it makes a lot of sense that they would be naturally very difficult, not just to find if you're a predator but if you're a scientist they're difficult to observe. So yeah. It's gonna be really hard to see what they're up to if they're so well camouflaged.

Alexi: And it's hard to catch 'em too, if you wanted to like, you know, put markers on 'em because how are you gonna catch it in the trees or, you know, even if you like wanted to dart it, say, it's like, how are you gonna catch it? Like when it falls. So it, there are so many logistical challenges to, uh, to studying them and a really cool thing that maybe you can see this on your, uh, image search, but when owl monkeys are sleeping, they actually curl fully up into a ball.

Ellen: Oh my goodness.

Alexi: Uh, so the only thing you see is the back of their neck essentially rolled forward. Uh, so they actually have their head almost between their legs tucked up as they sit on a branch. Um, they, they just look like a literal bump on a log.

Ellen: Yeah. Cuz when they curl up, they're really hiding like their markings and that sort of like brighter underbelly that they have. So all you're getting is just like that grayish, brownish, it looks like it's just part of the tree.

Alexi: It really does.

Ellen: Is this something that frustrates you working with them?

Alexi: Uh, no, fortunately they like most other primates human and non-human, uh, have habits. So if, uh, I know where they tend to hang out so I can look in those spaces and I can expect to see a monkey. I just have to look long enough and then my eyes will register 'em.

Ellen: Oh, sure.

Alexi: So for those who don't know, I work in, uh, actually a nocturnal setting, so everything is reversed for an owl monkey, so I can see them being active. I can make notes on their behavior. So with, uh, when I first come in in the morning, though, it's on a daylight setting. Uh, so when I look to see if everyone's good and well, that's when it's hardest to find. I work around sloths as well and they are, uh, the one that I work with in particular, she is very hard to find when she's just sitting right in front of my eyes.

Ellen: Well, she's also not helping you by moving around.

Alexi: No, no. Um, something that's really cool, on the topic of their coloration though, is that, uh, recently I think in the last four months, maybe five months, it was actually noted. An owl monkey who had albinism.

Ellen: Wow!

Alexi: Yeah. So, uh, a researcher, I don't think they were focused particularly on owl monkeys, but they were in South America researching something. And a lot of people in the area were, were telling them about a white monkey that they had seen. And a lot of times researchers, uh, especially Western researchers who aren't from an area when they hear indigenous people talking about a thing in their area, a lot of times they get written off. And those researchers, when they do that, they are, they're essentially missing an opportunity at learning something new.

Ellen: Right.

Alexi: And so this researcher in particular, he, like a lot of successful researchers in indigenous areas who help indigenous people, he listened to them. That's really important. He listened to them, uh, and they showed him where this was and he got pictures of it. That being said, you know, it's really important that getting those pictures and then, you know, getting that data. It's really important to remember that we have to protect those animals, not just in words, but when we get pictures of animals in South America that may have unique fur colorations, or maybe an endangered reptile, it's really important to remove the geotagging data. Because people can use that to find that animal, uh, and then capture it.

Ellen: Oh, like the metadata from the file.

Alexi: Exactly. It's really, really important, especially for herp researchers. Uh, I can't stress this enough. If you see a unique or an endangered reptile or amphibian, and you get pictures and collect data on it, you have to remove the location data. Uh, and that will protect that animal so that it doesn't get, you know, captured, you know, a year or two down the line.

Ellen: Right. I think it might be a lot of, people's like initial reaction to think like, oh my gosh, I found this amazing picture of this beautiful animal. I have to share it. And like, let everybody know like where I found it. So like, like you have this inclination to want to share that information, but like you said, you know, it's important to think about, is sharing this information gonna put this animal at risk?

Alexi: Exactly.

Ellen: I think a couple months ago we talked about, you know, the ethics of primate photography.

Alexi: Oh yeah. That's, that's a big one.

Ellen: Yes, we, we talked about the slow loris. So we were talking about like being mindful of the kind of content that you're sharing online when it comes to like taking pictures of primates and like what's the context of the picture, is that made clear in the picture? You know, like the ethics of wildlife photography can get way stickier than I think people realize at first.

Alexi: Yeah. Yeah. You know, and you know, to be fair, it's hard to predict what another person is going to think of something. But that being said at this point, we now have, you know, uh, years of understanding of, okay, what is, what is typically a misconception that is being taken from this type of picture? But it's really important for us to at least begin asking ourselves those questions, uh, and really looking at it with a critical eye because you know, the attention that your picture may get may be bad attention as a whole.

Ellen: Right because, you know, you're essentially blasting the GPS coordinates of this animal that might be of a high dollar

Alexi: value. Yeah. And a question that I have, you know, we know that albinism has an effect, uh, on hearing and vision, at least in a lot of species of mammals. Uh, and so my question is, I wonder how, uh, the albinism affects the, the owl monkey's vision and affects its hearing. The one thing that they noticed that the owl monkey in particular was squinting a little bit more than the other ones around it. Now that may just be circumstantial. It may just mean that, uh, you know, that one might have just been waking up and so its eyes might not have adjusted to the light, or it may have been, uh, having, you know, more light sensitivity than the other ones. Uh, so those are, it opens a lot of questions that hopefully will have answers to.

Ellen: What I've always heard, cuz I've always heard. I think , I don't know if this is true, that albinism increases light sensitivity that an animal or a person who has albinism would be more sensitive to light and therefore be like more receptive to light in their eyes. and then that would make me think that if a, if a nocturnal primate who is relying heavily on vision had increased light sensitivity, like that might actually help them.

Alexi: Right. Right. Is it, yeah. Is this something that is accidentally a positive in unexpected ways? Uh, or does it affect how that light sensitivity occurs? You know, cuz it could be really complex in, in how, how is its vision altered? You know, does it have the same like number of like rods versus cones what's changing in the structure is their vision more sensitive to light, but slightly warped in a way, because a structure is slightly changed. So for people who don't know albinism is, you know, the lack of pigment, uh, melanin typically in your body. So it's what leads to white animals that have red eyes, you know, so think about the, the rabbits that you may see at a pet store that have been bred to be white, uh, with those red eyes, uh, that is caused by albinism. Leucism is very similar, but Leucism is where they have only some pigments.

Alexi: So if you see an animal that is white with blue eyes, sometimes that will be, uh, a leucistic animal. So the genes that cause us to have that melanin and the pigmentation in our skin, eyes, hair, uh, and sometimes even nails, that is a very, very complex gene. It affects a lot of things in our body. It's a gene that connects to a lot of traits. So when that gene has that, like, you know, very recessive output where you don't have any pigmentation in your skin or eyes, uh, hair, et cetera, that also is gonna affect how the other structures in your body that rely on that gene are built. Uh, so I work with a, uh, a white alpaca and she has no hearing because that is a trait that is associated with her leucism. It's really complicated stuff. Uh, so yeah, the question is like, how does albinism, how does being albino affect, uh, an owl monkey. Or how does it affect this one? Because we, you know, one isn't a sample, but it's a little bit.

Ellen: N of one.

Alexi: Yep, yep. Yep.

Ellen: Well, I mean, even if albinism does help its eyesight, it also loses camouflage.

Alexi: Mm-hmm, yep.

Ellen: So then like, is it worth it at that point? Like, are you gaining enough of an advantage to make it worth losing your camouflage? Which it's based on what you said, it kind of sounds like that's its only line of defense.

Alexi: Mm-hmm and running, you know, running in escaping and they're pretty good at that.

Ellen: I would hope that this albino one is really good at running.

Alexi: Yeah, me too. You know, I hope it lives a long life. It seemed like it was part of a family group. And so it might have still been a juvenile, but that being said it was adult-ish sized. So it survived through its infancy and its uh, childhood.

Ellen: That's a promising start!

Alexi: Yeah. It's on its way to being an adult and you know, maybe it'll make a, you know, a pair bond itself.

Ellen: I would be delighted to hear more news of the albino owl monkey. I'll be keeping an eye out for, for updates on their story.

Alexi: Yeah.

Ellen: You mentioned earlier that, you know, the, the owl monkeys that you work with, you know, you work with them in a captive setting that is in with like a low light setting, but that their behavior in captivity is different from what you would see the behavior of a wild animal exhibiting.

Ellen: So you mentioned that what is known about their behavior is based on a captive setting, but just based on like what you know, and what you've heard and what you've experienced with these owl monkeys, let's talk ingenuity, which is our next category that we rate animals on. And for us, ingenuity is just like how well their behavior, like things that they're actually actively doing with their body, like helps them solve problems that they face or, you know, thrive in their environment. What would you give your owl monkey friends out of 10 for ingenuity?

Alexi: Okay. So for ingenuity I gotta, I gotta rate 'em low. Okay. I gotta rate em low , although keep in mind that owl monkeys, like most animals, their, their competency and their skills are on an individual level. You know, some of, some of us humans, we are incredibly intelligent.

Alexi: Uh, at large, but you know, some of us have very different intelligences. Uh, so, uh, this is me hedging my answer already before I get roasted online for flaming these owl monkeys, uh, they, they're not the smartest primate that you'll ever meet. I'm gonna, man. I'm sorry guys. I gotta hit 'em with like a four or a five.

Ellen: Okay.

Alexi: On the ingenuity. Like they--

Ellen: I'm sorry, babies.

Alexi: Sometimes they feel like deer. As they move through the trees. Um, no, no, they're, they're intelligent. Um, but if we're comparing it to a lot of these like very smart primates, uh, you know, I have to give 'em a, a lower score. They quickly, when they can't figure out a problem, they quickly move to, I'm gonna break it immediately. They're like, I'm gonna shake it. I'm gonna break it. And that's, that is the problem solving ability that I have seen so far though. Some individuals are, uh, definitely, you know, of the three that I currently work with, there is a marked difference in each of their competencies. You know, one of 'em, she is, uh, "I'm gonna shake it I'm gonna break it" kind of animal.

Ellen: Same. Love it. Good for her.

Alexi: Yeah. Right. The other one he's very gentle. Uh, but he also gives up.

Ellen: Oh, no!

Alexi: So yeah, he, he looks, he moves, he kind of shakes it, he tilts it, you know, he does the thing. And then he says, okay, well that's not anything real.

Ellen: This wasn't meant to be.

Alexi: Yeah. Yeah. He's not stressed about what he can't control in his world. He looks at his world around him and he is like, I don't have power here. So I'm gonna move on to things that I do know. And I respect that. That's a good way to maintain your peace.

Ellen: How much can we learn from this baby?

Alexi: Exactly. And then, uh, and then the third one who is their infant, it has learned that if the adults figure out the problem, he can eat out of their mouths.

Ellen: Mm!

Alexi: So I respect that. I have heavy respect for that, but yeah. Yeah. So, and you know, when we compare him to other primates, uh, we gotta score 'em pretty, pretty low on their ingenuity.

Ellen: I've heard about owls and perhaps this is also the case with owl monkeys.

Alexi: Yeah. It might be.

Ellen: I've heard with owls that they also have these big, enormous eyes for seeing well in low light and that they had to make room for these big giant eyes by, uh, reallocating some of the cranial real estate that would've otherwise been dedicated to brain. And so they just kind of traded brain for eyes. And so you get these giant eyes with quite little behind them.

Alexi: Yeah. Yeah. So their brain mass to body mass ratio, isn't, isn't the highest, it's not very big. Uh, they do have to make a lot of, a lot of room in their head or in their skull for their eyes and the optic anatomy, uh, that comes along with it. You know, but their, you know, their focus is on moving, finding, and also they, they do form these very, not very large, but very complex social bonds between two individuals. A lot of their, you know, their learning does go towards that and then understanding their environment. So they, they do learn what they need to know. So if I could say that, so they, they get the job done.

Ellen: Sure.

Alexi: You know, they, you know, being the smartest animal out in the forest, isn't always a winner. You know, if I, if you plop me down in, in the rainforest, I'm not gonna do very great. I could count the change in pocket real fast, but that's not gonna help me survive. Uh, in the words of another, but, uh.

Ellen: Priorities.

Alexi: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I'm gonna bump them up to a five because they get, they get the job done, but they're just, they're not killing it in terms of problem solving.

Ellen: That's fair. I mean, who, who among us, who is?

Alexi: You know, especially now these days, who. Who is truly getting a ten. And if you are, tell me your secret.

Ellen: Who's firing on all cylinders these days. None of us. So I told you that I looked up pictures. And so I'm looking at like the Google images, results page. And I'm seeing a lot of these headlines on here that are referring to owl monkeys as very good dads. This one says best dads on the planet. Um, this one says that they are the best father in the animal kingdom. What's going on with owl monkey dads?

Alexi: Yeah. Owl monkey dads are great. Uh, if you ever are blessed to see an owl monkey dad doing his dad thing, it is delightful. It is something we all can learn from. Uh, so. Owl monkey dads. Uh, so basically mom, you know, shoots out a baby and then dad oftentimes will go get it off the ground. Uh, or one of 'em will go pick it up off the ground. Uh, if it makes it all the way down.

Ellen: Oh, you meant like she SHOOTS the baby. She is like spiking it down on the ground.

Alexi: She will have have the baby and the baby is very large. Uh, they only have one offspring, uh, and it's a very large, very developed baby, but dad oftentimes will get them off of the ground, uh, pick them up because they are arboreal. Uh, so the baby doesn't immediately grab on sometimes or if it's held by the umbilical cord, dad can catch it.

Ellen: That's very similar to how humans do it. Like like how a lot of times the other partner of the person giving birth will be like, they're waiting to like catch the baby, right?

Alexi: Yeah. Especially if you go up onto the balcony to have it. Yeah. So these, these owl monkey dads will do a lot of the rearing. Uh, they'll do a lot of the raising, uh, and mom's main job at, for the majority of the infancy and childhood if you wanna call it that, her job is to simply take care of herself and produce milk. That is it. Like she she's there to provide the food. And dad, dad literally will carry that baby on his back and will teach that baby everything he knows. Uh, that's packed into that little tiny monkey brain. Uh and, and so you see a lot of play behavior between the dad and the owl monkey infant. You'll see, usually the way you can spot the owl monkey infant after like a couple of days is usually, uh, on dad's back, riding him like a, like a horse.

Ellen: Oh, my goodness. That's the most precious thing I've ever heard.

Alexi: It's it's adorable. It's adorable. You can only really tell the baby from the dad by looking for a baby shaped imprint, it looks like like Daffy duck getting blown through a wall. You know, it's just the shape of the baby on the dad. It's incredible.

Ellen: I mean like what a great arrangement also, because like I have given birth to two kids and you need as much help as you can get in that honestly, in that time right after having a baby. So, I mean good for them for having figured that out.

Alexi: Honestly, gentlemen, carry the baby. Carry that baby. Please walk around with that baby. Teach that baby. Love your baby.

Ellen: Put that baby on your back. Get you one of those baby backpacks.

Alexi: Oh my gosh.

Ellen: Even just like the, the cloth that you could just like wrap around. Yeah. And carry the baby on your back. Like it's comfortable. You get that weight off of your hips. It's fun.

Alexi: Yeah, it's wild. The dad was carrying the one that I worked with is, or he was carrying the baby around for as long as a year. And then eventually he started like fighting the baby. He's like, you will get off of me now. You are almost my size. Yeah. Cuz the baby will do that until it's almost half the size of, of the adult. Uh, which is incredible. When you really think about that, they're still having to run. They're still having to jump. Uh, but it really, when it comes to this pair bond that they have, they're, you know, more equitably sharing the resource load because when you get down to it, a lot of things, uh, in the wild boil down to, you know, resources, you know, of one kind or another. And it's often even further boiled down to energy, expenditure, energy going in and energy coming out. If more energy is coming out than is going in, that animal is not gonna survive for very long. So dad shares the load of energy that has to go into this baby that the baby is using to grow, uh, and hopefully survive later on. So mom can focus her energy on surviving herself, first of all, and then also on getting enough food that she needs in order to produce milk, which is incredibly energy expensive. Uh, I, you know, a lot of people may not realize that, but it, it takes a lot for our bodies to produce that. Especially if you are trying to run it and hide from predators and you have to walk around and forage for your food, you have to find these small supermarkets through spread throughout the whole neighborhood just to eat a meal. Uh, so, you know, that makes it so that they have a better chance of surviving, both the adults and the offspring.

Ellen: I guess it makes sense that they have such a small litter size of like only having the one baby at a time. If they're putting so much effort into, like both parents putting so much effort into this one little baby.

Alexi: Yeah, that's right. And they will raise that baby. And that baby will stay with them for roughly around three years. So they'll have one that one will grow up and become semi independent, but it'll stay with the family where it will start to learn also how to rear and how to raise offspring by, you know, observing its parents' behavior as the next one is born. Uh, so with some of 'em, there may be like this little like conveyor belt, you know, where it's like, you know, the one that was just raised, you know, learns how to, and then helps raise the next one coming up too.

Ellen: Oh, multi-generational families.

Alexi: Yeah. Yeah. And then of course they have to move on and go find a partner of their own or just live about.

Ellen: It's the circle of life.

Alexi: Yeah. It's actually a pretty cool little structure. I love it.

Ellen: Everything you've told me about these creatures so far has been relentlessly delightful.

Alexi: Mm-hmm yeah. Yeah. I'm gonna drop one more on you because their fur is actually very soft to the touch. It's like, it's not like a chinchilla, but it's kind of close. It's close enough. It's it's dense. It's soft. The strands are very thin, but to be honest, I rock climb. So my hands aren't the most sensitive. So maybe someone who has like, actually sensitive fingers might be, might be like, this is not anything.

Ellen: Well, I mean, like compared to what a lot of other like wild mammals that you see, they typically, I feel like usually like a wild mammal you could expect to have pretty like coarse, not the most like sensory appealing material, but I love a good soft critter. Well, since we're talking about, uh, how delightfully soft their fur is and how adorable they are and talking about their babies, let's talk aesthetics for the owl monkey. This is a very self-explanatory category, but what do you give the owl monkey out of 10 for aesthetics?

Alexi: So I'm gonna give them two different scores. Okay. I'm gonna score them on minimalism.

Ellen: Okay.

Alexi: And then I'm gonna score them on kind of like a, a more maximal scale.

Ellen: Sure.

Alexi: So in terms of like minimalism, I think they do a lot with very little, they have only what, three or four, four different colors on their body. It's usually like a gray, a black they'll have like, sort of like a rusty brown, almost like an amber color. And that's usually seen on the inside of their arms, whereas like the grays and blacks are on their back. And then on their face, they have, uh, these like white markings above their big brown eyes and then between their eyes and then on the outside. So on the temple, they have three black lines that go up and back across their head. So I think they're doing a lot with very little. So in terms of minimalism, I think I'm gonna give 'em a solid seven or eight.

Ellen: That's good.

Alexi: Maybe even a nine, depending on the individual. Cuz some individuals are gorgeous looking. They're just so fluffy. So nice looking. And then in terms of like, you know, maximal, like kind of peacocking, you know, comparing to all of those really, really wild ones, I'm gonna give them like a five.

Ellen: Maybe a low pizzazz sort of creature.

Alexi: Exactly, exactly. Their colors camouflage them. They do the job, but they're not, you don't look at 'em and say like, oh my gosh, like, what is that? Who's that girl, you know, you don't, you don't think that would see them.

Ellen: Who is she?

Alexi: Right. You're more like, oh my God, it's looking at me.

Ellen: They're not the ones making the grand entrance to the ball.

Alexi: Exactly. No, it's one of those things where the more you look at them, the more you appreciate them. Yeah. So they have that slow burning beauty. That's what that is.

Ellen: It's subtle.

Alexi: Exactly. Exactly.

Ellen: They are incredibly cute. And like, like you mentioned, the, the white markings above and below the eyes, it reminds me of this thing that I've seen mostly I've seen cause players do this when they use white makeup above and below their eyes to make their eyes look like a cartoon.

Alexi: Mm-hmm yeah.

Ellen: That's what it reminds me of because it makes their eyes look like really big and tall.

Alexi: That's wild. Cuz that you finally like nailed it. That like I was like, what does that remind me of? And it reminds me of cosplay makeup a little bit. Yeah.

Ellen: Like when you're trying to make your eyes look like a cartoon character like I've seen people do this for like Jessica Rabbit cosplay and stuff where they'll like, make your eyes really big.

Alexi: Oh, that's bonkers. Yeah. That, that is it. That's the vibe. That's the vibe, we did it.

Ellen: It works well, it looks really cute. It also makes them look like they have like eyebrows which is like, they kind of don't, but they kind of do, like, it makes 'em look like they have eyebrows, which makes them to a human look, more expressive.

Alexi: Yeah. And I wonder if you know, I'm not exactly sure what the, uh, what the utility of those markings are, you know, I wonder if it's the contrast for them to identify each other. Oh, uh, in the dark with especially identifying individuals, uh, because they're all slightly different looking in their face, especially the more familiar with their faces you get, uh, the more you can recognize that they have individual faces. Uh, if you think about it, like if you have ever been friends with a pair of twins, you know, at first you're like, I can't tell them apart, but then over the years, you're like, I could never mix them up. Yeah. As you become more familiar with what their individual face structures look like, it becomes pretty difficult to mix up different owl monkeys. So I wonder if there, if that is part of the utility of having those not necessarily complex facial markings, but very contrasted facial markings,

Ellen: I guess that would make sense for a social, like a creature that really puts a lot into their like social interactions. It would be important for them to be able to tell each other apart.

Alexi: Right. Right.

Ellen: Or at least like having a high contrast so that it's easy for them to identify where each other's faces are. Like in the dark, I guess. Yeah. That would make sense. It also reminds me of the markings on the face of the, uh, the slow loris um, yeah, to bring them up again.

Alexi: Mm-hmm, slow lorises are amazing primates. They're wild.

Ellen: Spectacular creatures. And they have those, you know, those bright white markings on their face. I read somewhere that in the slow loris, it was to mimic a spectacled cobra.

Alexi: Yeah. Yep. I was wondering if you guys had already talked about that. Uh, and the fact, I think if I'm remembering the right primate, I think they also hiss as a part of their defensive posture, they also weave back and forth.

Ellen: Yes! They put their hands up and hiss to look like the hood of a cobra.

Alexi: Yeah. And if you see a picture of it, it does look like one, especially if you look at it in kind of like a low contrast or low light, imagine what that looks like in the dark. It's like, oh, that actually does kind of look like a Cobra. Uh, and then on top of that, they're a venomous primate. Like as far as I know, they're the only ones that are venomous.

Ellen: I think so. Yeah. I'm pretty sure. But they fully copied the Cobra, like copy and paste.

Alexi: Right. I, you know, I don't support plagiarism, but I respect it. I get it.

Ellen: Well, listen, that's like very much a human value, you know? Right. Like what if, uh, plagiarism is totally fine.

Alexi: Listen, colleges. Nature doesn't uh, have a no, you know, a full hand -- I can't get that joke out. I couldn't find my way there.

Ellen: I, I don't want any, uh, colleges reaching out to me and being like, um, please don't advocate for plagiarism on your podcast. Please don't do that. The last thing I wanted to say about like the aesthetics for the owl monkey, because I've literally been staring and scrolling through this, these Google photos, like this whole time we've been talking, is that I do wanna give props to the eyes.

Alexi: Yes.

Ellen: Because I understand that the eyes are like an adaptation to help them survive. But I gotta say it's also super cute.

Alexi: Yeah, they're gorgeous. They have very pretty eyes, especially when you see them open in low light, you know, when their pupils are like maxed out and max size. Oh, it's, it's adorable. They look like the picture of the, of Puss In Boots from, uh, from Shrek.

Ellen: It does! Yes! I was trying to place what --

Alexi: It's so cute. I'm like, ah, dang. You know? Okay. So yeah, I'll bump them up a point on both accounts.

Ellen: That feels appropriate.

Alexi: Yeah.

Ellen: I dropped a link in the little squad cast chat to the exact photo I was looking at. When you said that they look like Puss In Boots with the begging eyes.

Alexi: Yep. Yes. Uh, they're they also have pretty spectacular little cheekbones. This one is, is a very good picture. Uh, this, this picture that we're looking at, it is an owl monkey. I assume it's a dad cuz the baby is on its back looking over his shoulder.

Alexi: But this owl monkey has a very thick neck, but it has very, very prominent cheekbones. And it has like a small chin and like big pouches on its upper lip. A very adorable owl monkey. Just, that one's a winner.

Ellen: It looks halfway between a monkey and a cat.

Alexi: Yeah. So a really cool thing. If we wanna talk about eyes real quick, in terms of cats, you know, a lot of people identify cats with the cat eye, uh, that slit pupil, both of them typically nocturnal animals, uh, you know, cats are more crepuscular, but you know, they move around in low light conditions, especially a lot of smaller cats. Uh, the reason why an owl monkey is gonna have a large circular pupil rather than a slit pupil is because they typically aren't on a surface. So what I mean by that is like, they're on a branch, but they're not on these, they're not on the ground. They're not low to the ground, or they're not on the trunk of a tree, a very long, very large surface area. So a slit pupil helps an animal that is low to the ground, moving in low light conditions. Uh, it helps them see really, really well. I don't exactly know how it works. I'm still like wrapping my brain around it, but that's why you'll see some like nocturnal snakes with slit pupils.

Alexi: That's why, uh, domestic cats and small cats typically have slit pupils. And that's why larger animals that are nocturnal don't have slit pupils like tigers and lions. They will be incredibly active at night, but they don't benefit from having a slit pupil because of how tall they are. Oh, and how high off the ground they are.

Ellen: But they're mimicking being tall just by being up high in the trees.

Alexi: Yeah, exactly, exactly. Being high off of the ground. Uh, they benefit from having a circular pupil. It's, uh, it's the way that they can maximize their vision and that slit pupil just doesn't really do a lot for 'em probably.

Ellen: Oh, that makes a lot of sense though. Yeah. When you get into like the science of vision, it becomes magic at a certain point.

Alexi: It really does. It. It really does. I, you know, I firmly stand behind like science is really just the method for understanding magic in the universe.

Ellen: The rules of magic.

Alexi: Yeah. It, it really is. It really is just the rules of magic and how it works. Like that's part of physics and why the physics field even exists. It's like here is how we learn magic and how it works.

Ellen: This is how magic works.

Alexi: Uhhuh . Yeah. Yeah.

Ellen: These are just the rules that our magic adheres to.

Alexi: Mm-hmm . Exactly, exactly.

Ellen: And no better manifestation of the magic of the universe than the spritely little fairy that is the owl monkey. What a sweetie. I'm obsessed. Okay. I. I'm in love. I'm thoroughly thrilled by everything you've told me about owl monkeys here today, before we get wrapped up I really wanna talk about your podcast.

Alexi: Oh yeah.

Ellen: I have listened to every episode. And it is just so delightful and funny and insightful.

Ellen: And also, I don't know if you do the sound designing, but the sound designing is fantastic.

Alexi: Thank you. Yeah, I do. I do the sound design on there. Yeah.

Ellen: Oh A plus. I love it. I'm always thrilled. So let our friends listening know more about your podcast.

Alexi: Yeah. So my podcast that I work on with co-host Allison Jones is the We Out Here podcast. Uh, it's a storytelling podcast that centers around, you know, fun experiences or et cetera, uh, of black, brown, and indigenous folks in science and nature. So a person comes on with Allison and I, uh, they tell a story about being in nature or being in one of the sciences. And yeah, we just have a good time with it.

Alexi: You know, I love storytelling. I think it's one of the ways that we process our world and learn about our world. Uh, it's a way we share a lot of information, especially historically through oral traditions. Uh, and so this is a way that we can kind of maintain that. It's also in its goal and in earnest, you know, a lot of black and brown faces and indigenous faces, aren't the faces of science or the faces of nature in terms of like naturalists. You know, we think of, uh, Jeff Corwin, the Kratt brothers, uh, Steve Irwin, and all of them respect to them and all they've done, but, you know, we want to normalize our presence out there as well. So. You know, just sharing these stories is, you know, it's a little step forward for that. Plus it's a, you know, it's a fun format. Uh, plus we can have funny sound gags on there. Uh, and it, it really made me fall in love with audio editing as much as I, uh, get frustrated with the process.

Ellen: I can relate to that.

Alexi: Yeah. Yeah. So that's the we out here podcast it's on every major platform, uh, for podcasts, uh, in episodes, we try to keep 'em short, you know, about 30 to 40 minutes. So they're a nice little like commute podcast for you.

Ellen: I was gonna say it lines up like, almost perfectly with my commute, usually like, yeah, it's the sort of thing where I'm like pulling into the parking lot at work, right as the episode's ending.

Alexi: Yeah. And we, we drop new episodes once a month. So the primary episodes drop on the 15th of every month.

Alexi: And then on the first of the following month, we drop, uh, what we call the "kitty cut" and that's a cut that's edited for, you know, for younger more sensitive ears. Uh, so if you have an audience member or you yourself are a little more sensitive to, you know, the colorful language, uh, we, we cut a bit of that out and we make it a little more kid friendly.

Ellen: I love that. Yeah. I know that there are, you know, a lot of kids listening right now that would probably love to go take a listen and hear some stories about folks, you know, enjoying nature. I just listened to the episode you had with Sylvana about beekeeping. And that, that episode was just delightful.

Alexi: Yeah. That story, when she, when she emailed us with that story me and Allison lost our minds, the, it took, it took a bunch of turns. Um, and for anyone listening, if you are, you know, if you're black, brown, or indigenous and you want to share your story with us, uh, send us an email at: weoutherepod@gmail.com, you know, hit us with that story and we'll give you more details on how to, how to be on the program. But we are always looking for more folks to join us with stories in, you know, keep in mind, we're not looking specifically for traumatic stories or trauma of like harm or anything like that, but just, you know, your experience in life, in and around the trees.

Ellen: And also for folks that maybe want to follow along with you and your work, not just science communication, but just wanna connect with you. Where can folks find you?

Alexi: Yeah, you can find me on Twitter, uh, at @alhendiify, and that is at A L H E N D I I F Y. Wow. I almost couldn't spell that for a moment. No. So that's where you can find me on Twitter, um, for, be forewarned, it's not specifically a kid friendly Twitter account, so this is largely for adults.

Alexi: We discuss a lot of adult topics and that one is not specifically a scientific communication account, though I love to share information about animals. Uh, so if you're interested in discussing environmental justice, uh, social justice, or just in general topics of, uh, any interesting thing I run across. Yeah, come on and join me, check it out.

Ellen: I'll include a link to that in the episode description, by the way. So folks can scroll down and see all the links to where they can follow you and your work. Thank you so much for sharing your joy and your knowledge and your enthusiasm with us here today. It has been an absolute delight.

Ellen: Thank you so much, Alexi. We will talk to you later.

Alexi: Thanks for having me on. I'll see you later, Ellen. All right, bye.

Ellen: Thank you so much for listening friends. I have fallen in love with this bouncy little spirit of the twilight, and I hope you have too. If you liked what you heard today, it would mean a lot to us if you could leave us a good review on your Podcatcher, we've been having a little bit of an influx of five star reviews on Apple Podcasts, and I cannot tell you how thankful I am for that. So thank you so much for everybody who's been leaving us good ratings and kind words. It really means a lot to us. We're on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. We even have a Discord server that we've been having a lot of fun in. So come link up with us on social media. Also, you can send me an email at ellen@justthezooofus.com. If you have a cool animal you'd like to hear about. We'd like to say thank you to Maximum Fun for having us on their network, alongside their other fantastic shows like the ones that you heard promos for here earlier, you can check those out and learn more about the network at maximumfun.org. While you're over there, please consider signing up for a membership to keep us going along with the rest of the shows on the network. And also thank you so much to everybody who has signed up for a membership to support us. We couldn't do it without you. Finally, we would like to thank Louie Zong for our incredible theme music.

Ellen: That is all for today, and we will see you next week! Thanks, bye!