17: Veiled Chameleon & Kea

Christian: Hi everyone, this is Christian Weatherford.

Ellen: And this is Ellen Weatherford.

Christian: And you're listening to Just the Zoo of Us, a podcast about animals where we'll give them a rating out of 10 in three different categories. And those categories are effectiveness, ingenuity, and aesthetics.

Ellen: Christian and I are not zoological experts, but we do our best. We do a lot of research to make sure we're giving you really good information from really trustworthy sources.

Christian: We try our hardest.

Ellen: We do real good. Well, we do our best at least.

Christian: I'd say 99% of the time.

Ellen: Hey, we haven't been called out yet, and we're 17 episodes in.

Christian: Does mispronunciation count?

Ellen: No.

Christian: Okay. 100% it is.

Ellen: Oh, also we have been called out on some Lion King lore that I have a note on that for the end of the show. So stay tuned after we're done with our segments because we're adding a new segment onto the end of the show for audience responses. It's going to be really fun. So stay tuned at the end.

Christian: Woo! Excited.

Ellen: So last week you went first with the blobfish, which means this week it's my turn.

Christian: Alright. What you got for us this week?

Ellen: I have an animal I am so excited to talk about. I've been chomping at the bit all day long because I'm so excited: the veiled chameleon.

Christian: All right.

Ellen: Yes. The scientific name is Chamaeleo calyptratus.

Christian: Interesting.

Ellen: Yeah.

Christian: Lots of hard consonants in there.

Ellen: Yeah, I did my best. The chameleon was requested by Ashley Tucker, so thank you very much, Ashley.

Christian: Yes, thank you Ashley.

Ellen: She just said chameleon, so I kind of picked, cause there's a lot of different chameleons. So I picked the veiled chameleon. And for my information on this animal, I'm getting it from Animal Diversity Web, which is a website we use a lot and it's made by the University of Michigan's Museum of Zoology, also the Toronto Zoo, the San Diego Zoo, and National Geographic. So lots of different informational sources, but there's a lot of info out there about them.

Christian: I am very excited for this one.

Ellen: This is good one. So we'll start with some basic information about the veiled chameleon. A fully grown adult male can reach up to 2 feet long, or 61 centimeters, from the head to the tip of the tail. So that's really not that big.

Christian: Oh, okay. That's true.

Ellen: Um, but still like 2 feet from head to the tip of the tail is decent sized for a lizard. Oh, if you don't know what a chameleon is, it's a green lizard.

Christian: Usually green, right?

Ellen: They're usually green, yes. Their resting state is green. Don't worry, don't worry. We'll get there. We'll get there. Now, females are considerably smaller. They're typically around 14 inches in length, or 35 centimeters. So much, much smaller. They're dainty. Okay?

Christian: Aw, cute.

Ellen: In the wild, you can find veiled chameleons in the southwestern Arabian peninsula. This is in Saudi Arabia and Yemen.

Christian: That's interesting. Not where I would have thought they are.

Ellen: So there are lots of different chameleon species all over the world, there's lots of them in different parts of Africa and Asia, but this one specifically is mostly found in Saudi Arabia and Yemen.

Christian: All right.

Christian: They belong to the taxonomic family Chamaeleonidae, which is the chameleon family. There are over 200 different species of chameleons.

Christian: Wow.

Ellen: Yes. So they're very, many of those, and chameleons of course, are related to like lizards. Other, other lizards, basically. Lizards, iguanas, anoles, they're all part of the same like big lizard family. So I'm just going to jump right into it.

Christian: Please, please do.

Ellen: We're going to get started with effectiveness, which we define as physical adaptations that the animal has that allow it to accomplish its goals, do what it's trying to do. For effectiveness, I'm giving the veiled chameleon a perfect score of 10 out of 10.

Christian: Alright! Kind of saw that one coming.

Ellen: I bet you did. So the chameleon has a lot going for it. I'm just gonna, right off the bat, I'm going to start with their skin because I know that's what you want to hear about.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: Yeah. So I'm going to get that out of the way. So chameleons are famous for their ability to very quickly change the color of their skin. It's something they can do on a dime, right? It doesn't take them a long time. So they do this for a variety of reasons that I'll go into later, but first, let's take a look at how they change their color.

Christian: Alright.

Ellen: Yes. So the chameleon's skin is made of four layers. I'll start with the top.

Christian: Alright.

Ellen: The top layer, called the epidermis, is transparent, so it's totally see through. This is the protective layer that you'll see them shedding. So when you see them kind of get like a pale, dull color, and then their skin peels off and they leave skin behind, that's the epidermis. So they shed it and grow it back throughout their life. Happens all the time, not a big deal. Now, beneath the epidermis is a layer of skin that is made of color producing cells called chromatophores. Yeah. So the top layer of chromatophores produce yellow and red pigments.

Christian: Alright.

Ellen: The layer beneath the yellow and red cells is made of different chromatophores called iridophores. And the irido- part of that comes from iridescent, because these cells contain nanocrystals that reflect blue and white. So when you think of iridescent, think of it as like reflecting that blue light. Yep. So that's, that's underneath the yellow and red. So so far we've got transparent, yellow and red, blue and white. The bottom layer is melanophores, which are cells that produce melanin, the same dark brown pigment that human skin cells produce.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: So in their relaxed, kind of like their idle state, their red chromatophores in that second layer of skin are contracted and bundled up and the yellow chromatophores are expanded. So what that means is that light is bouncing off of the iridophore layer and reflecting back blue. And then it's passing through that yellow layer, which comes to us as green. Because it's blue light bouncing off, passing through yellow pigment, blue plus yellow: green.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: So this is why you can see different veiled chameleons in a resting state will have colors that vary from like a turquoise color to like a greenish yellow. Yeah. So it's just how much light is basically being reflected through that layer.

Christian: Interesting.

Ellen: Yep. So that's why they're naturally green. This gives them a passive camouflage because they are arboreal. They live amongst a lot of foliage, having a green color helps them blend in. However, when they're stressed or agitated or threatened, the chromatophores in their skin expand and contract in different arrangements. So maybe the yellow cells will contract and the red cells will expand, causing the light to pass through more red and making the light turn more red, or the melanophores will expand and the color will get much darker because it's adding that dark brown pigment.

Christian: Okay, that makes sense.

Ellen: Yeah. So it's basically a huge network of colorful cells that are expanding and contracting in different arrangements that mix the color of the light differently that's reflecting off of their skin.

Christian: I'm no expert in color theory, but it sounds like with the colors we're working with here, maybe not every color could be achieved by the chameleon.

Ellen: Some chameleons have much more colorful potential than others. So the veiled chameleon in particular only really has the capability to produce from like, a dark green up to maybe like an orange.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: You're not going to have that like rainbow effect. You're really gonna see from like dark green up to orange, and that's really about it. They can't- veiled chameleons, at least, can't really produce every color. Now, when you get into some other species of chameleons, they have some real stunners. Like, the panther chameleon can kind of make the whole rainbow.

Christian: Interesting.

Ellen: Yep. So, but the veiled chameleon does make a lot of different colors and in different patterns. It's not like all of their skin is turning one color.

Christian: Gotcha.

Ellen: They do it in patterns. So they might have like dark green stripes with yellow spots, or like orange splotches or something like that. They might normally look like a solid green, but then they get agitated and all of a sudden they have stripes and spots.

Christian: Okay, cool.

Ellen: Yeah.

Christian: I'm just now realizing, maybe I made you talk about some of your aesthetic points.

Ellen: I mean, don't worry, it's okay. I have a lot to talk about for effectiveness. I already thought that was going to be my longest segment, so it's okay. We might have to blow through aesthetics...

Christian: No worries.

Ellen: But it's okay. Yeah, so that's how they change colors. Now, there is a misconception that chameleons change their color to match their surroundings.

Christian: Right.

Ellen: Not True. It's not, that's not why they do that. So you know this isn't true because for example, they won't like turn brown because they're sitting on a log. They may be brown while they're on a log, but they won't just be green, step on a log, now they're brown to blend in with the log.

Christian: Dr. Doolittle lied to me.

Ellen: Yeah. So like that's not why they do that. What the color change really... The purpose of the color change really serves is more to do with their emotional state. So their color, they use it to communicate what they're thinking or feeling to other chameleons. So it could reflect their stress levels or their comfort levels or whether they are ready to mate. Something that's interesting is that chameleons will display darker colors in just their idle state when the temperature gets low. So people that have chameleons in captivity will know if their habitat is too cold because their chameleon turns like, very dark green.

Christian: They're like little temperature indicators.

Ellen: Yeah. Well it makes sense because darker colors allow them to absorb more heat.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: So they will like adjust their body color to adapt to their temperature. Yup. Females will use colorful displays to indicate both when they're receptive to mating as well as when they are not receptive to mating. So if a a male tries to holla at a female chameleon and she don't- and she don't want none, she will give him their typical like threatening display. So like when chameleons are like about to fight, like they're gonna throw down, so they turn like really, really dark and they have these bright high contrasting patterns so they'll, they'll have like orange stripes or bright yellow spots or like even like black like markings on them and stuff, very like high contrasting stuff, so she'll do that to signal to the male like, nah. Not tonight. No Sir. And you know, he'll see that and he'll back off. So.

Christian: That's neat.

Ellen: Yeah. Males also will do that to each other. Male veiled chameleons don't want anything to do with each other. You cannot house them together, they cannot share space. They will just immediately fight.

Christian: Wow.

Ellen: Yeah. They don't like each other. Yup. So that's what I had on their skin. It's pretty interesting. The next really cool thing about these veiled chameleons is their tongue.

Christian: Right?

Ellen: It's really cool. So the veiled chameleon hunts- it's an ambush predator, so it hunts by remaining completely motionless until their prey gets close enough for them to catch. Now, their body is very slow. Their legs don't move real good. They're very, very slow. So they definitely couldn't catch like, fast moving prey like insects or something with their mouth just by like lunging at it like maybe other lizards do.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: So instead they use their projectile tongue, which in my opinion is a biomechanical masterpiece. This is so cool. Their tongue can be up to twice as long as their entire body.

Christian: Woah.

Ellen: And they can send it flying, accelerating from 0 to 60 miles per hour or 97 kilometers per hour in 1/100 of a second.

Christian: That's frightening.

Ellen: Yes. Lightning speed. Blink of an eye. That is according to National Geographic by the way. That's where I got that specific number from.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: So the way that they do this is they have a bunch of springy muscles inside of their tongue, and they contract all of those springy muscles, build up a lot, a lot, a lot of tension, and then release it all at once. And this fires the tongue forward like a crossbow.

Christian: Oh geez.

Ellen: Yes. This reminds me of how we talked about the goblin shark, how they fire their whole entire face forward, but this is just the tongue. They've kind of optimized that.

Christian: Huh. I wonder if- does that, like the goblin shark, I wonder if when the Chameleon's tongue is in its mouth, it's always having to hold it with tension.

Ellen: I would imagine not. They will. They probably have it like they probably have it... Like coiled up in their, like neck, one would have to assume.

Christian: Yeah, I guess so.

Ellen: Yeah. So they have this like insane lightning quick speed, and also a range of, you know, up to what? Four feet?

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: If that's twice their body length. So that by itself won't get you your prey. You can send your tongue flying and it's only gonna do you any good if you can reel it back in.

Christian: Right. Because otherwise you're like, "ah, I'm a little wet now."

Ellen: Gotcha. Minor inconvenience, and you're a little weirded out. So what they have armed their tongue with is both a little ball of muscle on the end, so if you've ever looked at a chameleon's tongue and seeing how at the very end of it, it's really, really kind of thick and globular?

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: That's muscle. A little chunk of muscle there at the end. But more importantly, it is coated with the really thick sticky saliva. It has about the consistency of honey.

Christian: Oh.

Ellen: Yep. So it acts as a really, really strong adhesive that brings the prey back to the chameleon's mouth. Yup. The, so the range, the speed and the strength of the tongue allow them to catch prey in the blink of an eye without having to move and give away their body position.

Christian: Pretty ideal.

Ellen: Yeah. Right? Cause they're very, very slow. So like if you run from them, they're done. They cannot chase you.

Christian: End of chase scene.

Ellen: Yeah. So they really have to be as stealthy as they can. This is kind of like the sloth that we just talked about in the last episode. We talked about how the sloth moves very slowly so that it can maintain its camouflage. This is the exact same thing. It moves very slowly.

Christian: Yep!

Ellen: So the next thing I want to talk about is their funky eyes. You know how chameleons have those really weird eyes?

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: If you've never looked too closely at a chameleon's eyes, they are shaped like cones. They're conical in shape and actually, most of their eyes are just eyelid and they only have a very, very teeny tiny opening at the tip of the cone and that's the only place where their eyeball is exposed, is this tiny little pinpoint opening at the sort of apex of their cone. And what I think is kind of funny is that people refer to these eye structures as turrets. That's not a joke. That's not a joke. That's what people call them. They call them turrets.

Christian: That's very funny.

Ellen: Which, yes. That's very funny to us because we play a lot of video games, so like when we hear a turret, we think of like a little combat structure that shoots bullets at things, which then makes me think of a chameleon running around with just little bullets firing out of its eyes and like, its eyes are pointing in all these different directions. So there's just like, pew pew pew all over the jungle. Anyway, their eyes can move in pretty much any direction and each eye can move as well as focus independently of each other.

Christian: Wow.

Ellen: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they can look in two completely opposite directions and focus on each opposite direction at the exact same time.

Christian: Can't even imagine that.

Ellen: It's so cool, isn't it?

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: So what this allows them to do is have depth perception without having to move their head because they can focus on two different points.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: Yeah. They can move their eyes independently at each other, but when they're focusing on something in particular, like maybe they've spotted a prey that they want to catch, they lock both eyes onto it. So they have that kind of stereoscopic vision that allows them to judge the distance which they need. They need to know that distance precisely so that they know how far to fire their tongue.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: Yup. The next thing I want to talk about for their effectiveness is this structure on top of their head. They have this really tall crest on top of their head that is kind of the identifying characteristic of the veiled chameleon as opposed to, say, the panther or the Jackson's chameleon. The veiled chameleon has this very, very tall helmet-like structure on the top of its head, and this is called a casque. C-A-S-Q-U-E. A casque.

Christian: Oh, okay.

Ellen: This actually serves a couple of purposes. The first one is making themselves look bigger to intimidate either predators or other males, because this casque is very, very large and pronounced in males, but females don't really have much of one. They have one, but it's kind of little. It's not so tall. But in males it's very, very tall and impressive, so it either helps them look bigger to intimidate people. To the ladies, it looks pretty good. It's a factor in attracting females. So the larger the casque... You know.

Christian: It's like a fancy hat.

Ellen: Yeah. You know the ladies like a big hat.

Christian: Yep.

Ellen: Anyway. Oh, but the third function that the casque serves is that, um, water slides down it and so they can drink the water that slides down their head.

Christian: I thought you were just gonna say "water slides" and that's it. I was like, that's awesome! I don't know who's using it, but cool!

Ellen: Yeah. You haven't heard that the splash park is installing some veiled chameleons so that we can just take a ride down those water slides?

Christian: I guess my mind was more like, "oh, I got a bug in my mouth. Hey, little buggy. Get on my, uh, my little water slide here."

Ellen: Oh, like it's a trap.

Christian: Yep.

Ellen: Oh, okay.

Christian: And then they're all happy and wet... Munch.

Ellen: Perfect.

Christian: Water slides.

Ellen: It's the perfect plan. Anyway, no. Rather than gathering at the top of their head, water slides down the sloped edges of the casque so that they can, you know, look that water off of their head and get the water that they need.

Christian: Aww, they thorst.

Ellen: Yes, very much so. Well they do live in the Arabian peninsula, and water isn't exactly...

Christian: Right.

Ellen: Super always readily available. There are like rainy seasons but there are also dry seasons where there's very little water available. So that is really good for collecting like dew in the morning so they have enough water.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: So the last thing I want to talk about for their effectiveness is their tail. Their tail is long and it is prehensile. They have complete control over their tail.

Christian: Cool.

Ellen: It's really good at wrapping around branches so they can use it to hold onto a branch and steady themselves. It's really good for that. When they aren't using it to hold onto a branch or something, they keep it curled up underneath their body. So I dunno, I think that's kind of cute.

Christian: Okay, cool. But they... Do they use it to hang from? I have that image in my head for some reason.

Ellen: I've never seen one do that.

Christian: That might be a cartoon thing.

Ellen: Yeah, I've never seen one do that. And I would imagine that they would not do that because they actually are kind of like heavy.

Christian: Yeah, that makes sense.

Ellen: They're a little bit heavy so, and I don't think their tail would be strong enough to hold them up. But, so what's different from chameleons and other lizards is that since the chameleon has a prehensile tail, they can't drop their tail and their tail doesn't grow back if they lose it.

Christian: Oh okay. Okay I see.

Ellen: I mean I, I would imagine the only scenario in which they would just kinda lose their tail would be maybe it got like yanked off by a predator or something. Cause they can't just drop them like other lizards can.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: Not all other lizards of course, but a lot of lizards just get rid of their tail. They can just ditch it and run. But chameleon cannot do that. It is perfect for what they need it for. So you know.

Christian: Yeah. Stabilizing their turrets.

Ellen: Yeah. It's for re-enforcement. So that's my perfect score for effectiveness.

Christian: That's awesome.

Ellen: I thought it was well warranted.

Christian: Yeah, I agree.

Ellen: So moving on to ingenuity. Ingenuity we define as behavioral adaptations that an animal has that maybe give it a little bit of an edge in terms of things like critical thinking, problem solving, tool use, strategy, things like that. I give the chameleon a 5 out of 10.

Christian: Alright.

Ellen: Mm, it's... Ah, not great.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: Not the worst, but not great either. So I gave it a kind of a bunch of points for these instinctive behaviors that it has. So they do this one thing that you'll notice when you see one moving around, they have this swaying behavior where while they're walking they rock back and forth.

Christian: Oh yeah!

Ellen: Have you seen them do this?

Christian: Yeah, like on a branch or something.

Ellen: Yeah, it's real- It's a real vibe that they've got going on. It is like a funky, like a smooth kinda, like they're like doing a little dance.

Christian: Yeah, yeah.

Ellen: You put some like, Bee Gees to that and they've got a real, a real look going cause they're rocking back and forth while they're walking. But they do this for a reason. It is to mimic the movements of a branch or a leaf that is swaying in the wind.

Christian: Oh, I wonder if it only does that when there's wind present.

Ellen: I don't think they're that smart. I think they just do it. I don't think they're thinking about it.

Christian: It could be a detriment.

Ellen: But so ,we talked about this actually with a praying mantis in episode 3.

Christian: Oh, okay!

Ellen: They do this as well.

Christian: Interesting.

Ellen: Although theirs served the additional purpose of allowing them depth perception that they didn't normally have.

Christian: Oh, that's right.

Ellen: Remember that?

Christian: I had forgotten about that.

Ellen: Yup. So, uh, but chameleons do this, it's not for vision purposes. It's just to make them look like a leaf.

Christian: It almost looks like indecisiveness taken to the next level.

Ellen: It does look like that!

Christian: I'm gonna- no, no no. How about- oh, wait, coming back.

Ellen: It does look like that! Yeah. And it kinda gives them that air of uncertainty.

Christian: Which is funny cause it's usually on like a branch. So there's not a ton of choices.

Ellen: Yeah. It's like where are you going to go? What's your plan B here? Yeah. So another behavior that they have that I thought was beneficial is that females- now this is a behavior that is not unique to them. This is very common among lizards. I would say most lizards do this, but the females when they are laying their eggs, they bury them underground.

Christian: Oh!

Ellen: So they will dig a hole in the ground, lay all of their eggs in the hole and then bury them. So this not only protects them until they hatch, but it also allows them to soak up moisture from the ground.

Christian: Ohh, okay.

Ellen: So I mean I figured that was enough that I could give them like a point for it.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: But it is just an instinct. It's not something that they have to like, figure out or something. They just do it. And also like, pretty much almost almost all lizards lay their eggs underground anyway. But still.

Christian: There are a lot of other non-lizard reptiles that do that.

Ellen: Sure, yeah! Like snakes and crocodiles and alligators..

Christian: Turtles.

Ellen: And, yeah. So this is common reptile behavior. Oh, the next thing I gave them ingenuity for is that, so they do that intimidating display when they're scared. Right? They change colors. They also will make this like creaking sound. That's the best way I can describe it. You have to look up a video, but they make this sound, they will hiss. Sure. But they will also make a really frightening creaking sound.

Christian: Huh.

Ellen: Yeah. It's bizarre. It, I guess maybe it's to make it sound like the tree that they're on is falling? Because that's what it sounds like.

Christian: Interesting.

Ellen: Yeah, it's really weird. Um, but anyway, so if their display isn't enough to do the trick and their attacker is still pestering them, they will play dead.

Christian: Haha, okay.

Ellen: Yeah. They just curl up into a ball. They curl up in the fetal position. They will even go so far as to just fall to the ground. Yeah. They'll just, eugh- and yep. And then they fall.

Christian: Very dramatic.

Ellen: They're so extra. Yes. So they will do that, even at the risk of injury.

Christian: Ohhh, chameleon.

Ellen: Yup. So they will just, yeah. You also have to give them some credit for being good enough at geometry to use that like, projectile tongue efficiently. Right? It's kind of like being like a really good sniper. They're essentially like a sharp shooter, so they have to at least be having the cognitive function to figure out that, like angles and projectile speed and stuff like that.

Christian: See, I don't know. I feel like it can't be that much different from how you or I would perceive depth. Right?

Ellen: I guess I'm not necessarily talking about depth perception, but thinking about things like, oh, if my target is traveling in this direction at this speed, I know I need to shoot my tongue to be at this point at this time to catch it.

Christian: I see. What would it be known as a Pro Gamer Move.

Ellen: Yes. No scope 360. I mean they're at least better at that than I am.

Christian: Nah.

Ellen: But so aside from that stuff, which is mostly like instinctive behavior, I really couldn't find a lot of information on their critical thinking or problem solving abilities, at least in the wild. So, thankfully they are commonly kept as pets. So I lurked on some chameleon owner online forums.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: Yup. I found all sorts of like, subreddits and like reptile owner message boards and stuff, and I kind of just lurked and tried to see if I could find any people talking about particularly clever things that their chameleons did. The general consensus is that they're dumb as bricks. They're very dumb.

Christian: Well...

Ellen: Yeah, they're not bright. Now, just like any other animal, I suppose, some of them are a little brighter than others. So people will say that some of them can be trained to be more socialized with their caretakers. Like maybe they will over time gradually associate their caretaker with being fed so they won't react hostile lead to their caretaker. But some of them never, never figure that out. And like no matter how long you've had the chameleon or like, how well you take care of it, they will only try to fight you.

Christian: Aah! This apex predator is back!

Ellen: Yeah. So the general consensus seems to be that while they are extremely optimized physically for what they're going for, they've kind of min-maxed here. Like, physically, they're super capable and they super know what they're doing, but they're not particularly bright. They're very easily lost, they're easily confused and stressed.

Christian: Then they forget they take 1d6 of budgeting damage for every 10 feet fallen! Come on!

Ellen: Read the manual, chameleons! So, some individuals are a little better at learning and adapting to captive life than others. Oh, and also a lot of owners report chameleons having very distinct personalities, and some of them being a little more chill than others. Some of them being a little more ornery. All in all, I only gave them a 5. It's as best as I could give them.

Christian: Seems generous.

Ellen: Yeah, it really was. It really was. So this brings us to aesthetics. It might surprise you, but I give them a 6 out of 10.

Christian: Really?

Ellen: I gave them a 6 out of 10. All six aesthetic points come from their vibrant and colorful skin.

Christian: Gotcha.

Christian: Yes. I could only give them that many though. Like I could only give them- because based on my completely arbitrary and made up rating system, that's as many as I was willing to give them for their colorful skin.

Christian: Yes, you better withhold those imaginary points.

Ellen: So the males are of course visually more impressive than the females, but overall, as far as chameleons go, this one in my opinion is not the prettiest. There are some other chameleons that kinda have a little bit more flair than this one. This one is a little bit more plain Jane. They can display some really bold and interesting patterns on their skin, like the dark brown stripes or bright yellow spots or whatever. But you, you're not going to get those really like deep reds or like, crazy purples or something that you might see in other chameleon species.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: So, this one is not the best. This is not my favorite chameleon to look at. Now, what I thought was kind of funny is that their mouth is permanently frown shaped and their lower jaw kind of like, sticks out a little bit. It kinda juts out. So the frown and the protruding lower jaw, to me, makes them look like a grumpy old man. That's what they look like. They have the face of a grumpy old man, and they got that like wrinkly skin and stuff? Yeah, they don't look happy, which I can't tell if they really just do have a grumpy personality or if that's just, they just look like that.

Christian: I don't know.

Ellen: They're typically kind of irritable and they really prefer to be left alone. And that combined with the grumpy old man face just really...

Christian: A theme.

Ellen: Yeah. So what is funny is that when you look at them from head on, it's really funny.

Christian: Why is that?

Ellen: It's, when you look at them from- well because when you look at them from head on, their eyes are pointing in different directions! It's ridiculous! It's so silly!

Christian: And if they both focus on you, you're about to get licked from four feet away.

Ellen: I mean, I don't think they actually would like a human being because like, I think they're only using their tongue to try to catch prey and they only really try to prey on things that are small enough to fit in their mouth.

Christian: What if there's like a bug on your face?

Ellen: Well then yeah, then you better look out. You gotta make sure you got no bugs on your face. So yeah, when you look at them from head on, they look pretty ridiculous.

Christian: Yeah. Is this species one of the ones that has the weird toes?

Ellen: Yes. So what's interesting about that- I can't believe I didn't mention this earlier, but what's interesting about their feet is that when you look at them, they look like they have two toes. So each kind of toe is opposing the other one. So it's like they have one big fat toe on either side of their foot inkind of like a pincer-shaped sort of appendage. So they actually have five toes, but they're fused together in such a way where it looks like they only have two.

Christian: Okay. And this is so they can just kind of wrap them around branches?

Ellen: Yeah. They're, I mean they have these teeny teeny tiny little claws on them, but they're not going to do anything with them. That's just all there is to it. They're just little, little pads.

Christian: Gotcha.

Ellen: Yeah. Uh, yeah. We, we like to make fun of our dog on this show, our dog is a small beagle, and what's really funny about her is that when you look at it from head on, you can tell that her eyes go in opposite directions much like those of a chameleon.

Christian: I don't think it's out of a choice.

Christian: No, she just, she just be like that. So, um, yeah, I just wanted to have a note about that, that her eyes are weird.

Christian: Yeah. And also maybe not the brightest dog, but she's so sweet.

Christian: She's very chameleon-like in many ways.

Christian: She also stays still in the hopes that no one will notice her.

Ellen: Sometimes I wish she would. To recap, that was a 10 out of 10 for effectiveness, a 5 out of 10 for ingenuity, and a 6 out of 10 for aesthetics for the veiled chameleon.

Christian: Well done, veiled chameleon.

Ellen: Yup. So I will wrap up with just a couple of quick little facts about the veiled chameleon.

Christian: Hit me with those facts.

Ellen: Their conservation status is of least concern.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: So their populations are stable right now, but since they don't move very quickly and they don't share territory with each other very well, they are really, really vulnerable to habitat loss and they are facing a lot of habitat loss due to human development of the areas where they live in. Now, they have established small breeding populations in both Hawaii and Fort Myers, Florida.

Christian: Really?

Ellen: Yup. They are considered invasive to those areas. Very, very small populations, but what is important to monitor about those is that one female, and one clutch of eggs lays between 30 and 90 eggs at a time.

Christian: Oh, we got a Godzilla situation on our hands.

Ellen: It's a lot of babies! And so that's like up to a max of like 90 or 100 eggs in one clutch, three clutches per year.

Christian: Whoa.

Ellen: Yes. It's so many. So you can see why you have to kind of stay on top of that. Right?

Christian: Sure, sure.

Ellen: Especially when it's an invasive species that has a tendency not to be like preyed on by local predators... You can see how it could get real bad real fast.

Christian: Yeah. Although I wonder on the list of invasive species in Florida, I imagine this one isn't too high up on that list.

Ellen: Oh no, it's, they've only been seen in like one small, like rural area of Lee County, Florida. So it's, they, they've only been spotted like maybe like a couple of times out there, but it was, I guess just said that they were a breeding population. So I don't know. I saw it on the Florida Fish and Wildlife website.

Christian: Neat!

Ellen: Yep. So that's where I got that from. Just to kind of like tie this back into my personal experience, I kind of picked the veiled chameleon because I have interacted with veiled chameleons. I used to work at a pet store that actually sold veiled chameleons, and during the time that I worked there, we had like a couple of little chameleons. One of them that we had in there, it was a veiled chameleon and was a little girl and she was in there for a very long time because, well, first of all, they're pretty expensive and they're very, very high maintenance as far as reptiles go. They're not like bearded dragons or something where you just have them in a cage and feed them every once in awhile and that's all you have to do. They're like you have to keep their area very humid, you have to like mist them frequently cause they typically won't, you can train them to drink water out of like a bottle or something but you, they typically won't drink like standing water so you have to like keep their habitat misted and they're very sensitive to like temperature changes. It's just, it's a whole thing. They're like an advanced pet so you're not getting like randos that are just going to be walking in every day to buy a chameleon. So they're very expensive, they're very high maintenance and since they are sensitive to stress, this one that we had in our store, we actually kept in the back room. So we had, we had her in a little, I want to say it was like a 20 maybe 29 gallon tank that we had done up. All spruced up with really nice branches and foliage and stuff in there. And we would have to go back there like three or four times a day and mist her tank.

Christian: Wow.

Ellen: And take like insanely good care of her because, well we had a really good manager, right. That was making sure that she was well cared for and keeping a close eye on her, but like we had to keep her in the back so that like people weren't tapping on her glass and stuff like they would for the other reptiles. You know, like little kids will run up to the glass and like pound on it or something?

Christian: Yeah.

Christian: We kept her in the back so that people wouldn't be bothering her. It was like on our by request basis that you could see her.

Christian: Sure. How did people know that she was there then?

Ellen: So we actually kept like the card out, you know how they have cards like on the shelves that say what, like the price tag basically? So we had her card out that said "veiled chameleon" with a price on it. And so people would have to come up to us and say, "Hey, I see you have a thing for a chameleon." And we'd say, "yeah, she's in the back. You want to see her?"

Christian: Oh, you could be like, "oh, she's hiding. You can't see her?"

Ellen: We could have if we wanted to! Yeah. We kept her in the back and kept really good care of her. And I got to, I got to kind of hold her and interact with her a few times and she didn't like that very much. So I tried not, I only interacted with her when I had to do substrate changes in her tank, and like clean her tank and stuff. So I would only pick her up to move her into a small like container so that I could quickly clean her tank and then put her right back. I wasn't like, messing with her too much.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: They don't like that. My manager told me that handling a chameleon decreases its life span. So we tried not to. They don't live that long anyway. They only live like five years.

Christian: Oh Wow. Okay.

Ellen: Yeah. Yeah, so that was my personal experience with a veiled chameleon. And that wraps things up for me.

Christian: Awesome. Thank you, honey.

Ellen: Thank you very much.

Ellen: All right, my Darlin. What'd you got for us this week?

Christian: For this week, I've got the kea!

Ellen: A kea!

Christian: So this is a bird.

Ellen: Birb friend!

Christian: Yes, its scientific name is Nestor notabilis. This species was submitted by Dustin Barnett. Thank you Dustin.

Ellen: This was also requested by our buddy Brad. Brad requested that we talk about some New Zealand birds because he is from New Zealand.

Christian: Oh!

Ellen: Yeah. He's from the Fate of Isen podcast as well as the Adventures of Jeff and Simon.

Christian: Oh, cool. So thank you Dustin, and thank you Brad.

Ellen: Yep! Thank you.

Christian: And my information for this is coming from New Zealand Birds Online, which can be found www.nzbirdsonline.org.nz, as well as Kea Conservation Trust at www.keaconservation.co.nz.

Ellen: So many dots.

Christian: And then finally, I'll also be referencing a YouYube video from BBC Earth. I will talk more about that later.

Ellen: Oh, okay.

Christian: So a little info about this fine, fine birb. It is also known as the mountain parrot, or the New Zealand mountain parrot. It is an olive green parrot with scarlet underwings and a slender gray-black bill.

Ellen: I like this color Combo.

Christian: It's very good. I like it personally.

Ellen: I like the green and red.

Christian: Yeah. Its adult size is around 46 centimeters long, or about 18 inches. Males weighe 900 to 1100 grams or 32 to 39 ounces, and the females weigh 700 to 900 grams, or 25 to 32 ounces.

Christian: So the females weigh less.

Ellen: Okay. Makes Sense.

Christian: Now I know we talk about this a lot, where you know the male and female forms of an animal are different and I wasn't sure if we ever mentioned what the term for that is. What we're talking about when we talk about that is that's when something is sexually dimorphic. So that means the different sexes will show different characteristics, other than their, I'll say, the anatomy specific to reproduction. So these little birds, as you can probably guess from the sources I just cited, are found from New Zealand, specifically the South Island.

Ellen: The South Island of New Zealand?

Christian: Yes. Where the, it's very mountainous.

Ellen: Okay. I am sorry. I know so little about New Zealand and its general topography.

Christian: Same. Um, outside of...

Ellen: Is this... near the Shire?

Christian: I don't think so. This is probably where the mountain scenes were filmed.

Ellen: Oh, this is the misty mountains. Okay, alright cool. Am I allowed to say that?

Christian: I'm sure all of our New Zealand listeners are tired of hearing about Lord of the Rings, so...

Ellen: They have unsubscribed... right now.

Christian: I'm going to continue on.

Ellen: Okay.

Christian: So this is the only truly alpine parrot in the entire world. So I mean the only parrot found in mountains.

Ellen: Yeah, I guess you normally hear about parrots living in like, jungles.

Christian: Right. It belongs to the taxonomic family Strigopoidea.

Ellen: Strigopoidea?

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: Cute.

Christian: Other things in that family or other New Zealand birds. So the kaka or the kakapo, other birds also found in New Zealand. Now I'm just gonna jump right into the scoring system.

Ellen: Excellent.

Christian: For effectiveness, I'm giving this guy an 8 out of 10.

Ellen: That's pretty good!

Christian: Very strong flyer, very good at flying. And the other big chunk is their diet. They are omnivorous. They eat plants, insects, grubs and carrion.

Ellen: I feel like that's unusual for a parrot.

Christian: Right. And they actually have a rare behavior, but this behavior has gotten them a bit of a bad rep. So occasionally, they will go and attack domestic sheep.

Ellen: Ah- wha-!

Christian: Yes! So they will pick through skin and muscle to get to fat deposits that are around their kidneys.

Ellen: This isn't how I thought this was gonna go! This just took the most insane turn, I have whiplash from what you just told me!

Christian: Yes. So it's very odd, right? So they'll go for these little fat deposits in these sheep, a very specific fat deposit.

Ellen: WHAT!!!

Christian: So this in itself does not kill the sheep. Um, however, the sheep can fall prone- or, can fall prey to sepsis.

Ellen: You just said they fall prone.

Christian: Well, you see they get sepsis, they die, and then they're prone.

Ellen: Oh No. Oh my God. They might as well just kill the sheep, put it out of its misery.

Christian: That's how, I mean, that's how it sometimes ends up. But...

Ellen: Aw, man...

Christian: So this kind of, this was a rare behavior. This does not happen very often.

Ellen: Okay, phew. All right.

Christian: However, the little times it does happen was enough to get them a bad reputation.

Ellen: Huh, yeah.

Christian: So they were, there was a bounty on them for a time.

Ellen: Fool me once!

Christian: To the point where they, there was a bit of a bit of concern. They had to be protected. I'll talk about more of that at the end when I talk about conservation status.

Ellen: Okay.

Christian: So, but just as a lead-up to that, that's why.

Ellen: I'm still reeling from what you just told me. I cannot.

Christian: Right?

Ellen: Man. That threw me for a loop. All right.

Christian: So that's my 8 out of 10 for effectiveness. I thought that was pretty impressive for a bird, honestly.

Ellen: They have to be good, to take down a sheep? Good Lord! Oh my God.

Christian: Yeah. Ingenuity: Another 8 out of 10.

Ellen: Okay.

Christian: So these are very intelligent birds, even when compared to other parrots and birds and mammals.

Ellen: Why only 8?

Christian: Uh, it's completely arbitrary. That's all I got for you. That was just what I felt in my bones.

Ellen: Okay, what you feel in your heart, that's fine.

Christian: Kay. Uh, so they're able to solve puzzles that are presented to them to get food.

Ellen: Very good.

Christian: So earlier I mentioned a YouTube video, and that is a YouTube video titled "Sneaky kea raids a garbage bin" by BBC earth.

Ellen: Oh!

Christian: So there are two little segments in this video, and it's not that long of a video. The first one is obviously they are getting into garbage cans. Whoever filmed it put these heavy wood logs on top of the bins, and these are the kind where you would put out on the street for the garbage truck to pick up. So they cannot be open because of these heavy logs. So they showed the video of these keas just figuring out which logs they needed to move, and they had enough strength to move them, too. Like with their beaks.

Ellen: That's a dangerous combination, of being both smart and strong?

Christian: Yeah. So yeah, they were able to get these logs off the trash cans and get into the, the, the tasty treats inside.

Ellen: Oh no.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: They ain't supposed to be there. This is a raccoon with a can opener.

Christian: So here's the thing, they're kind of known as being a little bit destructive.

Ellen: Oh.

Christian: So, uh, in addition to being smart, they also like going for little knickknacks and shiny things. So the area that they live in is also where a lot of ski resorts are in New Zealand. So what'll happen is you'll have these parking lots of people's cars that are out there to come ski and they'll kind of hop on cars and start pulling stuff off that they find interesting.

Ellen: What! They don't even need it!

Christian: So it's like little things like radio antennas or uh, the rubber sealings around windows and windshields.

Ellen: That's so unnecessarily rude! They're going out of their way to just ruin people's days.

Christian: So it's kind of starting to make sense why they were just bounty hunted.

Ellen: Oh my god. I, well, I kind of love this a little bit because this is kind of like, humans are that invasive conqueror that just like moves into a land they're not supposed to be in and just like lays waste to the ecosystem, and like deforests and like ruins habitats and stuff. And the keas are like, fighting back.

Christian: Nah Brah.

Ellen: This is the most punk rock bird I've ever heard of in my life. This is a punk superstar. I love this punk bird.

Christian: But yeah, so the second part of that video is where they set up a little, a little prize-type puzzle. So what they do is they take this little plastic cylinder, they coat it in butter, which is apparently a favorite snack.

Ellen: Oh, same.

Christian: And then they, it's kind of hard to describe in words, but it's basically a puzzle that they have to solve to get to the butter. Something they showed was, you know, the, the first dea that did it took a little while to figure it out. It was like a minute or two or something, but there's a second dea that was watching. So when it was, that kea's turn, it was able to do it quicker because it was watching and learning.

Ellen: Ohhhh, it learned.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: I'm sorry, I'm just now getting tickled by the thought of it being so motivated by butter. That's so funny!

Christian: I have a theory.

Ellen: That's a slow burn, but it really just hit me. It's really funny.

Christian: And they have to use their like, tongues to get at it, too. Cause you can't like, beak up some butter. Right? It's going to stick to your beak.

Ellen: It's like when we put peanut butter on Puppy's nose and she can't quite get it all.

Christian: Oh, Puppy, we dunk on you twice this episode.

Ellen: Ohh, two for two.

Christian: So yeah, I have a theory. Um, butter is their favorite snack. Fact number one.

Ellen: I've accepted it.

Christian: Fact number two, they do terrible things to sheep sometimes for fat deposits.

Ellen: *gasp* It's all starting to come together!

Christian: They like that stuff.

Ellen: They sure do- Oh my gosh! Maybe they're- you know what they were doing, by going after those sheep. They were trying to get butter straight from the source.

Christian: Yeah, I guess, I mean-

Ellen: No more middleman.

Christian: I have a taste.

Ellen: You're trying to get straight to that, they're trying to get that farm to table, like grass-fed butter.

Christian: I don't know man.

Ellen: Dang, that's... I'm just so charmed by their love of butter. Because I too love butter!

Christian: Right? So yeah, 8 out of 10 for ingenuity.

Ellen: I love this bird.

Christian: Before I move on, I want to tell you a little something about how they learn. So with this species, apparently the juveniles are tolerated by the adults, even unrelated adults.

Ellen: Oh.

Christian: So this facilitates better learning of complex foraging skills.

Ellen: Okay, okay. It takes a village.

Christian: Yeah. That might have something to do with how well they, you know, they do and learn. Whereas I guess the implication is other bird species don't usually hang out with other adults as juveniles.

Ellen: Sure, they're like, yeah, go on, get.

Christian: Right, right.

Ellen: Leave me alone. Whose kid is this?

Christian: Moving on to aesthetics, pretty straightforward here. This is my third 8 out of 10 for this bird.

Ellen: Straight across the board. All right. That's decent.

Christian: So as, as we mentioned earlier, this is a very aesthetically pleasing bird. It has, it's mostly green. The undersides of its wings are, has that crimson like splash.

Ellen: Mmm, very stylish. Subtle.

Christian: Good bird.

Ellen: Yeah.

Christian: Well, from a distance.

Ellen: I'm just, I'm, I'm so charmed by all the other things you told me about this bird.

Christian: Surprising, right? So I got some miscellaneous facts. Uh, just a quick recap. Well, I guess I don't need one, cause we just said 8 out of tens across the board. Conservation status. So on the IUCN red list, it is listed as endangered, population trend: decreasing.

Ellen: Noooo! My best friends that I just learned about!

Christian: And under the New Zealand threat classification, they're listed as nationally threatened/endangered. So like I mentioned, they were hunted to protect sheep up until 1971 and then they were granted full protection in 1986.

Ellen: Okay. That's quite the turnaround.

Christian: Yeah. Current threats include predation by introduced mammalian predators, as well as environmental lead. So like from paint, oh that sort of thing.

Ellen: Oh, it... Lead?

Christian: Yes. Lead in paint?

Ellen: How... What does that have to do with the keas though?

Christian: So I mentioned they're kind of destructive, so...

Ellen: Oh, no.

Christian: I think the problem is with ingestion.

Ellen: Oh, they're eating paint chips?! Maybe they did deserve that 8 out of 10.

Christian: That's, that's my, that's my thought process at least. I don't actually know specifically like how are they usually getting at lead. And then also human conflict and accidents.

Ellen: Clearly.

Christian: Cause the, even though they're protected, they still have cases here and there of people hunting them down and doing some pretty terrible things with them. One of the sources I talked about, the Kea Conservation Trust, offers ways for people to volunteer and donate. They also provide information on how to live side by side with kea, like a husbandry guide. If you're keeping, I guess... I wouldn't call them domestic.

Ellen: Please don't keep this as a pet.

Christian: Don't do it.

Ellen: No, don't do it.

Christian: Also, guides for plantation forestry. So folks that run forestries in the area, they might not enjoy the kea very much, but I read the guide a little bit, it kind of shows, it gives tips on how to live side by side with those in that profession. And finally I mentioned the lead. So they also give a pamphlet for lead removal for kea. And that's kinda, that's mostly for houses that were built prior to, I think 1980.

Ellen: Oh, sure, when lead was a thing.

Christian: That are likely to have lead based paint. Yeah. I don't, I don't know whose idea that was. Lead everywhere!

Ellen: Yeah, just make it all lead. It's fine. Nobody cares.

Christian: So yeah, that's the kea!

Ellen: I- this... Wow. Okay. This was the animal that I went from, like knowing nothing about to being completely in love with. Like I have a memory in my head of watching some sort of Animal Planet show that had a kea in it. I want to say it was like an episode of that old show, like The Most Extreme. Do you remember that show?

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: I want to say there was an episode of The Most Extreme that had the kea on there as something like smartest animals or something. So I had heard of them but I knew so little about them. I didn't even know like where they were from or anything, but I knew that, you know, Dustin had first requested it and then our New Zealand pals had requested that we talk about some New Zealand birds cause there are some very interesting little dudes over there.

Christian: Yeah, yeah. So while they might be a little destructive and mischievous. I do think there is still a net good, so well worth protecting.

Ellen: And I mean you got to address: punk rock icon. I mean I think there's something to be said for their anarchistic tendencies.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: I love them.

Christian: "Man, I'm going to go to the parking lot of those rich folk doing ski things. I'm going to take their windshield liner! Ha ha!"

Ellen: There is literally nothing more just perfectly and classically counter-culture than going to the ski lodge and ripping up the cars at the ski lodge. That is like straight out of some early nineties teen movie, with like the misunderstood troubled like, street gang of kids that like, want to go fight the power and like stick it to the man so they go and rip windshield lining out of people's cars at the ski lodge! That's so funny! I love them and everything that they do.

Christian: Interesting little little dudes.

Ellen: Yeah, I stan the kea. Best friends. Alright! So as I mentioned at the top of the episode, we are adding in a new segment at the end of each episode because you guys, just absolutely wonderful audience, have been really reaching out to us and communicating a lot with us and letting us know what you think and giving us a lot of feedback and just being really, really cool. And we really like what you're saying and we want you guys to feel like you are part of the show because you are. So I want to start incorporating some of the responses that you're giving us into our episode in this little segment that I'm sticking onto the end. I'm going to start with this message that I have received from multiple people. In episode 11 during the meerkat segment, I speculated on Timon's reasoning for being separated from his meerkat mob, suggesting that he was ousted for egregious war crimes. Now, it has since been brought to my attention that Timon's backstory is canonically addressed in The Lion King 1 1/2, a movie that I did not see in which, um, he first at the beginning- oh spoiler alert, spoiler alert, spoiler alert. He first causes some tunnel collapse issues and then he fails at sentry duty and he's too ashamed to return to his colony so he leaves to make a new life for himself. So just clearing the air, Timon didn't canonically intentionally kill anybody. I'm just putting that out there to clear Timon's name.

Christian: It's a tragedy.

Ellen: Yeah. This was brought to my attention specifically by Kyle Rauch, Leah Ludlum and Nina Watson, and Nina Watson, by the way, in chatting about the Lion King today had the following to say that I just really enjoyed it and I thought it was really funny. She said, "I watched the first movie (meaning the Lion King) literally every single day for years. I would even roar at the parts where the lions did, and my mom had to take me to the doctor cause by 5-year-old self made calluses in my tonsils." How on-brand is that?!That's so funny. I thought that was really funny. Just imagine a little five year old girl just, rawr! Rawr! Rawr! And then having to go to the doctor cause she rawr'd too much. And that conversation with the doctor had to have been precious cause like, "how did this happen?" And the mom's just like, "she roared too much."

Ellen: So the next thing that I wanted to say was that, um, we had some supplemental information given to us. So K, from the podcast Tone Deaf: A Theater Nerd's Guide for Their Spouse, wanted to share some extra fun facts with us about the raven in response to the raven segment in episode 13. K says, "they are mostly monogamous and they tend to keep around at least one child to help raise the next batch of children. They also have family reunions of a sort and have been witnessed holding funerals." They say, "if I remember right, one person actually documented the calls of these birds and found that there were at least 40 different calls and that ravens in different areas have different dialects and call differently to each other."

Christian: Interesting.

Ellen: Yeah. So a K recommends the book "Mind of the Raven" by Bernd Heinrich for more insight.

Christian: Very cool.

Ellen: Last little note, I wanted to kind of end on this because I love it, Ashley Tucker, the same person who suggested the chameleon said in response to the blobfish segment in episode 16, Ashley said, "I am dying at how you slammed Mr Blobby for his creative name when you have a dog named Puppy."

Christian: Ah! Dang! We've been the dunked on now!

Ellen: Dragged through the mud. We have been called out. Yes, our dog's name is Puppy. Listen. Okay. I didn't name her. Alright? It's not my fault. She's very dumb. I tried to give her a new name and she's not a bright dog. I'm so sorry.

Christian: That's okay. We love her.

Ellen: We do love our dog very much. So yeah, those were some highlights from our audience responses that I wanted to share with you guys.

Christian: I loved all of that.

Ellen: Yeah. It's really great. I mean, y'all are the best. I love y'all so much. Y'all are so good. So on that note, I would really like to thank everybody who has been listening to the show, recommending us to your friends. Oh, and also rating and reviewing us on like iTunes and other podcatchers and stuff. We have some really, really sweet reviews on iTunes. They makes me really happy to read them, so if you haven't yet, please make your way over to whatever podcast app you are using and drop us a review. I hope that we have earned a good review from you, so just let us know what you think.

Christian: Yeah!

Christian: Yeah. You can connect with us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram or on Discord. We have our own channel on the Podcast Junkie discord server. You can find a link to that, I dunno. Somewhere. I'm sure.

Christian: Google it or whatever, I don't know!

Christian: Podcast Junkie Discord server, come hang out with us. We're on there all the time and it's lit and we just basically talk about animals all day and it's great. Also, please, please, please, if you are on Facebook, please join the Just the Zoo of Us: Official Friend Squad group. I am so thrilled that y'all have liked the page, but using pages on Facebook is kind of frustrating. So we're using a group instead and it's lit. It's so good.

Christian: It is!

Ellen: It's a great group. And I'm so thrilled to be connecting with you all on there. Also, I did put a call out this week for reptile-specific requests because we had like no reptile requests and there were like 75 comments on that thread. So definitely get in that group and get your requests in there.

Christian: Now we will never want for more reptiles.

Ellen: No, we have like 400 reptiles. It's great. Well prior to that we had like three and we had like 800 mammal requests so.

Christian: Well we could do a year of reptiles now if we want.

Ellen: Yeah, I like to, I like to mix things up. You know how I do. So anyway, on that note, if you have an animal species you want to hear us review, you can submit those to us either on social media or at our Gmail address, thezooofus@gmail.com a transcript of this episode will be made available at just the zoo of us. Dot home.blog. And last note, I want to thank Louie Zong for the use of his song "Adventuring" from his album, Bee Sides.

Christian: It's our theme song.

Ellen: ...Yeah. Yeah, it is.

Christian: I don't know why- I was going somewhere with that, and I stopped.

Ellen: You lost your way.

Christian: Dear future, Ellen. I'm so sorry, but I hope you still love me.

Ellen: I do. I love you very much.

Christian: Ahh! You're talking through current Ellen! Ahh!

Ellen: Oh no, it's the singularity! Oh No! I've collapsed the time space continuum!

Christian: Alright.

Ellen: Podcast over bye!

Christian: Bye everyone!