32: Inca Tern & European Eel

Ellen: Hello everybody, this is Ellen Weatherford.

Christian: And Christian Weatherford.

Ellen: And we are here withJust the Zoo of Us, your favorite animal review podcast where we take your favorite species of animals and review them and rate them out of 10 in the categories of effectiveness, ingenuity and aesthetics.

Christian: We are not zoological experts, although I like to think we get closer to that one step at a time every week.

Ellen: You're just listening to us take our very own independent study course in zoology.

Christian: From Google university.

Ellen: We don't just Google, Christian.

Christian: That's where it starts, for me.

Ellen: Listen, every journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

Christian: A single Google.

Ellen: Speaking of that, we do a lot of research and we make sure that we're bringing you information from good, trustworthy sources.

Christian: Definitely not made up.

Ellen: Definitely didn't make any of this up. Before we get into our animals, I wanted to just update folks with two quick things, the first of which was kind of a win for us. This past week was Giving Tuesday, and we were able to donate $85 to the Wildlife Conservation Network this year, and that was all of our ad revenue for this year.

Christian: Yeah, so that was one of our earliest goals with this project. So it was a good feel-good moment.

Ellen: It was really cool. And we were able to do that because of all the support that we have received from our Patreon and from our live show revenue and stuff like that, that was able to make it possible for us to donate our ad revenue. So if you listened to us at all this year, you had a hand on that ball, so thank you to everybody who helped us be able to do that.

Christian: Yes, thank you so much.

Ellen: And the second thing that I wanted to say before we get started is that this will be our final episode of 2019. We will be taking a couple of weeks off. We are blessed with a large and beautiful family and we have many obligations to attend to as Christmas comes up. So we're going to be taking a couple of weeks off, there will be no new episode for the rest of the year and we'll be back with- our next new episode will go up on Wednesday, January 1st of 2020. So, darling, what animal do you have for us this week?

Christian: This week, I have a recently in-demand bird.

Ellen: Yeah, you guys are going nuts for this bird.

Christian: The Inca tern.

Ellen: I love this friend.

Christian: Scientific name: Larosterna inca. The species was submitted by Dalton Weeks.

Ellen: And also, I think, Dustin Barnett.

Christian: So yes. Thank you all for submitting this species. Today, I'm pulling my information from three sources. First, the Jacksonville Zoo, specifically their website found at jacksonvillezoo.org.

Ellen: Woo woo! That's our zoo. That's our home zoo.

Christian: It is. Secondly, the National Aviary, which is found in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and their website is at aviary.org. And finally, an interesting pull, the National Museum of American History, part of the Smithsonian.

Ellen: Okay....

Christian: Found at americanhistory.si.edu.

Ellen: Okay. I'll be eagerly awaiting our history lesson.

Christian: Yes, me too.

Ellen: Oh no. Why did you say that so deviously?

Christian: You'll see. So first up, I'll save the physical description of this bird mostly for the aesthetic section...

Ellen: [whispers] it's so good.

Christian: So, unfortunately I couldn't find a whole lot of technical details on this particular species. When I'm talking about adult size, I'm going to say pigeon sized.

Ellen: How many chickens is that?

Christian: Three quarters.

Ellen: We have really been slacking on our chicken measurements.

Christian: It kinda depends, right? Is it one of those buffed up Tyson chickens or...?

Ellen: No.

Christian: That chicken lifts. So this bird, the Inca tern can be found and the Pacific coast of South America, from northern Peru to central Chile.

Ellen: I'm assuming that's where the name Inca tern comes from.

Christian: I assume the same.

Ellen: Like, the areas populated by the Incan people.

Christian: Yeah. They belong to the taxonomic family Laridae. Other things that belong to that family are gulls, terns and skimmers.

Ellen: Gulls?

Christian: Yes. So the Inca tern is a seabird.

Ellen: Okay. I didn't know that. That's pretty cool.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: But now that I'm thinking of it, I can see the similarity in the shape of the beak to a gull.

Christian: Yeah. Yeah, so again, I'll talk more about this later, but one of the most unique identifiers of this species is this mustache.

Ellen: I love it.

Christian: Uh, so yeah, we talked about how it lives off the coast of South America and these are mostly on sea-adjacent areas like cliffs and islands and that sort of thing.

Ellen: Sure.

Christian: I'll dive right into our first category of effectiveness. How well do they do the things they do? I'm giving the Inca tern a 7 out of 10. They catch their prey, which includes small fish like anchovies and crustaceans, by diving and dipping into the water.

Ellen: Oh, they're divers.

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: That's pretty interesting.

Christian: Yeah. They kind of have that streamlined look, and you'll also notice they have webbed feet.

Ellen: That they do.

Christian: Yeah. So they're pretty good at that, catching their food that way. They flock by the thousands when feeding sometimes.

Ellen: Woah. I would love to see a big flock of these big pretty boys.

Christian: Ingenuity, I'm giving a 6 out of 10, primarily because they often follow fishing boats and surfacing sea lions looking for scraps.

Ellen: Oh, so they're a little resourceful.

Christian: Yeah. So you can see this with regular gulls, where there's a shrimp boat or a small fishing boat near shore, you'll see a bunch of birds flying around trying to... Being opportunistic.

Ellen: Are they as insistently annoying as seagulls?

Christian: I can only assume, yeah.

Ellen: We live in Jacksonville, Florida, which is very close to a beach, and the seagulls are less than kind.

Christian: Yeah. Don't feed them.

Ellen: They have a reputation. Well, you don't have to feed them.

Christian: They feed themselves.

Ellen: If you have food on the beach, they're going to get it. You don't have to give it to them.

Christian: Another point I'm giving them for ingenuity is when they're nesting, they'll sometimes use abandoned Humboldt penguin nests.

Ellen: Okay.

Christian: Yeah. So they live in the same area as those penguins.

Ellen: Huh. How far South is that?

Christian: Well, keep in mind how far south Chile goes.

Ellen: It does go way down there. It starts to approach like, Antarctica.

Christian: Yup. But these are still penguins that are found in relatively warmer climates.

Ellen: Right. Okay. So yeah, I guess I was thinking of them being more like tropical, like warm climate birds. But then you said penguins and I was like, oh!

Christian: Yeah, I guess these are the penguins that are more used to being on land and rock rather than ice.

Ellen: Sure. That makes sense. Cause you also said that they're living on like cliffs and stuff, so. Okay, interesting. I hadn't thought of that being an overlap.

Christian: Yeah. And moving on to the final category of aesthetics, pretty self explanatory, I'm giving a full 10 out of 10 for aesthetics.

Ellen: Oh, they're so good. They're the best ones.

Christian: Yes. So earlier I mentioned they're mustachioed, and I'll give a general description for those that haven't seen a picture, although I suppose you will see a picture when clicking this episode.

Ellen: I'm going to put the best picture I can find as the episode cover.

Christian: They have gray feathers, they have red webbed feet and their beak is also red. They have white tipped wings and their mustache is white. And also they have a little splash of yellow coloration under that mustache.

Ellen: And the mustache is incredibly well defined.

Christian: Yeah!

Ellen: It is like an iconic, very well defined handlebar.

Christian: Yeah. And from my understanding, it's specialized feathers in some way. So that's my general ratings. The meat of this animal comes in it's fun facts, I think.

Ellen: Oh, that's my favorite.

Christian: So first I'll mention their conservation status. On the IUCN, they're listed as Near Threatened, with population trend decreasing. So, their population kind of comes and goes with El Niño so that affects their, like where they're at at any given time cause they're following the food basically. And next I'd like to talk about the reproduction just a little bit. Their courtship displays occur in midair.

Ellen: What!

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: Oh my gosh.

Christian: And then they lay one to two speckled, coffee-colored eggs.

Ellen: Oh, I love that.

Christian: Yeah. I bet they're really cute. Now, my favorite thing.

Ellen: Let's hear it.

Christian: So one of the places that they're often found are known as guano islands.

Ellen: Oh no... Oh, gross.

Christian: So, this describes any island where sea birds are often found, so much so that they have a buildup of guano, which for those unaware, guano is the droppings of sea birds and bats are also described that way too.

Ellen: I feel like "guano" I usually hear in reference to bats.

Christian: Yep. I think something that made that popular was Ace Ventura. One of the Ace Ventura movies.

Ellen: You want to know something? I've never seen an Ace Ventura movie. I'm so sorry.

Christian: I highly suggest them. Or sorry, I highly recommend them.

Ellen: Okay, maybe we'll watch them together.

Christian: You know what? That might be in hindsight, though. It's been years and years and years since I've seen them. We'll see.

Ellen: We'll see how they hold up.

Christian: All right, so here's where this comes into play. This sent me on a, kind of a rabbit hole of what guano islands are all about. And what happened was the Western cultures started realizing how it's good as a fertilizer. So the native people of South America had been using him as fertilizer for a long, long, long time, and actually in the 1500's the Spaniards saw this and they were just like, "no, that's gross." And then they, they didn't do anything with it.

Ellen: That's hilarious to me that they saw them using like, one of the most potent fertilizers that naturally occurs in massive quantities and is completely free and they saw this like, incredibly innovative and useful technique and they were like, "Oh nasty. Let's not."

Christian: So hundreds of years later, in the mid 19th century, the U.S. had an insatiable appetite for guano to enrich its worn out crop soils.

Ellen: Please don't phrase that sentence that way. Please don't lead with the U.S. having an insatiable appetite for guano. Don't say it that way.

Christian: It is uh, validated because our 13th president Millard Fillmore, in his 1850 State of the Union Address, part of it included this, and I quote...

Ellen: This is a way weirder pull than I thought we were going to get.

Christian: So this is where the U.S. history comes in: "Peruvian guano has become so desirable and article to the agricultural interest of the United States that it is the duty of the govern... [laughter] It is the duty of the government to employ all the means properly in its power for the purpose of causing that article to be imported into the country at a reasonable price. Nothing will be omitted on my part toward accomplishing this desirable end. I am persuaded that in removing any restraints on this traffic, the Peruvian government will promote its own best interests, while it will afford a proof of a friendly disposition toward this country, which will be duly appreciated."

Ellen: It is the what of this country?

Christian: It is the DUTY of this country.

Ellen: [laughing] We are grown adults, both of us. We have cars and mortgages.

Christian: So this leads to the Guano Islands Act of 1856.

Ellen: That shouldn't have an act.

Christian: It did, which it came about for the sake of sea bird droppings, used as a powerful fertilizer such that the U.S. Congress authorized our nation's earliest significant expansion beyond the continent.

Ellen: Okay.

Christian: So prior to this we had been mainly expanding in the continental, what is now the United States.

Ellen: Okay. So I didn't think Inca terns were going to play that integral of a role into our...

Christian: So not just Inca terns, it's other seabirds. But I thought this was an interesting connection.

Ellen: That is.

Christian: So, yeah. And a quote from the National Museum of American History, you know: "the Guano Islands Act stated that any guano islands and claimed or unoccupied by others could be claimed and mined, and the guano delivered to the United States at a low price for the benefit of its citizens. This act authorized our nation's earliest significant annexations of lands beyond the continent." So we know this went on later. Right? Cause we have even a state now that's not part of the continent, and other territories and such. So I'm not saying all of our non-continent territories were because of guano, but it just so happened to be the first ones we got were because of guano.

Ellen: That's hilarious.

Christian: Yes. The boom didn't last for long, cause I think with a combination of the industrial revolution and because of improvements in how synthesized fertilizer was coming along, it wasn't needed anymore. But also a problem with sending a bunch of ships and people to collect guano is that you scare away the birds.

Ellen: Oh, yeah that's true. And then they will poop their less.

Christian: Correct.

Ellen: Hmm. Interesting. That's a delicate balance that you have to navigate.

Christian: One that I'm sure the native peoples of South America were able to do, but of course with something like this at that magnitude, it's easy to just go in and wreck things.

Ellen: Well, yeah, I mean when you're pulling up to Guano Island with a big old boat.

Christian: Yeah, several boats. It's lots. The Inca tern.

Ellen: That took some tangents I wasn't expecting, but you know what? That's what we're all here for. So, nicely done babe. Thank you very much.

Christian: Any time.

Ellen: This feels like one of those situations where when you're in school and you have an essay that you're supposed to write, and you have a prompt for the essay and you kind of start off following the prompt, and then like about two paragraphs in, you start writing an essay about a completely different topic and you just stray so far from the topic that like, it's no longer the same essay.

Christian: Yeah, yeah.

Ellen: It's very good. I know so much more about the history of bird poop than I did 20 minutes ago.

Christian: I thought it was interesting.

Ellen: It is. You're right. Before we move on to my animal, I want to take a quick second to thank our patrons on Patreon. We've got Briana Feinberg, Krystina Sanders, the Jungle Gym Queen, Jacob Jones, and Ashley Tucker. Thanks y'all!

Christian: Thank you so much. Alright hun, what animal do you have for us this week?

Ellen: This week I'm talking about the European eel.

Christian: Real eel?

Ellen: This is a real life eel. This is a legit one because...

Christian: Ree-eel.

Ellen: You ever go fishing and you reel in a real eel?

Christian: Oh, jeez. All right, tell me about this eel.

Ellen: Okay, so first of all, scientific name is Anguilla anguilla, and I'm pretty sure that's how you pronounce it [ang-WILL-a]. I looked it up to make sure, because I looked at it and it's spelled like maybe it would be a Spanish word. And you know, we're from Florida where we have a lot of exposure to the Spanish language. And my assumption was that it would be pronounced "ahn-GEE-ya" cause that's how it looks like it's pronounced. But then I found out that it actually comes from the Latin word for eel, and that's not how they do Latin. So the best I could find was Anguilla anguilla, so I'm really doing my best here. So this species was not requested per se, but it was inspired by a tweet that I saw from one of my favorite Twitter accounts, the handle is @FunEelFacts and it's just really fun, and I enjoy seeing a lot of stuff about not only eels but also like knife fish and lung fish and stuff like that.

Christian: Something about those and Twitter. Right?

Ellen: There is a heavy eel presence on Twitter. There's a lot of eel appreciation on Twitter, yes. I've learned a lot about it. But so I'm getting my information on the European eel from the University of Michigan's Animal Diversity Web, love them, and also the European Eel Foundation, which can be found at europeaneel.com.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: So, the adult size for the European eel females are actually larger than the males, so females can be up to 65 centimeters or 2 feet long, and males up to 40 centimeters or 16 inches long, and that is at their kind of maximum size. Their location, you know, they're called the European eel, but um, they're not always there. So their location kind of depends on where they're at in their lifecycle. So stay tuned, we'll- TBA. We'll come back to that.

Christian: Alright.

Ellen: Their taxonomic family is called Anguillidae, this is the family of the freshwater eels. So way back in episode 2, you talked about the electric eel, which you revealed to us is not actually an eel.

Christian: Correct.

Ellen: It's just long and snake-shaped, so they called it an eel. And the electric eel is a knifefish, that you mentioned way back when. So this is a real life eel. This is an actual one. So true eels belong to the order Anguilliformes. Now they're their freshwater eels, but not 100% freshwater eels. This is really cool. So to get into my ratings, first rating up is effectiveness. And for effectiveness, I give them an 8 out of 10. So, since eels don't have pelvic fins to propel them through the water, you know their upper and lower fins are all fused together, right? To make this one sort of ribbon-shaped fin that goes all the way down the body. So eels swim by undulating their body in a wave shape and the wave sort of rolls down their body. So it's not only really neat to watch, it's a little bit hypnotic almost, but it also allows them to swim backwards.

Christian: Woah!

Ellen: Yeah. Not a lot of fish can swim backwards. There are other fish that are not eels that can do this, but not that many of them. But so eels are a little bit special for their ability to swim backwards.

Christian: Nice.

Ellen: That's pretty cool. So for me, the European eel's biggest effectiveness factor is its hardiness. So they can survive and breed in a wide range of temperatures, and they can also regulate the balance of fluids and salts in their body that allow them to live in salty, brackish and fresh water. So this is really important. This is called osmoregulation, and this brings me to the most impressive thing about the European eel: it's lifecycle is nothing short of Herculean. It is absolutely ridiculous. So what's kind of funny is that way back when, Aristotle kind of took a stab at guessing at the eel's lifecycle and his- Aristotle came to the conclusion, after what I'm sure was rigorous study, that the eel was spontaneously generated out of the mud.

Christian: What!

Ellen: Yeah. Just showed up. It just appeared! So close. Not quite though. So the eel larvae are actually already independent when they hatch, and they hatch in this place called the Sargasso sea. And this is a region of the Atlantic ocean, it's pretty close to North America, but it doesn't actually have any land boundaries. So it's a sea, but a sea that's contained completely within the Atlantic ocean.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: So the European eel is a little bit Pokemon-like in its development in that it goes through these very distinct changes in its physical form as it develops through life. So they're born as these tube-shaped transparent larvae, and then when they get a little bit older, they develop into what's called leptocephalus larvae. They're still see-through, but they're kind of like a leaf, where they're sort of vertically flat. You know what I mean? Like, like how the eel has that sort of ribbon shape, but it tapers to a point at the end, so it looks kind of like a leaf or maybe a long piece of seaweed. And in that state, they're still transparent so you can see all their bones and it's a little bit spooky. But so they stay in this stage for about a year, and in this stage they drift along ocean currents and the ocean currents carry them all the way over to like, Europe and Northern Africa.

Christian: Wow.

Ellen: And then once they're there, they metamorphose into glass eels. So this is what you'll hear them kind of referred to as most often, but it just refers to a specific stage in their development. Glass eels, where they're tube-shaped, they have that kind of like iconic eel shape, and they're still transparent at that point. So from here they enter into estuaries and freshwater systems, and then once they're in there, their pigmentation changes to a grayish brown color, and at this point they become what are called elvers. So, as elvers they migrate- they migrate upstream, actually into freshwater systems kind of throughout Europe. They can even travel across land for short distances. Yeah. It's a little- kind of gross, but oh well. Like they're, they're going for it. And they will live in fresh water for many, many years before maturing into their final form, which is called the silver eel where their like gray color changes to more shimmery silver. And in this form, they stop feeding completely and they rely on whatever energy they have already stored to carry them through this final phase of their life. And this is when the eel travels back down stream out of the freshwater systems it's been living in and growing in and it crosses the Atlantic ocean again and returns to the Sargasso sea.

Christian: Wow!

Ellen: Yes.

Christian: That's quite the journey.

Ellen: Yes. So it's come all the way over from like, close to- almost like, close to the Caribbean all the way over to Europe and then turned around and came back.

Christian: That's intense.

Ellen: It's crazy. And then it gets crazier when you find that they only breed once in their entire lifetime, laying one clutch of eggs. So being closely related to Japanese eels, Japanese eels lay between 2 and 10 million eggs at a time.

Christian: Wow.

Ellen: Yes. So nobody's actually seen the European eel lay its eggs, so nobody has a good number on how many it lays at a time. Apparently this area of the ocean is very, very difficult to monitor because there are like no structures in that area. There's no landmarks or anything. It's very difficult to keep track of anything in this area of the ocean. So nobody's actually seen them lay eggs, so nobody knows for sure how many they lay at a time. But we can guess that it's in the millions because that's how Japanese eels do it and they're closely related.

Christian: Wow.

Ellen: Yeah, so the female comes out there and she lays her millions of eggs and then she dies. That's it. End of life. She just lays the one clutch of eggs. And they do that thing where they will, the females just lay the eggs and then they die, and then the male comes along and fertilizes them. So they don't necessarily mate. Right? They just lay the eggs.

Christian: I think we see this with some species of fish, like salmon and that kind of thing.

Ellen: It's a common thing for fish. Yeah. This is how they do. So obviously the larvae have to be self-sufficient when they hatch because there's nobody there to take care of them or protect them or anything.

Christian: And this happens in that special part of the Atlantic?

Ellen: Yes.

Ellen: Okay.

Ellen: So like this all obviously very impressive, right? They've gotta be pretty tough to be able to withstand that kind of journey. I deducted a few points for the fact that they've pretty much bumped up their difficulty settings on life. Like they're like, playing on legendary mode for like no reason.

Christian: I'm gonna be a fish, but like, Nuzlocke challenge.

Ellen: They're traveling thousands and thousands of miles to reproduce, they immediately die once they reproduce. So they've only got just that one shot, and then the whole thing of just being done with eating, once they become adults, they're like, that's it. I don't need to eat anymore. Which makes me think of like moths, how a lot of moths will do this. Like the luna moth is one example I can think of where like, once it reaches its adult form, it's just done eating. It's like, sorry, I only have one goal now that because they don't have the parts to eat anymore.

Christian: I think that with the Luna moth they just lose their mouth entirely.

Ellen: Yeah. But so I just thought that- I just think that's just so extra. Why are y'all doing the most like that? Moving on to ingenuity, I give them a 5 out of 10 for ingenuity. So their migratory path is about 5,000 kilometers, or 3000 miles long. That's a lot. And the eel is only like a maximum of two feet long. So that is a lot of ground to cover for this little dude. So that made me think, how does it know where to go? How does it know how to get back to where it needs to go and like, how does it keep coming back to the same- not the same exact spot, but how does it keep coming back to the same area? So, according to a research article that I found titled "Glass eels have a magnetic compass linked to the tidal cycle," and this was in Science Advances in June of 2017, so what they found was that the eel orients itself in the water in alignment with magnetic fields both in the sea and also in laboratory settings.

Christian: Wow!

Ellen: Yeah. So that kind of shows that they can both detect magnetic fields and that that is what they're using to determine what direction to go. In. Another study that I found, a 2016 study showed that not all of the eels take the same path or travel at the same speeds. They kind of find their own way there with a lot of variety. So some of them go in just very, very different paths than others. And this ends up giving them very staggered arrivals at their breeding destination. So it's not like they all show up at once and breed and then that's the end of it until the next year, it's like they'll show up at different times because they've taken different paths and gone in different speeds.

Christian: Huh.

Ellen: Yeah. But if they don't show up within the right season and the water is not the right temperature, then they'll just stay there and they have to wait for the next breeding season.

Christian: Huh.

Ellen: Yeah. So it's kind of thought that this variation in their migratory paths gives them better chances of actually making it to the sea.

Christian: Yeah. Cause if there was like, I don't know, a couple of weeks every year where there's just millions of eels coming around, there would be animals waiting, right? To eat them.

Ellen: Sure. Like maybe it makes them a little bit harder to catch or it just like gives them a better chance of survival. But yeah, it's not like every single- it's not like you'll see like, butterflies or certain types of birds or something where they have a very, very specific and exact route that they'll take consistently. Eels are kind of going their own way. The eels are a little bit more independent than that. Another point that I gave it for ingenuity was that they burrow into the mud to hide during the day and they come out to feed at night. And they can also burrow in sand and hide under rocks to escape predators, which I think probably is why Aristotle thought that they were like, created in the mud, but he thought that this was like, a spontaneous generation thing and that they just are birthed into being by the mud. Like a mud golem or something that's just born of mud.

Christian: I was about to say, it kind of reminds me of a Lord of the Rings thing where they were talking about how drawers were born.

Ellen: Yeah, I so I guess that's what he thought was going on with eels, but not the case. Which it kind of makes sense that he would think that having never seen them, like breed and spawn and stuff cause they're doing it in the middle of the Atlantic ocean.

Christian: I guess?

Ellen: So it kind of makes sense cause he's never seen them hatch or anything because he would have only ever seen them in that like juvenile form. So I guess you can't fault him too much for coming up with wild guesses. But still, it's funny, I'm going to dunk on him anyway. So another thing that the European eel will do is they'll hibernate during the winter. So they go into an inactive state called torpor when temperatures start to drop and they'll actually burrow into the mud and they'll go into the state of torpor and they'll wait until- cause a lot of times during these colder seasons, like river beds will dry up and stuff, so they'll, they'll wait until the water comes back.

Christian: That's interesting.

Ellen: Yeah. It's a cool way for them to conserve energy until things warm back.

Christian: Is this eaten? Like by people?

Ellen: Yes, very much so. That's in my- that's in a later thing.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: So, uh, last category for the European eel is aesthetics. I give them a seven...? Seven. Seven out of 10. They have a cute, rounded, snake-like face. If you look at their face, it kind of looks like a Python, like a ball python's face a little bit to me. I think it's pretty cute. Um, and also the leaf shape of their leptocephalus stage is really, really cute. It's, it's just a really pleasant, like pointed leaf shape. I think it's adorable. But other than that, not a lot going on in the looks department. Right? Nothing's super special about them. They're very much like, kind of your standard-issue starter kit eel. It's just, it's an eel y'all. I dunno what else to tell ya. So to wrap up with some miscellaneous information, this was kind of why I wanted to talk about this eel. Their conservation status is critically endangered.

Christian: Really?

Ellen: Yes. They are doing very, very badly. Actually, not too long ago, their what's called their recruitment rate, which is the amount of baby eels that were being hatched, was as low as 1% of what it had been in the '80s.

Christian: Wow...

Ellen: Yes. So their numbers were just absolutely abysmal. They were in the garbage can. So some of the greatest threats to European eels, according to the IUCN, include barriers to migration, so structures like hydropower turbines and water pumping stations in Europe.

Christian: Yeah...

Ellen: Yeah. So this can cut off the eels from being able to travel freely to and from the ocean.

Christian: Oh...

Ellen: Yeah. So they could like not be able to get into the rivers and stuff that they normally need to get into because of these barriers. There's also, of course, degradation and loss of habitat and pollution causing metabolic disruption to the eels. You know, cause they're absorbing a lot of that into their body, including- this is wild, I'm not going to go too deep into it, but I just wanted to put it out there: illicit substances such as cocaine in the rivers that they, you know, live in. So... Sorry about the coked up meals. But...

Christian: Man.

Ellen: Yeah, other things- I have so many things. Another thing is a changing oceanic conditions influence the currents that have to carry the eel larvae in from the sea. Right? Like that's what they're using to get into these freshwater systems, and when the currents change, they're not getting to where they need to go so they can't develop. So that's just- and then finally, overfishing in places where European eels are caught to be eaten. Since the European eel has to travel over such huge distances and it has to be, you know, shifting between saltwater and freshwater and it's just, it's so demanding and its needs, they've never been successfully raised in captivity. So, if you're going to eat them, you have to catch them from the wild. So conservation efforts have been put in place trying to raise eel numbers, and one of those efforts was a ban on the exportation of the European eel and that was put in place by the EU in 2010. So it's now illegal to export European eels from the EU.

Christian: So I know you're not a fan of eating fish in general.

Ellen: Yeah, I don't eat seafood at all. So this is all equally gross to me.

Christian: But to me, I've had eel plenty of times, but it's always been in the same context, and that is sushi, or Japanese food in general.

Ellen: Sure.

Christian: Very tasty in my opinion. But I'm wondering what species is that normally?

Ellen: I don't know what like kind it- what is it, unagi? Is like the word that they use for eel that they put in sushi? But so, I thought this was interesting. Another conservation effort for the European eel has included trapping the juvenile eels and then transporting them where they need to go. So like, kind of helping them navigate around those barriers that are keeping them from migrating, like they'll go out and like, say there's eels that are trying to get like into a river but they can't get through because there's like, I don't know, a water station or something. They'll like, go trap the juvenile eels, put them in a bunch of coolers I guess, I dunno, coolers and tanks and stuff, and they'll actually transport them over land and take them to where they're trying to get and then set them free. Kinda like human bridging them. Which I thought was a neat idea that that was pretty cool.

Christian: Whatever works.

Ellen: Yeah. And also the activity of fisheries that catch wild eels has been severely limited. So now they say that you have to leave at least 60% of the wild eels in the wild in order to have enough to replenish the population.

Christian: Huh.

Ellen: Yeah. So my last little fun fact I want to include in here is a fun history fact that I learned from John Wyatt Greenlee's website HistoriaCartarum.org, and what I learned from this is that documentation from medieval England records taxes from territories being paid to royalty including massive numbers of eels. Say you were, you know, a landowner and there was royalty that you needed to pay taxes to, your taxes wouldn't necessarily be like an amount of gold or coins. It would maybe be like you know, 50 apples, 30 pounds of carrots, 300 eels. So like, eels used to be sort of used as a bit of currency and that was recorded in Europe all the way up until like, the Middle Ages.

Christian: Wow.

Ellen: Yeah, it fell out of fashion to eat eels in Europe at least. It kind of became less popular over time. Like, eels became less of a desirable food item, and then I feel like they kind of fell out of cultural relevance because people weren't eating them, so people weren't really thinking about them. You know? Like I feel like when I, even before I learned all of this stuff about the European eel, I felt like, you know, when you told me that the electric eel was actually a knife fish, I realized that I actually knew literally nothing about eels because that was the one I thought I knew anything about. And it ended up not being an eel. But so yeah, I was just really happy to get to learn a lot more about eels in general. And I thought they were really cool. And this one is really neat and I had no idea that it was so critically endangered, but it is. And so it was really interesting to learn about.

Christian: That's awesome. Thank you honey.

Ellen: No problem. Thank you. Oookay, that's all we have for this week, so thank you everybody that's joined us this week and in all previous weeks. We have seen like, a lot of growth recently and that's been really great. So I am really happy for all the new people that have been joining us. So thank you so much and thank you also for the kind words you've been leaving us in your reviews. That really makes my day and it just makes me want to keep making this show and that's really great. So you can connect with us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram, and if you have an animal species that you want to hear us talk about, you can submit those to us. Either get those to us on social media or email them to me. My email address is ellen@justthezooofus.com. A transcript of this episode and all others, as soon as I finish the last couple that I haven't done yet, those will be found at www.justthezooofus.com and finally thank you to Louie Zong for allowing us to use your song "Adventuring" off of your album Bee Sides.

Christian: Yeah. Thanks everyone.

Ellen: Thank you everybody.

Christian: Happy holidays, and have a happy new year.

Ellen: Yes. We'll see y'all in 2020. That is a wrap on 2019.

Christian: I was going to make it 2020 vision joke, but I decided not.

Ellen: Do you have to?

Christian: Nope. Bye everyone!

Ellen: Bye!

30: Blue Footed Booby & Dingo

Ellen: Hey friends, this is Ellen Weatherford.

Christian: And this is Christian Weatherford.

Ellen: And this is Just the Zoo of Us, your favorite animal review podcast.

Christian: Yes. Where we talk about animals that you suggest and give them a rating of... zero to 10. I don't know if we've done zeros yet.

Ellen: Not quite yet. We've got some ones.

Christian: I'm gonna say zero to 10, in three categories: effectiveness, ingenuity and aesthetics.

Ellen: We are not zoological experts. What we are experts in is...

Christian: Hugs!

Ellen: Licensed and certified.

Christian: Yup.

Ellen: The only announcement I have right now is that next week is our live show, so if you're listening to this in or near the Jacksonville area, come listen to us learn you about aminals. If you want to. That would be fun.

Christian: In the picturesque setting of Riverside, Jacksonville.

Ellen: Yeah, it's so it's called Cultivate and it's a really, really cool little space down in the Riverside area. It's very adorable and I'm really excited to be there and see all of your beautiful faces.

Christian: All right, so who's first this week?

Ellen: You are.

Christian: Meeeee?

Ellen: Yes, you. It's your turn.

Christian: This week, I bring you and our listeners a very good bird known as the blue-footed booby.

Ellen: Spectacular.

Christian: Yes. That's not its scientific name. Its scientific name is actually Sula nebouxii.

Ellen: Interesting.

Christian: That's how I choose to pronounce it.

Ellen: Sounds great.

Christian: This species was submitted to us by the Paudeville podcast, as well as Katie Johns.

Ellen: Thanks y'all.

Christian: Thank you so much.

Ellen: Thank you for subjecting me to this.

Christian: Here we go. I'm getting my information from National Geographic, found at nationalgeographic.com, as well as Animal Diversity Web, found at animaldiversity.org. This is a seafaring bird mostly. I'm going to describe what it looks like really quick.

Ellen: Please do.

Christian: So, as its name implies, they have blue feet, which are also webbed. They have brown feathers on their wings, white feathers on the breast. They have brown and white feathers on their head, back, and tail. Their face and bill is a grayish blue, and they have the round head when you look at them from pretty much any angle.

Ellen: The blue feet are like a very, very vibrant blue, too. It's unexpected. When you see the rest of the bird, the rest of the bird has kind of regular, kind of muted... Normal bird colors, and then you get to the feet and it pops off.

Christian: Yeah. And these are adults that had the blue feet, by the way. As juveniles, they do not have that coloration of feet.

Ellen: They look kind of like duck feet too, right?

Christian: Yeah, they're webbed. They're very good at pushing water. Let's talk about how big they are. So they are 32 to 34 inches long, or 81 to 86 centimeters. Their wingspan is almost five feet, or about one and a half meters, and they weigh 3.25 pounds, or one and a half kilograms. Let's talk about where you can find these guys. They are off the western coasts of central and South America, but half of all breeding are found on the Galapagos islands. So a lot of the times you'll hear about these in documentaries that are centered around the Galapagos islands. Taxonomic family is Sulidae. The other things in that family are birds called gannets, as well as other boobies. So there are several birds known as boobies, but they have different colored feet in features. I think there are six.

Ellen: Interesting. So, and they are really stuck on the name, huh?

Christian: Yep.

Ellen: It can't be changed?

Christian: Spoiler alert: There's a reason for the name.

Ellen: Oh!

Christian: It's coming.

Ellen: Okay.

Christian: So first category up, we're going to talk about effectiveness. How good do they do the things they do? These are physical adaptations. I'm giving the blue footed booby a 7 seven out of 10. So first of all, webbed feet. They're very, very good at swimming. And they can, they're very good at diving too into the water.

Ellen: Oh really? Like they go fully underwater?

Christian: Yep. So they can plunge into water from a height as high as 80 feet, or 24 meters. That's pretty high up there.

Ellen: How did they get that high up?

Christian: ...Flying?

Ellen: Oh yeah, they're... They're birds. I forgot.

Christian: I guess I didn't explicitly say that, but yes, this is a flighted bird.

Ellen: Okay. Thank you for explicitly stating that.

Christian: But I believe one could deduce that from the wingspan.

Ellen: That's true, that's true.

Christian: So yeah, they're very good at swimming and diving, but they are not great at getting around on land, which is good, because they're only on land when they're nesting at night.

Ellen: I'm imagining a funny waddle.

Christian: Yes, it is very funny. I will touch on that again later. Next category: ingenuity. They do smart things or interesting tactics, tool use, that sort of thing. Gonna give them another 7 out of 10. They will sometimes hunt cooperatively, but usually they're hunting on their own and this is where they're diving under water and catching small fish. Like sardines, that kind of fish.

Ellen: Sure.

Christian: Not unlike penguins except, you know... Buffed, what with flight and all.

Ellen: Well, I mean they live in a warmer climate, right? So they don't have the same needs that a penguin has.

Christian: That's true. I guess that's not fair to penguins.

Ellen: I know we should be- we should be nicer to penguins. Everyone always dunks on penguins for not being able to fly. But like, we talked about the emperor penguin and why they don't fly. Right? They have their reasons. Leave penguins alone! Be nice to penguins.

Christian: My next ingenuity point: my primary one, and this is has to do with their- with the males' mating display. So the males will show off their feet.

Ellen: Really?

Christian: By doing a high-strutting, high step.

Ellen: I'm imagining Rockettes.

Christian: ...What?

Ellen: The Rockettes, like the ladies that do the Can-Can at like, festivals and parades and stuff.

Christian: That's too elegant. Again, imagine a funky waddle. It's like a person trying to walk around with flippers on.

Ellen: Aw, that's pretty great actually. Okay. So the male booby is walking around strutting his stuff and it looks like someone just kind of flapping around in flippers, and the female booby sees this pitiful display and she's like, "Aw yeah, I need to get me some of that."

Christian: So, here's the thing, the bluer the feet, the more attractive.

Ellen: Definitely. Absolutely.

Christian: And here's why. So this is the primary reason why I put this under ingenuity. So it's thought that the foot color indicates being healthy and well fed.

Ellen: Really?

Christian: So that's because the blue coloration comes from their diet.

Ellen: It's reminding me a bit of how flamingos turned pink due to the krill that they eat.

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: Okay.

Christian: And I got this information from a very specific article, which I will now cite. That article is titled "Pigment-based skin colour in the blue-footed booby: an honest signal of current condition used by females to adjust reproductive investment."

Ellen: Adjust reproductive investment.

Christian: Yeah, that's, that's a scientific way of saying having a fondness for blue feet.

Ellen: I know anybody out there using online dating services is probably well familiar with adjusting their reproductive investments.

Christian: So yeah. The thought is, you know, the bluer the feet, the better an indicator that is of the male being healthy, being able to rear healthy young, that sort of thing. Last category, aesthetics. How pretty are they? Again, a 7 out of 10. So this is a 7 out of 10 across the board for me. For the blue footed booby...

Ellen: It's just a, it's just good. It's okay.

Christian: Yeah. Blue feet, obviously aesthetic, but also I find them sleek and a little goofy to look at them head on.

Ellen: Yes! Oh my gosh. There's nothing that makes me laugh harder than seeing a picture of a blue footed booby looking directly at the camera.

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: Because they look so nervous. Don't they? They look so anxious and caught off-guard.

Christian: It kinda reminds me of some of the Muppet characters. A little bit.

Ellen: What's the one that goes, "meep meep meep meep meep meep," who's that?

Christian: I do not know.

Ellen: It's that one!

Christian: Okay. So yeah, 7 out of 10.

Ellen: I feel like the blue foot is very unexpected. Like if you're starting at the top of the animal and you kind of work your way down, you're like, okay, I get it. Long skinny beak, long neck. Okay, brown and white bird. Oh no! You get to the feet and you're like, what happened?

Christian: I find them cute. So, some miscellaneous info. First up, the conservation status: they are of least concern.

Ellen: Oh, that's not what I expected. I don't know why, I guess I expected a seafaring bird to not be doing very well.

Christian: Apparently they're doing fine.

Ellen: Oh. Good on you, boobies.

Christian: Yes. Their average life span in the wild is 17 years. Their babies, earlier I mentioned that their feet are not blue, but also they look like little white floofs.

Ellen: Oh, little cloud bird!

Christian: Yeah, they're pretty cute.

Ellen: Just a little fluff ball.

Christian: And talking about babies, when the parents are feeding their young, so they do the very typical bird thing where they go out and get food, regurgitate it into the baby's mouths. Keep in mind these birds will have about two or three young in a clutch, I guess is what you would call it. So if food is scarce, what they'll do is they will decide to feed the larger of the chicks. As a way of, you know...

Ellen: Picking one.

Christian: Ensuring at least one survives.

Ellen: Readjusting their reproductive investment.

Christian: It's so stone cold.

Ellen: There are so many birds that we've talked about that do this though.

Christian: Yes. I guess it makes sense, I suppose.

Ellen: Birds do tend to spend a lot of their effort and energy caring for their young, right? So if you're going to be putting that much energy into it, you have to kind of allocate it appropriately to make sure that you're kind of getting the best results for your efforts. It's like we talked about the shoebill, that doesn't even bother with the second chick. Right?

Christian: That's true.

Ellen: They are just like, "Oh well, sucks for you."

Christian: Yeah. And also, they keep their eggs warm with their feet. So their feet have increased blood flow, so are warmer than the rest of their bodies.

Ellen: Really?

Christian: Yeah. So they use their feet to keep the eggs warm. I think a lot of birds have what's called a brood patch on their body to do this, but these birds do not.

Ellen: They have brood feet.

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: That's kind of cute. So I haven't seen this happen, but I am imagining a booby just standing on its eggs.

Christian: I don't think it's standing on them. I think it moves the eggs to be on top of its feet, like kind of like a penguin.

Ellen: Oh, that's pretty cute. That's adorable.

Christian: And now, my last and best piece of information: where the name comes from.

Ellen: Yes, please.

Christian: So boobies are thought to be named after the Spanish word for stupid.

Ellen: Oh no! No, no, no.

Christian: Which is "bobo."

Ellen: *sighs*

Christian: Yup. So some things are coming together, right?

Ellen: Yeah.

Christian: Per National Geographic, and I quote...

Ellen: Come on.

Christian: "European colonists may have characterized these clumsy and unwary birds when they saw them on land, their least graceful environment." Second quote, per Animal Diversity Web...

Ellen: Excellent.

Christian: "Its lack of fear and clumsiness on land has made this species vulnerable to man."

Ellen: Its both lack of fear and clumsiness. So I mean, if you're going to be a complete disaster walking around on land, you gotta be confident. Right? You gotta just go for it. Just own that walk.

Christian: Yup. So that's where the name comes from, or is thought to have come from.

Ellen: Delightful.

Christian: I thought it was funny cause I have heard the, the term "bobo" before.

Ellen: At least in the area where we live, people use "bobo" to describe something that is subpar, something that is not great.

Christian: But like just imagine for a moment you're a, you're a Spanish conquistador, you've arrived in Mexico and after having a busy day of doing awful, awful things, you go to the Pacific coast to find these birds and you're just like, "Man, these birds, they stupid."

Ellen: You see them and you're like, "This bird? Nuh-uh, that's bobo. That is a bobo bird." I would imagine that if I was an ancient Spaniard, having just had a long day of conquistadoring, I would probably be delighted to come across a bird just trying its best to get from point A to point B and just flapping its big old feet around. I'd probably be like, now that's great.

Christian: Flap flap honk honk!

Ellen: I am a bird and I'm trying!

Christian: So, that is the blue footed boobie.

Ellen: Excellent. You have really strengthened my connection to this bird. Thank you. Um, how long did you spend looking at pictures of boobies on the internet?

Christian: A good four-ish hours.

Ellen: Great.

Christian: And in this corner...

Ellen: Please don't say how much I weigh.

Christian: I was trying to think of what your animal weighs. I don't know.

Ellen: Weighing in at... An average of about 30 pounds.

Christian: The feather feather feather weight.

Ellen: But it ain't got no feathers. It's a Dingo!

Christian: Yay!

Ellen: Scientific name... Is... In a little bit of a gray area! It's a little bit controversial what their scientific name is.

Christian: Interesting.

Ellen: They go by either Canis dingo or Canis lupus dingo or Canis familiaris dingo.

Christian: So what has caused this drama in the scientific taxonomic arena?

Ellen: It is off the chain. There's so much, but there's reason for the drama.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: It's legit. It's for real. It has real world implications. So this is a situation where taxonomy is very complicated and very heated, but for good, legit reasons. First of all, the species was submitted via Instagram by the Tails Waggin Camp, which is the dog boarding camp where we send Puppy when we go out of town. Yeah. So I'm getting my information on the dingo from the Australian Museum as well as the Australian Dingo Foundation. If you have never seen a dingo, it's a dog... And that's it. It's just a dog. It's just a dog. It's about two feet tall, or 62 centimeters at the shoulder. And like I said earlier, about 30 pounds. It's like a medium-sized dog. Medium, maybe a little bit on the larger size typically, but it's a tall dog.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: So they are found in Australia. Now here's the thing, the earliest evidence of dingoes in Australia dates back to 3,500 years ago.

Christian: So they did not come with the Europeans.

Ellen: No, definitely didn't come with Europeans, but they also weren't always there.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: This is a relatively recent addition to Australia. So it's believed that they were introduced to the continent prior to that evidence. It was the only hard evidence that could be found and dated back to 3,500 years ago.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: They were probably introduced to Australia around 5,000 years ago. So in the grand scheme of things, that's very recent. Right? But numbers on that vary a lot. Like, I found so many different sources that said so many different things on how long dingoes have been in Australia. So some of them said 5,000, some of them said 10,000 or 12,000, so just something around that amount of time.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: They've been there for a long time, but not as long as native species. So it's generally believed that the dingoes were brought onto the continent by people from Southeastern Asia. Some genetic evidence suggests that they were most likely hunter-gatherers from Sulawesi in Indonesia.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: They believe that because the Dingo doesn't have the ability to digest grains, which suggests that it was not domesticated by people who were using agriculture. To, you know, so like if a dog had been domesticated by people that were harvesting grains or rice or something like that, they probably would be feeding those greens and rice to the dogs, and the dogs would have developed the ability to digest those things over time.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: So you see this in more recent domesticated dog breeds, you see the ability to digest grains but dingoes can't at all. Yeah. So that suggests that the people that they accompanied weren't harvesting grains.

Christian: Interesting.

Ellen: Yeah. So that's why they think they were hunter gatherers. The dingoes also had a very, very narrow origin suggesting that it took very, very few dingoes to establish the population. So they think that only like, a couple of dingoes came over.

Christian: Wow.

Ellen: They said it could have been as few as one breeding pair. So their taxonomic genus is Canis. This is the same genus as dogs, wolves and coyotes. Dingoes have been shown by genetic studies to be more closely related to modern domesticated dogs than to gray wolves.

Christian: Make sense.

Ellen: Yeah. So you can see the strong similarity with domestic dogs, particularly in shiba inus and akitas. They look like, exactly the same. Right? Except shiba inus are like, kind of cuter. They're like little tiny dingoes with little curly hair- little curly tails and, but it looks a lot like a dingo. Right? You can definitely see the similarity there.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: So they likely share a common ancestor from Southern China. So it's thought that like some of those Japanese breeds of dogs share an ancestor with dingoes.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: There's still a lot of ongoing debate surrounding whether dingoes are actually their own species or they're just a breed of dog. This has implications when you get regulating, like protecting them or not protecting them as a species, whether they count as a species or whether they're just a breed of like, feral dog essentially.

Christian: Gotcha.

Ellen: Now they are most closely related to the New Guinea singing dog. So one was likely the origin of the other, because they're so closely related, and there actually used to be a land bridge connecting Australia and New Guinea.

Christian: Oh.

Ellen: So around the same time that the dingoes and the New Guinea singing dogs appeared in those areas, there was a land bridge between the two, but it's not really clear which one came first.

Christian: Quick question.

Ellen: What?

Christian: The new Guinea singing dog.

Ellen: Yes. It's very cute.

Christian: Why is it known as this?

Ellen: Because it howls in a really cute way, and it has a very melodic howl.

Christian: Is this a common breed?

Ellen: It's very rare.

Christian: Were you aware of it prior to doing this research?

Ellen: Yeah, I think I showed you videos of them before.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: They have a really pleasant howl. It's really nice.

Christian: I'll have to look them up.

Ellen: They're very, very rare though. But it's not really clear whether these dogs showed up in Australia first or New Guinea first. So I'm going to get into my ratings. I use the same system as Christian. I'm going to start with effectiveness. Our physical adaptations, I'm giving the Dingo an 8 out of 10.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: So first of all I'm going to talk about their fur. Their fur gives them a pretty decent amount of camouflage. So the fur is typically like a golden yellow or a tan color that blends in with the colors of a desert, right? It's going to blend in with a lot of like, the sand and dead plants and stuff like that. But, since they're found in all these different areas of Australia, Australia has a lot of different biomes. Right? So there could be some areas with desert, some areas with forests, some with like, wetlands, like there's just a lot of diversity there. So there are actually different types of dingoes with coats that are more adapted to the area where they live.

Christian: Neat!

Ellen: Yeah. So there's three types of dingoes. There's the desert, the alpine and the northern dingo. So in more forested areas, dingoes actually tend to have darker fur and they can be black. And what's really cute is that the dingoes that are black have white markings on them, looks exactly like a shiba inu. You know like a black and tan shiba inu? It looks exactly like that.

Christian: Neat.

Ellen: Yeah. So, differences between the dingo and the dog. Dingoes have longer teeth than modern domesticated dogs. They're also built for long distance running. So they have a really, really slender body. They have these long, super muscular legs, so they're really good at running and they're very fast. So it's good for covering long distances in like, you know, the outback and stuff where they have to- they have very large territories, so they have to cover really long distances and they're really built for that. They're definitely runners. That brings us to ingenuity. I give the dingo a 9 out of 10 for ingenuity.

Christian: Wow.

Ellen: So they will often hunt in packs. They communicate with each other with howls and with other vocalizations, like growling. They're working together and communicating with each other to take down prey that could be bigger than them.

Christian: Right.

Ellen: There have actually been a few studies testing dingoes on their intelligence.

Christian: Oh?

Ellen: The first study that I wanted to take a look at was their ability to take social cues from humans. So, like I mentioned earlier, they came to Australia with humans. It doesn't necessarily mean that they were completely domesticated, just that they hung around with humans a lot. So they at least spent, you know, a good chunk of their development around humans, but then returned to the wild. So it's interesting. They're kind of right in that midway point between a dog and a wild, like wolf or something.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: So, there was a test where they tried to see how well dingoes could comprehend human gestures. So these are things like looking at a target, pointing at a target to see if the dingo would pick the correct one. These were like, containers with food hidden inside. So they had already tested domesticated dogs and wolves using the same methods. So they just kind of applied the same test to dingoes to see how they fared. Pure dingoes, when tested for comprehension of these gestures, scored better than wolves, but not as well as domesticated dogs.

Christian: Expected.

Ellen: That makes sense, right? They're a little better at understanding people than wolves, but not quite as good as a pure dog. So another interesting thing about dingoes in relation to humans is that dingoes also initiate eye contact with humans more often than wolves. Wolves typically would not make eye contact with the human... Like, super willingly, but the dingoes maintained their eye contact for shorter durations than dogs.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: It's just another example of them being like, kind of in that midway point between being, you know, completely wild and a little bit more domesticated.

Christian: Right.

Ellen: Now there was another test of their intelligence called the detour task. This is a test of their problem solving abilities in which a food reward is placed behind a transparent barrier, in this case, it was a chain link fence, that the subject has to navigate around in order to access the food roared. And in this case for this test, it was shaped like a V with the food in the corner and the dingo on the other side where in order to get to the food, which the dingo could see and smell, the dingo would have to go all the way around one of the sides. And it would have to stay focused on the food long enough to go all the way around the fence and then come back to where it knew the food was.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: This test was actually kind of the reverse of the earlier test, where domesticated dogs perform pretty poorly on this test. They do a bad job, they tend to get more frustrated by having to problem solve independently without relying on, you know, interpreting cues from a human. They will tend to like, maybe start trying to dig at the barrier or they'll just bark at it or something, like, they- domesticated dogs tend to do very poorly at this task, but wolves are like 100%. Wolves ace this, no problem. And dingoes did well at this.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: Yeah. So dingoes seem to have kind of a good mix between being able to take social cues and also being able to critically think on their own.

Christian: Interesting.

Ellen: Yeah. So it's, it's kinda cool because it gives them the best of both worlds intellectually. Right? So here's another thing that they can do: spontaneous tool use.

Christian: Woah!

Ellen: Yeah. So captive dingoes have been observed manipulating objects in their enclosures, such as moving a table to access different heights. Yeah. So like, pushing around like a table or, or some sort of structure in their enclosure to get to a higher area that they couldn't get to before.

Christian: Interesting.

Ellen: Yeah. And they have even been recorded opening gates.

Christian: That's... not great.

Ellen: Like learning how to open gates. It's not ideal. It's not what you want your dingo to start doing, but at least it means it's pretty clever. This is a pretty smart little guy. Another thing that I thought was pretty clever of them is that both parents participate in rearing their pups. Not to, you know, ascribe too many human values to animal behavior, it's just, I have a soft spot for some egalitarian parenting roles. So they do a pretty good job, you know, raising their puppies. So I wanted to kind of highlight the intelligence of the dingo by contrasting it against that of Canis familiaris. In particular, the beagle that is at my feet currently. Her name is Puppy, and I gave the dingo a 9 out of 10 for ingenuity, I give my beagle a 2 out of 10 for ingenuity. She is bad at interpreting social cues. She cannot detour. She frequently gets her leash stuck on poles and cannot figure out that she has to walk backwards to get it unstuck. So if we are taking her for a walk and her leash gets wrapped around a pole, she just cries until we fix it for her.

Christian: I guess I'll just die.

Ellen: Guess I'll die here. Guess this is where I live now. And as far as spontaneous tool use in our dog, there has been one isolated freak incident of sophisticated tool use.

Christian: Yeah...

Ellen: That one time we had a baby gate at the bottom of our stairs and we were leaving her downstairs by herself, unsupervised, and we came home one day and the baby gate, which was mounted to the wall with these tension bolts that you had to twist in order to push them against the walls... The gate had been removed from the wall. And we were like, huh, that's weird. So we just put it back and thought nothing of it, and then the next day the exact same thing happened again. And we were like, how is this gate coming apart from the wall every day now? So we put the gate back on the wall, and then left puppy downstairs and went upstairs and watched, and we saw her go up to the gate and use her paw to twist the bolt that had the gate mounted to the stairs. And I tell you what, that was probably the most insane thing I've ever seen because this dog is dumb as a brick. This is not a bright dog. This is the dumbest dog I've ever met in my whole life. And she had figured out the mechanics holding the baby gate in place and how to dismantle them. So that was just, I think that was like... An outlier, right?

Christian: It was a freak accident. Because she'll do that, right? Where she'll paw at the bottom of something she's trying to get in, and then it just so happens that that motion was exactly what she needed to do to unscrew that bolt.

Ellen: I know, it was just the most bizarre thing that this very dumb dog was able to figure out such a high level task. It's crazy. So yeah, overall, I mean the dingo has got this one in the bag. I think a dingo is way smarter than our dog.

Christian: Yeah, that's what I was going to ask, did they do the same test they did all the, like the domesticated dogs where they did a list- like, a ranking of dog intelligence? I wonder where the dingo would fall in there.

Ellen: I mean it really varies depending on the task that you're trying to judge them on. Right?

Christian: True.

Ellen: They didn't necessarily outperform either dogs or wolves in any of the tasks, but they had consistently higher.... Right? Like whereas one task the wolf would be terrible at but the dog would be good at, the other one the dog's terrible at but the wolf's good at, the dingo's like, consistently pretty good at all of them. They're not necessarily the best at any of them.

Christian: The Jack of all trades.

Ellen: Yeah. So this is a clever, clever dog I think. So finally this brings me to aesthetics for the dingo. I give them a 9 out of 10. This is a good boy. It's a good boy. They're just, they're really pretty. They're cute. They have these long, like slender legs and pointy ears and they have kind of a bushy tail. They have short fur all over their body, but their tail is bushier than you might expect it to be. Yeah. I don't know. It's just cute dog. That's all I got. What more do you need? What more do you want from me? It's a cute dog! Leave me alone!

Christian: Dang...

Ellen: So miscellaneous information for the dingo, their conservation status is... Vulnerable...? This one's kinda tough to nail down because, like I said earlier, there's still some debate over whether they count as their own species. So it's kind of hard to give them an independent conservation status because nobody's really- nobody has come to a complete consensus and complete agreement on whether they count as their own species. So, breeding and hybridization with domestic dogs has actually eroded a lot of the genetic consistency of the dingo. It's estimated that about a third of the wild dingoes in Australia are actually hybrids with dogs. So since dingoes are Australia's largest mammalian predator, and they are opportunistic hunters who will pretty much eat anything, they are seen as pests by a lot of people in Australia. So there have actually been organized efforts to reduce dingo populations, especially in agricultural areas that are trying to protect their livestock because dingoes will hunt anything basically. And they're very, and they're quite good at it, so they're going to get what they want. The Australian Dingo Foundation is a nonprofit that operates a dingo sanctuary and participates in research and conservation of the dingo. So those studies that I mentioned earlier testing their intelligence, those were performed on dingoes kept in the dingo sanctuary by the Australian Dingo Foundation.

Christian: Makes sense.

Ellen: Yeah. So they do a lot of the research in learning more about dingoes, which is really cool. So laws protecting dingoes and dingo hybrids vary across regions in Australia. Some places protect them and consider them an endangered species, some consider them pests and an invasive pest. And so that's, it's just like you're going to get a wide range of policies on dingoes in different areas. So that's why the taxonomy of the dingo matters. So if it is its own species, it can then be classified as endangered. However, if it is just seen as a dog, then it has a lot less footing for legal protection.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: Cause then it's just like, it's a feral dog, right? There's dogs everywhere, you don't need to worry about it. It's just a dog. So that's kinda why taxonomy matters. In this case. It's like whether you are going to be able to protect the species or not.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: I know that when I was a kid, I had a book that was really important to me that was a dog breed encyclopedia. I think we just got rid of it, like in this move to our new house. We got rid of the book, but it was really important to me and the dingo was in that book as a dog breed.

Christian: Aw.

Ellen: So I want to wrap up with this one last little tidbit that I really love. This is a story. In August of 2019, a lone puppy fell from the sky into a residential backyard in Wandiligong, Australia. The puppy had marks on its back that suggested it had been picked up and carried off by an eagle. So they think that's how it got to where it was all by itself, with nothing, no family nearby or anything. So the family that lived there took the puppy to a vet where the vets discovered that the puppy was a purebred alpine dingo.

Christian: Wow.

Ellen: The rarest type of dingo, they're actually endangered. So he now lives at the Australian Dingo Foundation's Dingo Discovery Sanctuary. His name is Wandi, after Wandiligong where he was found, and you can follow him on Instagram at wandi_dingo.

Christian: Woah!

Ellen: That's W-A-N-D-I, underscore, D-I-N-G-O. [to the tune of "Bingo Was His Name-O"] D-I-N-G-O, D-I-N-G-O...

Christian: And Dingo was his name-o.

Ellen: Yup!

Christian: Ah. So, should I keep a dingo as a pet?

Ellen: No.

Christian: Okay!

Ellen: No.

Christian: But you just said-

Ellen: No, no, no, no. Don't keep wild animals as pets. Don't do it.

Christian: That's okay. They're probably poor pets anyway.

Ellen: They're bad pets. They- no. Don't keep dingoes as pets.

Christian: I was joking for, for our listeners' sake. Okay.

Ellen: Well no, cause I think that's a good thing to say. I think that's a good thing to include in the show for people that might be listening, and might be hearing me talk about, oh, it's a really cute dog that is also pretty clever. They might be thinking, "oh, where do I get a dingo and keep it in my house?" This is me telling you: don't. You don't. You just don't do that. So that's the dingo.

Christian: Thanks honey. It was very good, and not traumatic at all.

Ellen: Well, thank you to everybody who has spent this time with us this week. We really appreciate everybody that's been listening and we haven't asked this in a while, but if you could please head over to your favorite podcatcher and drop us a good review. I hope we've earned it.

Christian: Or any review, whatever you think we deserve.

Ellen: If you have a bad review, please don't leave that.

Christian: I'll read it.

Ellen: Please keep, please keep that one to yourself. Actually, if you have a bad review and you have negative feedback, you can send it directly to Christian.

Christian: Yeah!

Ellen: Don't send it to me. I'll cry.

Christian: I definitely won't read it on a Mean Tweets type thing.

Ellen: I will cry. I can't take it. I promise. Christian can though.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: So yeah, thanks everybody who's been checking us out. That's really cool of you. You can come hang out with us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. Just search the name of the show. You'll find us. Come join our Facebook group. It's pretty great. We love it a lot. If you want to hear us talk about a particular animal species, send those to us either on social media or via email. My email address is ellen@justthezooofus.com. A transcript of this episode will be made available at justthezooofus.com.

Christian: Very good.

Ellen: Yeah, and last mention, thank you to Louie Zong for allowing us to use the song "Adventuring" off of your album Bee Sides.

Christian: Always a pleasure to listen to.

Ellen: Yes, as I hope so is our podcast.

Christian: Oh!

Ellen: I think it is. I think you have a very lovely voice and I like to hear it.

Christian: Nuh-uh...

Ellen: It's a good thing I like to hear it cause I have to listen to it three separate times!

Christian: Yeah... Okay.

Ellen: Anyway, byeee!

Christian: Bye everyone.

29: Delacour's Langur & Komodo Dragon

Ellen: Hi there! This is Ellen Weatherford.

Christian: And Christian Weatherford.

Ellen: And this is Just the Zoo of Us, your favorite animal review podcast where we take your favorite animals and we review them and rate them out of 10 in the categories of effectiveness, ingenuity and aesthetics.

Christian: We are not zoological experts. We do a lot of research and we try our best to make sure we're presenting information from trustworthy and good resources.

Ellen: Before we get into it today, I just want to real quick say that if you are listening to us in Jacksonville, Florida and you want to come see us, we are having a live show at Cultivate on Saturday, November 30th so come hang out with us in the real world.

Christian: Yeah, and not just Jacksonville listeners, the general Northeast Florida folks or you know, if you want to make that trip, do it.

Ellen: If you're listening to this in Canada, Europe...

Christian: I guarantee it'll be warmer.

Ellen: That's absolutely true. It is a little bit chilly today. Today it was 50 degrees this morning.

Christian: Fahrenheit.

Ellen: That's true. Yeah, Fahrenheit. So it was a little chilly, which I know probably to people that might be listening up north in Canada or perhaps the UK, it might sound pretty not cool of us to complain about it being 50 degrees, but we're bundled up in sweaters and the dog is sleeping on a heating pad right now.

Christian: Had to bust out the long sleeve t-shirts.

Ellen: We did! I'm wearing long sleeves today for the first time in a while. So, it's getting a little chilly here, but it's still nicer than it is up north, so if you're feeling a little snowbirdy, you can come down to Jacksonville and hang out with us.

Christian: Do it. So, who's up first?

Ellen: Me, it's my turn.

Christian: What do you got for us?

Ellen: This week I'm talking about Delacour's langur. Before I get any further into this, I want to know what you think a langur is.

Christian: Is it a mammal?

Ellen: Yes.

Christian: Okay. Starting off strong. Is it a monkey?

Ellen: Yes it is. It's a monkey.

Christian: Okay, here we go. Here we go.

Ellen: Where do you think they live?

Christian: What was the first word? Delacour?

Ellen: Delacour's langur.

Christian: Africa.

Ellen: Nope.

Christian: Dang it!

Ellen: Sorry.

Christian: Asia?

Ellen: Yes. Yeah, so the scientific name of this species is Trachypithecus delacouri.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: This species was submitted by our friend Sarah, who is on Twitter with the Twitter handle @LangurLover. So Sarah loves langurs and requested that we talk about langurs.

Christian: Okay!

Ellen: Yeah. Which I honestly had never even heard of a langur before, so...

Christian: Me neither. I just got lucky on a couple of those guesses.

Ellen: You did. You did really good. Just right off the bat, I'm going to say right at the top, this is one of the rarest species of monkeys in the world. They're one of the most endangered species of primates in the entire world. There are very, very few of them. I'm only saying that to preface the fact that it was a little bit challenging to find very much information on them. So the information that I'm getting for my segment I got from a couple of papers. So the first one was by Lee E. Harding, a profile on the species published in the scientific journal Mammalian Species in 2011, and my other source is a dissertation titled the "The foraging ecology of the Delacour's langur in Van Long Nature Reserve, Vietnam" by Catherine Workman at Duke University's Department of Evolutionary Anthropology.

Christian: Interesting.

Ellen: So two pretty good sources that I was able to find for some good information on this langur. So, to introduce you to my new friend, just some basic details. Their adult size is about 2 feet, or 60 centimeters long. Their tail is about 3 feet or 90 centimeters long. So the tail is longer than the body.

Christian: Yeah, they're like three-fifths tail.

Ellen: They're mostly tail. So the tail is huge. It's this big, bushy tail. The males are a little bit bigger than the females and they are found in Vietnam, but very specifically, their biggest viable population is found in Van Long Nature Reserve, and they live in limestone karst forest. This was a new word for me to learn. Karst.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: This is an area with a landscape that's formed by eroded limestone.

Christian: Oh, interesting.

Ellen: Yeah. So the limestone erosion forms structures that could be caves, they could be towers, they can be cliffs. Sometimes there's even like underwater river structures.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: But you see this kind of imagery a lot when you see especially videos of the landscape in Southeastern Asia, right? You think of those like big jutting, limestone towers that you'll see towering over forests and stuff.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: This is what I'm talking about. Limestone karsts.

Christian: Okay. Interesting.

Ellen: I had heard of these areas, but I didn't know that there was a word specifically for that. So that's where they live. Now, the taxonomic family for this species is called Cercopithicidae. This family is the Old World monkeys.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: So first, I'm going to talk about the difference between apes and monkeys. Generally speaking, you can tell an ape from a monkey by the tail and whether they have one or not. Generally speaking, if they don't have a tail, they're probably an ape, unless they're a Barbary macaque, which is a monkey, but it doesn't have a tail.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: But apes are also much larger than monkeys. So when you're thinking of apes, you're thinking of chimpanzees, gorillas, orangutans. They're just much chunkier. They're a little bit more substantial. And then monkeys tend to be a little bit more slender. They're a little bit more made for jumping around in the trees, and they have a tail. Within the monkeys, there are two different groups of monkeys. There's the Old World monkeys, or the catarrhines, and then there's the New World monkeys, or the platyrrhines. And those names have to do with the shapes of their nose. But the common names of Old World and New World refer to their locations. So Old World monkeys are found in Africa and Asia, and then New World monkeys are found in South America. Are you keeping up so far?

Christian: Yeah. What I was thinking, what about the ones in North America? Probably also New World?

Ellen: What ones in North America?

Christian: There are monkeys in North America. Right?

Ellen: They came from South America.

Christian: Oh, they're not...

Ellen: They're not native to here.

Christian: Oh man. Well, I mean until about less than a year ago, I didn't know there were monkeys in North America.

Ellen: Right, right. We were in Fort Lauderdale a few months ago and we saw some monkeys just running around in Fort Lauderdale and they were like, jumping on cars and stuff.

Christian: But you know what? I should retract. It was actually long ago when we saw monkeys in Mexico.

Ellen: Yeah, I mean that's still Central America, you know?

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: Okay. I guess I should say Central and South America is where you'll find monkeys.

Christian: Okay, cool.

Ellen: So one of the big differences between Old World monkeys and New World monkeys is that New World monkeys typically are the ones with prehensile tails. Old World monkeys have the long tail, but it's more for balance. They can't grip things with it. So I'm going to get into my ratings for this animal. I'm going to start with effectiveness, and if this is your first time joining us, we define effectiveness as physical adaptations that an animal has that make it a little bit better than others at doing what it's trying to do or just let it do a good job. These are physical advantages. It has. I'm going to give the Delacour's langur a 7 out of 10. They have that long bushy tail that I mentioned, but like I said, it is not prehensile. It's made for balance, so they will hold it in different ways that let them navigate narrow passages a little bit easier. So they actually spend most of their time on rocks and cliffs, more so than in trees. They spend most of their time hanging out on the rocks. They walk and run more than twice as often as they climb. So they use that big thick tail to balance and give it an advantage not only in the trees but on the jagged karst surfaces.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: It's pretty cool. So they've kind of translated that skill of running around in the trees over to running around on cliffs. What's interesting about that is they aren't actually evolved to be adapted to these limestone karsts. They weren't originally meant to be there.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: So this is implied by two different factors. This information is coming from that dissertation that I mentioned. So the first factor is diet. So they're folivores. They eat mostly leaves, but some other little plants, like fruits and seeds, stuff like that. But like most of what they eat is leaves. The plants that they eat the leaves from are not endemic to limestone karst habitats. So they probably didn't evolve in those habitats because if they did, their diet would probably be more specialized to those plants.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: That implies that their habitation of these areas is a little bit more recent. The second factor is something that I had never heard of, but I had a really good time learning about it. It's called their intermembral index. This is a ratio that describes the proportional lengths of an animal's limbs to each other, specifically their forelimbs to their hind limbs. This is converted into a percentage. So to give you an example, a human, think about the way that a human is shaped. Our legs are much longer than our arms, because we get around with our legs, we use our arms for other stuff, but our primary locomotion is our legs. So having much larger legs than arms, we have an entire memberal index of around 70%. however, a chimpanzee who spends more time swinging and hanging in trees than a human has much bigger arms, and their arms are actually a little bit longer than their legs.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: So that gives them an intermembral index of closer to 110%.

Christian: Yeah, yeah.

Ellen: So this makes sense so far.

Christian: Yeah. So, anything over 100%implies arms longer than legs.

Christian: Yes. For Delacour's langur, their intermembral index is around 76%, which is what you would expect of a primate who does a lot of leaping and jumping, like across tree limbs. But based on their jagged rocky habitats, you would probably expect them to have longer forearms to give them more stability as they're walking across the cliffs and make them better at like, climbing and getting around on the rocks. You wouldn't expect their body to be shaped like that for where they live, suggesting that where they live is not where they were supposed to live. At least they haven't lived there for long enough to physically adapt to it. This all suggests that they're living in these karsts out of necessity rather than preference or adaptation. This is likely resulting in them being forced into these areas by deforestation and agricultural conversion. So the forests that they should be living in are being repurposed, and it's not an option for them anymore. So they're being forced into these areas.

Christian: Right, okay. Because it's not like the limestone just popped up one day, right?

Ellen: The limestone's been there forever, but they haven't lived there forever. They're kind of just trying to do their best with what they've got.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: So that's why I gave them a 7 out of 10, is that they're not perfectly adapted to where they live, but they're flexible enough that they can still live in a place that they're not necessarily made for.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: That ties into the next category for their ratings, ingenuity. We define ingenuity as behavioral adaptations that give an animal kind of an advantage over others or that give it a better time of solving the problems it needs to solve everyday. Give them an 8out of 10.

Christian: Alright.

Ellen: Monkeys tend to be pretty clever. So these are Old World monkeys. Old World monkeys have been shown to have comparable intelligence to apes in terms of spatial understanding, tool use and social intelligence. So this suggests that they're probably similarly intellectually competent. Even though I couldn't find very much evidence to suggest tool use for this specific species, although they don't eat anything that would necessarily require the use of tools. It's just leaves, right? You don't need anything to get a leaf. It would make more sense that they ate things like insects or like fruit that was hard to get at, that would require them to use something to get to.

Christian: Yeah. Cause like for me the poster child of animals using tools would be like an ape using a twig to get termites out of a mound.

Ellen: Right. And they don't do that.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: So it's not something that they need to do. I'm sure if they needed to, they could. By nature of being a monkey, which tend to be pretty smart. So I did kind of give them a bump because even though they're not physically adapted to them, they use the rocks and ledges of the karst environment to their advantage. So they're not only chilling out on the rocks, they're taking shelter from the heat and the sun in the caves. So there's lots of caves in these areas and they'll chill out inside of there, which is not a thing that monkeys typically do. They don't usually go into caves, but they'll go in there to take shelter from the weather. They will also sun on the rocks to warm up during the winter. So when it starts to get chilly, they will actually lay out on the rocks because the rocks will heat up a lot quicker than the surrounding area and they'll lay out to sun their bodies.

Christian: Yeah. I was just realizing, you know, Vietnam has some very intense rainy seasons.

Ellen: Yeah. And also some intense heat too. It gets really hot. Yeah. They kind of use the rocks to their advantage even though they're not necessarily physically evolved to live there. So another thing that they do is that when they're scaling the rocks, they follow behind each other in single file. So this makes it a lot safer for them to travel in groups, because they do group up rather than each monkey individually finding its own way up the cliff. They travel as a group in single file.

Christian: Yeah. So they'll be like, "Oh, the monkey in front of me found a safe handhold. I'll use that one."

Ellen: Yeah. So it just makes it a little bit easier for them to travel together. Something that I really enjoyed that I thought was really kind of adorable, the dissertation that I mentioned earlier by Workman noted young langurs jumping off of the rocks into trees below and then climbing back up and doing it again.

Christian: Parkour!

Ellen: It's like, it was compared in the paper to like how a human would jump off of a diving board into the water. Like they would jump off of the rock, land in the trees, climb up the rock and jump off again. So they weren't like chasing anything or like, they weren't doing anything, they were just having fun. I think that suggests a level of intelligence, right? That they're doing things for enjoyment.

Christian: Yeah, yeah. I mean it seems a little bit a little dangerous, but hey.

Ellen: I mean, it's thrill seeking, baby. They're adrenaline junkies. They don't care. To talk a little bit about what their social structure looks like, they usually live in groups of harems, which is one male and multiple females, but there are some variations on the structure. Sometimes there'll be groups of multiple males or groups with no males. You know, it can, it can be a little bit different. The males serve as lookouts for the group, sitting high up on the rocks and keeping an eye out for predators or other langurs. They don't typically mesh with other groups. When two groups of langurs cross paths, the males will react defensively. They will first yell at each other. So you got to talk a little trash before you really get into it. So they'll yell at each other first for a little while. Usually one will back down, but if not, they will escalate to chasing each other or even fighting if they have to. So members of those groups bond really closely with each other by playing or by grooming each other. This is mostly females that do this, but sometimes the males will groom each other, like males will groom other males. It's mostly females that do the grooming. So the last kind of note that I had for their behavioral advantages, which I, I read this line in this study and it resonated so deeply with my soul: "resting dominates the daily activity budget."

Christian: Aw, yeah. Put that on a pillow.

Ellen: I was like, yeah, man, same. Resting dominates my daily activity budget. But so there's actually a reason for this. They are lazy on purpose. This strategy, I suppose, of spending most of their time resting allows them to conserve energy and spend more time digesting that like super high fiber diet of like mostly leaves. Right? We talked about this with a sloths.

Christian: Yeah, I was about to say, I think we've, we've seen this a couple of times now with animals that primarily eat leaves.

Ellen: Yeah. If you eat a lot of leaves, you actually aren't gonna end up with a lot of energy to be doing other stuff.

Christian: Like pandas.

Ellen: Yeah. Well, they're not supposed to be like that. I consider this tactical laziness.

Christian: Yeah. I mean, conservation of energy.

Ellen: Yeah. So I enjoyed that. That's my 8 out of 10 for their ingenuity. And finally, this brings us to aesthetics. For aesthetics for this animal I give them a 10 out of 10. This is a gorgeous monkey. Um, I know-, I don't think you've seen it yet.

Christian: No.

Ellen: You haven't seen it yet. So hopefully anybody listening to this would have already had a chance to Google them real quick.

Christian: I do have a mental image. I'm kinda curious to see how it stacks up.

Ellen: Can I hear your mental image first? What do you think they look like?

Christian: I'm imagining it's like, a golden fur...

Ellen: Nope.

Christian: No? Dang it...

Ellen: What do you think their face looks like?

Christian: I'm imagining a, almost a spider monkey type face.

Ellen: Okay. They have the flat face, like those other types of monkeys. It's not a long face like a, like a lemur or something.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: But so the body is mostly black. Now here's the kicker. Here is the selling point of Delacour's langur: they're wearing white shorts.

Christian: Whaaat?

Ellen: They have a black body and white shorts. It's like this patch of white fur that starts at their waist and it goes down to like, just above their knees. It's the best thing I've ever seen in my life. It also makes them look kind of like a panda a little bit. It's similar to a panda's markings.

Christian: Interesting.

Ellen: Yeah. I think it looks panda-like. They also, on top of their head, they have this crest of hair that looks a bit like a mohawk.

Christian: Oh boy.

Ellen: Yeah. So it gives their head this teardrop shape. Their head is shaped kind of like a teardrop, how it tapers at the top because of this Mohawk.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: So what this reminds me of is the chaos from the Sonic the Hedgehog video games. There are these gardens where you take care of these little adorable creatures called chaos, and they have that teardrop-shaped head and they're really cute.

Christian: I'll have to take your word for it.

Ellen: It's adorable. Trust me. Now, the babies are bright orange.And they have these huge giant ears. Big round ears, and they stick straight out on either side of their head, and the head is onion-shaped, so they have this big orange onion head and giant ears and it's perfect. And then they turn gray and then they turn black. It's the cutest thing.

Christian: I bet it's so the parents can keep track of them easier.

Ellen: It's a little safety vest. It's a high visibility- Oh my gosh, we should just start doing that with like, like human babies in crowded environments and stuff.

Christian: I think you could just connect the tile to like, the back of their shirt.

Ellen: Our little Bluetooth tile?

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: Find my child. So yeah, that's my 10 out of 10 aesthetics for this. This is a really beautiful monkey. It's absolutely gorgeous.

Christian: I'll have to look it up afterwards.

Ellen: Okay. Please do. So miscellaneous information: as I mentioned earlier, they are super duper not doing so good numbers wise. Their conservation status is critically endangered.

Christian: Wow.

Ellen: Yeah. This is one of the world's most endangered primates. There is an estimated around 250 left in the world. So there are two primary threats facing this monkey, the first of which is actually hunting by humans.

Christian: Really?

Ellen: So humans hunt them for their bones and tissue, which are ingredients used in traditional folk medicines.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: Yeah, you hate to see it. Another major threat is obviously the heavy loss and fragmentation of their habitat. So there's a lot of deforestation that has forced them into those limestone cliffs, and also there's quarrying for limestone. Nowhere is safe, right? Like the forest and the limestone are both kind of under attack. So in more recent years there's been actually a pretty decent little increase in their population, like over the last decade or so. There have been massive conservation efforts including the establishment of the nature reserve that protects the area where they live in, and the nature reserve is actually equipped with dedicated staff and guards to deter poaching. And they've started to reintroduce captive-bred langurs into the nature reserve.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: So they've been breeding them in captivity, there's only like 19 of them in captivity.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: So they've started breeding them in captivity and then reintroducing them into the wild, and they're starting to actually take off. So in much more recent studies of their populations, their numbers have increased a lot.

Christian: Good!

Ellen: So it seems like they're on an upswing, but still, I mean it is precarious. So there are a lot of organizations that are putting a lot of work into making sure that they stay on an upward trend. The ones that I could find were the Rainforest Trust and this organization called Flora and Fauna International. So they're both kind of putting a lot of footwork into helping out this monkey. I wanted to kind of spotlight it because I had never heard of it, and it ended up being really, really interesting and cool and beautiful, and so I wanted more people to know about Delacour's langur.

Christian: It's a good one.

Ellen: Yeah, that's my segment. That's my animal for this week.

Christian: Well, thank you, honey.

Ellen: You're welcome. Before we do Christian's animal, just a real quick shout out to our Patreon supporters this week, I would like to thank Briana Feinberg, Krystina Sanders, the Jungle Gym Queen, and Jacob Jones.

Ellen: Okay, baby. What you got?

Christian: All right, so this week I bring you in the listeners the Komodo dragon.

Ellen: Fantastic. Absolutely incredible.

Christian: Yes. This species was submitted by Kyle Rauch.

Ellen: Thank you.

Christian: And also the Varmints! Podcast.

Ellen: We love them. They're our very good friends.

Christian: Very good. The scientific name for Komodo dragon is Varanus komod- komodoensis.

Ellen: Komodoensis?

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: Oh, interesting. You said commode for a second, which- I don't know if this is elsewhere in the world, but in the American South, a commode means toilet.

Christian: It does. My information is primarily coming from the Smithsonian National Zoo website, found out nationalzoo.si.edu. Let's talk about Komodo dragons. I think this is a very visible animal. It's been in the media lots of times for quite some time.

Ellen: It's a popular boy.

Christian: It is. Let's talk about how big they get. So they weigh around 70 kilograms, or 154 pounds.

Ellen: 154 pounds!

Christian: Yep. The males tend to be longer and heavier than females. The largest verified specimen was 10.3 feet...

Ellen: No it was not.

Christian: Or 3.13 meters long.

Ellen: Stop it.

Christian: And weighed 366 pounds, or 166 kilograms.

Ellen: I'm so stressed out. That's so much. It's so much lizard.

Christian: It's big. So their weight tends to vary greatly, and I'll touch on that on why that is later. Where they are found are a few Indonesian islands called Rintja, Padar and Flores, and of course Komodo.

Ellen: Oh, it's the Island.

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: Oh wow.

Christian: They're named after that Island.

Ellen: Oh, they're named AFTER the Island.

Christian: I assume.

Ellen: That would make sense. Yeah.

Christian: However, they haven't been seen on the island of Padar since the 1970s. These islands are mostly tropical savannah forests. They belonged to the taxonomic family Varanidae, and that consists of most of the monitor lizards.

Ellen: So it's a type of monitor lizard?

Christian: Yeah, that's a good way to classify it. I'm going to jump right into effectiveness.

Ellen: Let's hear it.

Christian: So this is where the Komodo dragon really shines. I'm giving it a 10 out of 10 for effectiveness. So first, as you might have guessed, it is the largest living lizard in the world.

Ellen: So it is a lizard.

Christian: It is a lizard.

Ellen: Okay.

Christian: Not like crocodiles or alligators.

Ellen: That always trips me up, cause gators I always think look like lizards, but they're not.

Christian: Yeah. They can eat up to 80% of its own body weight. That would be equivalent of me eating about 220 pounds of food.

Ellen: So one of those peanut butter milkshakes that we had a couple of days ago.

Christian: So I mentioned a minute ago that their weights can be pretty drastically different. So this is because it kind of depends on when it was the last time they ate.

Ellen: Oh my gosh. It has that much of an effect?

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: How often do they need to eat?

Christian: I imagine not very often, based on how other reptiles do it.

Ellen: Yeah. Because I know if you have, like for example like a pet snake that is eating like, rats and stuff, you don't need to feed them very often.

Christian: Right. But yeah, so the weight largely depends on when was the last time they ate. Cause if they had just eaten, they're going to be much, much heavier than they normally are.

Ellen: Sure. That makes sense.

Christian: Yeah. They're at the top of their food chain in their environment.

Ellen: Naturally.

Christian: And they're also cannibalistic.

Ellen: *gasp* What?

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: Oh no.

Christian: This is going to be a theme, but let's talk about their food. So the young feed on small lizards, insects, snakes and birds, whereas once they get to 5+ years old, they start eating larger, prey such as rodents, monkeys, goats, wild boar and deer. Sometimes even water buffalo.

Ellen: Oh no. Those things are big.

Christian: They get big. My next point here for effectiveness, they have small bursts of speed. They can reach 10 to 13 miles per hour, or 16 to 20 kilometers per hour.

Ellen: That's okay.

Christian: Small burst of speed. That's not what they depend on though, usually.

Ellen: Right.

Christian: I'll talk more about their hunting methods in the ingenuity section. They have a very good sense of smell. They use their tongue to smell like many reptiles do, and snakes.

Ellen: Yeah, I think of snakes when I think of that like, tongue flicker thing.

Christian: Yep. So they have a big long forked tongue that they'll stick out and pull back in, and will rub against, I think it's called the Jacobson's organ on the top of their mouth.

Ellen: Okay.

Christian: So that's how they get the particles out of the air. So this is their primary way of finding food. They use this smell method and their undulatory walking, where as they're walking, their head is going from side to side so that they can tell, "okay, my head was pointing to the left, I could smell something, but if I pointed it to the right, I can smell it stronger. So it must be that way."

Ellen: Oh, that's why they kind of swagger like that.

Christian: It's part of it. Yeah.

Ellen: Okay. It's so funny to watch them walk, cause it's kind of like my mom's dog. My mom has a big dog with a big tail, and when the dog wags the tail, the tail wags the whole body. Right? So the whole body ends up like, shifting from side to side. And when the Komodo dragon walks, it kind of has that sachet to it a little bit.

Christian: Yeah. So that's it trying to get a direction.

Ellen: What catwalk anthem would you play to a clip of a Komodo dragon walking?

Christian: "You can tell by the way I use my walk..."

Ellen: I was also thinking that too! I was also thinking "Stayin Alive" by the Bee Gees.

Christian: Thanks. So yeah, that's how they find their prey. They can smell carrion, or rotting flesh...

Ellen: Sure, dead stuff.

Christian: ...From up to two and a half miles away, or four kilometers away.

Ellen: You're never safe.

Christian: Next is their sight. They can see objects as far away as 985 feet, or 300 meters. Or, to put that in perspective, 3 football fields,

Ellen: That is way better eyesight than I expected.

Christian: It's different though. So they're better at seeing movement rather than stationary objects, and their retinas have only cones, rather than how our eyes have cones and rods. So that means it's thought that they can distinguish color, but they have poor vision in dim light. Next up is their hearing. They have a smaller hearing range than humans, so they cannot hear sounds like low pitched voices or high-pitched screams. Why they specified it like that, I don't know.

Ellen: They needed you to know the Komodo dragon can't hear you scream.

Christian: So, to be undetected in terms of sound, I guess you just [in a very deep voice] talk way down here.

Ellen: So you've got that covered.

Christian: Yep.

Ellen: So you can- I don't think a Komodo dragon could hear you.

Christian: Yup. I guess you'll have to just scream constantly.

Ellen: Just mask myself with a constant barrage of screaming.

Christian: Yeah. And next is one of my favorite things about them, is their venom and bacteria in their saliva.

Ellen: Here's the moneymaker.

Christian: Yep. So for a long time it was thought that it was just bacteria, but I think it was somewhat recently discovered there's also venom in play.

Ellen: Sure, why not? Just go for both. Right?

Christian: So meat from previous meals get stuck between their teeth, and that encourages bacterial growth. They've been found to have over 50 different strains of bacteria, 7 of which are highly septic.

Ellen: Interesting. So poor dental hygiene is really their strength here.

Christian: "Why are they so deadly?" "It's because they ain't got no toothbrush." And they have a venom gland and their lower jaw.

Ellen: Oh, that too, also.

Christian: Yes. So those two things combined makes it so that when they bite something, that wound is going to be so that the blood can't clot. So that's the effect, and so that leads to blood loss and eventually shock and death.

Ellen: Oh my gosh.

Christian: Yes. The Komodo dragons are immune to both the venom and the bacteria. It's thought that perhaps it's because of antibodies in the Komodo dragons, but they are still researching this.

Ellen: So they cannot envenomate each other.

Christian: Correct.

Ellen: Oh, I guess that's helpful for them... Trying to eat each other.

Christian: Yes. Well, that and also their mating rituals, which I'll talk about later. But they have serrated teeth for tearing through flesh and then they just swallow the whole chunk of meat.

Ellen: So when you say serrated teeth, you mean like kind of jagged like a knife?

Christian: It's hard to describe. You'll want to take a look at it. Like you can see pictures of their teeth. It's very different from what you see in other animals. So it's designed to tear flesh into chunks, which it'll then just swallow whole.

Ellen: Sure. Interesting.

Christian: Yeah. Speaking of, they are efficient eaters, so they'll only leave about 12% of their prey behind when they're done. So they eat bones hooves, hide and intestines.

Ellen: They're not picky, huh?

Christian: Here's the thing though, before they eat those intestines, they will tear them out and swing them around to dislodge their contents before eating those intestines.

Ellen: Now that's pretty clever. They're like, you know what? Okay, we'll eat the bones, we'll eat the innards, we'll eat all that stuff. But I ain't eatin' poop.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: They have standards. Come on Christian.

Christian: So they have their disposition to avoid feces. This is important for later.

Ellen: Oh okay. We'll keep that one locked away.

Christian: Yes. I'm going to move on to ingenuity.

Ellen: I cannot wait.

Christian: I'm giving them a 7 out of 10 for ingenuity.

Ellen: That's decent.

Christian: One: Vomit for speed.

Ellen: What? Nuh-uh.

Christian: Where's what I mean by this...

Ellen: Wait, hold on. Did you get, did you get your Just the Zoo of Us notes and your Sea of Thieves strat notes confused?

Christian: Nope! So earlier we talked about they can eat so much that they increase their body weight by about 80%. So this of course slows them down. So if they find themselves in a situation where they are threatened and they need to run, they will vomit up their meal to lessen their weight so they can move faster.

Ellen: She can't take much more captain! We've got unload! *blech*.

Christian: Go, go, go! That might double as leaving food behind for whatever threatened you.

Ellen: It's it's also bait. It's also a quokka strategy. Okay, so here's my idea for a video game where you play as a Komodo dragon.

Christian: Okay.

Christian: So you have your tank mode, where you've just eaten a bunch of food and that's when you get a defense and an HP buff. And then, when you need to switch to DPS, you puke up all your food...

Christian: As a projectile. You get one projectile for this.

Ellen: Yes, it's an AOE, it's a projectile that does splash damage. And then you're, and then you switch to DPS and you take a cut to your defense and your HP, but you get a speed and an offense boost.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: So that's my, that's my idea for a Komodo dragon character. TM. Please don't steal.

Christian: So next up on ingenuity is their hunting methods. So earlier I mentioned they have the capability for bursts of speed, but their hunting method is largely based on stealth and power.

Ellen: Stealth?

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: That's unexpected for such a large lizard.

Christian: So they'll basically hang out on game trails, waiting for something to get near them and that's when they'll use their burst of speed.

Ellen: Oh, okay.

Christian: So they actually have a low success rate when it comes to killing its prey outright. So like meaning attacking the prey and killing them then and there. Very low success rate. Where they shine, though, is the long con. So if it gets at least one bite in, that bacteria and venom we were talking about, it will likely kill that prey within four days.

Ellen: Four days?!

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: Who has that kind of time?

Christian: The Komodo dragon.

Ellen: He gets one bite and he's like, "I can wait. Where you going? "

Christian: Well, it's going to run away and that's fine. It doesn't need to keep up.

Ellen: He's like, I'll get there eventually.

Christian: Because guess what? That thing is going to die eventually, and it will smell it and find it.

Ellen: That is very smart. I like the idea of like, getting one hit in and then being like, you know what, "I'm going to conserve energy. I'm just going to mosey on along."

Christian: Yeah. And plus these are islands, so it's, you know.

Ellen: Where's it gonna go?

Christian: So yeah, the animal gets bitten, runs away, eventually dies. The Komodo dragon will find it and start eating it, but also nearby Komodo dragons, will also find it and eat it.

Ellen: Oh, that's true.

Christian: So you'll usually a big group of Komodo dragons eating one big thing.

Ellen: Oh, okay. And are they like chill with each other?

Christian: Kinda... Kinda. It kinda depends. Here's our next very good thing about ingenuity, and I'm classifying it as "avoiding cannibalism."

Ellen: Avoiding cannibalism.

Christian: So this mostly has to do with the young Komodo dragons. The younger Komodo dragons usually are the ones that fall prey to cannibalism from other larger Komodo dragons.

Ellen: Because why not.

Christian: Remember how I said the feces thing was important?

Ellen: Uh huh...

Christian: So the young ones, to avoid being eaten....

Ellen: Uh. I don't...

Christian: Will roll around in fecal matter...

Ellen: This is horrible.

Christian: So that large dragons won't want to eat them.

Ellen: Well, yeah. Huh.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: Well, I don't know how this happened.

Christian: I think it's pretty smart, personally.

Ellen: I don't know how we got here.

Christian: Don't eat me, bro!

Ellen: "I'm covered in poop!" Well, I hate that a lot.

Christian: They do one more thing.

Ellen: Oh no.

Christian: So during these kind of feeding frenzies we talked about, the young ones will undergo what the Smithsonian website referred to as "rituals of appeasement," where they'll pace around a feeding circle in a "stately ritualized walk with their tail stuck straight out and throwing their body from side to side." So what I'm imagining here is like a water buffalo, dead, with a bunch of big dragons eating it, and then a bunch of smaller ones just walking around in a circle like, "Yeah! We did it! Yeah yeah yeah!"

Ellen: They're having a little Komodo dragon parade!

Christian: Could you imagine walking up on this?

Ellen: And being like, this is some sort of strange coven.

Christian: I want no part of this.

Ellen: They're summoning something.

Christian: This was the plot of Skyrim, I'm pretty sure.

Ellen: They're resurrecting one of their dead dragon comrades.

Christian: So yeah. Interesting techniques to avoid being cannibalized.

Ellen: That was a lot of information I didn't think I was gonna get.

Christian: Me neither.

Ellen: I wasn't emotionally braced for any of that.

Christian: So, that wraps up ingenuity, 7 out of 10. Moving on to aesthetics, also 7 out of 10. I think they have puppy dog faces.

Ellen: They do! They're so cute!

Christian: Granted they're big puppy dog faces, and danger puppy dog faces, but puppy dog faces nonetheless.

Ellen: They have that rounded nose and kind of a broad snout, right?

Christian: Yeah. They, they remind me of pythons in a way, with the shape of their nose and mouth a little bit. Just a little bit.

Ellen: Yeah. And also when you get that tongue flicking thing in there too, it kind of really leans into the Python face look.

Christian: And then they have these very pronounced brow ridges above their eyes.

Ellen: Yeah.

Christian: It reminds me of Godzilla a little bit. Some of the older designs of Godzilla.

Ellen: Probably that was inspired a little bit by the Komodo dragon.

Christian: Could have been. Um, they're very long. They're long boys, although they're not very exciting in terms of color.

Ellen: That's true. They're kind of...

Christian: A little bland.

Ellen: Which is probably good for camouflage and good for not being seen. Yeah. But is it fashion? No.

Christian: And with everything else we learned about them, I'm pretty sure they don't smell very good.

Ellen: There are so a few things that they could smell like and none of them are good.

Christian: It's either rotting meat or...

Ellen: Or poop.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: Limited scent options.

Christian: So that wraps up aesthetics for me. On some little fun facts. Their conservation status is vulnerable. However, they were last assessed in 1996.

Ellen: Oh, it's been a minute.

Christian: It's been over 20 years since they were last assessed, and there's no population trend data on them. They are difficult to determine sex between them cause there's no big morphological differences between males and females, other than a slight difference in size. The males compete for females by wrestling.

Ellen: Wrestling each other?

Christian: Yes. The males wrestle other males. You probably have seen this on nature documentaries where they'll kind of clash up on their hind legs and they'll smash their upper bodies together.

Ellen: Chest bump!

Christian: Trying to push one or the other over onto the ground.

Ellen: Okay, sure.

Christian: Yeah. So a lot of times blood will be drawn during these kinds of wrestling matches.

Ellen: I guess it's a good thing they're immune to that venom, huh?

Christian: Yup, yup. And they also have sharp claws, so there's that. So yeah, that's how they fight for females. Their life span in the wild is thought to be about 30 years.

Ellen: Wow. That's old boy.

Christian: Yep.

Ellen: I guess with how big they are, that makes sense. Usually something that is bigger lives a longer time.

Christian: Yeah. And I don't know if this is just because of our experiences, but I feel like I've seen them in zoos a lot. So there's the Jacksonville Zoo has one or two, I believe the Atlanta Zoo had one and the Smithsonian has one in DC. That's why they had an article about them.

Ellen: I do also feel like they're very popular zoo animals. I don't have data on that, but I do feel like it's a very standard thing to see in a zoo.

Christian: Yeah. I'm not sure if it's just anecdotal because we happen to go to the zoos that have them.

Ellen: Yeah. Maybe they're just easy to take care of. Right?

Christian: Maybe.

Ellen: It's just kind of, it's just a lizard but big. You just feed it some... burgers and stuff. But no poop. They will turn that down.

Christian: No!

Ellen: I don't want it! Yeah, so at the Jacksonville Zoo, they do have at least one big Komodo dragon. I think there's more than one.

Christian: Yeah, I think they have one adult and one or two juveniles.

Ellen: I'm sure the juveniles have grown up by now, cause it's been awhile since we've seen them.

Christian: It takes like five years, though.

Ellen: Oh that's- I dunno. But we have, there's at least one. So it's a really, it's beautiful, beautiful Komodo dragon. What?

Christian: I just had a realization why they had two separate habitats for them.

Ellen: To not eat each other?

Christian: Dang.

Ellen: Yeah. So at the Jacksonville Zoo, there's a big exhibit for the Komodo dragon and then there's a smaller one for the babies. Um, yeah, that makes sense. So they didn't get rekt. Yeah. But like you said, kind of meh. Like, cute, but not super interesting to look at.

Christian: No like, dazzling colors or anything.

Ellen: Yeah. So the really funny thing about the Komodo dragon exhibit at our zoo is that right next to the Komodo dragon exhibit, there is a... What is the material that the statue is made out of? Bronze?

Christian: Yeah, something like that.

Ellen: There's like a bronze statue of a Komodo dragon and it's low to the ground where it's meant to be like a photo op, right? Like it's something you can take a photo with and it's sloped in such a way that it is like perfect for a child to like sit on top of or like, sort of recline across because of the slope. It's like a Komodo dragon with the head sticking up and then the body sloped downwards. However, it's made of bronze, and we are in Florida where it gets HOT.

Christian: Yeah. Because it's in direct sunlight.

Ellen: It's right in the sun, too. And so they have a sign, like right next to the statue that says like, "HOT!" Do not, please do not burn yourself on this Komodo dragon. I'm sure it's happened before where people have just kind of glomped right onto it.

Christian: Well you know, there's usually reasons for signs. You know, they say rules are often written in blood.

Ellen: Yeah. So it always, it always makes me chuckle a little bit to see like it's this very beautiful regal Komodo dragon statue, and then right next to it is like, "Don't do it!"

Christian: Too hot to handle.

Ellen: Yeah. I have some really cute pictures of Isaac hanging out with the Komodo dragon statue. Yeah, it's really sweet. So I love our, I love our Komodo dragon at the zoo.

Christian: That's the Komodo dragon.

Christian: Excellent. Nicely done. Thank you baby.

Christian: Anytime.

Ellen: And thank you to everybody who has spent this time with us today. Thank you for listening and thank you for telling people about us and thank you for reviewing us. Thank you for rating us on iTunes or Podchaser or whatever other sort of cool services you use to listen to podcasts. You can connect with us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, all that stuff. Just search the title of the show. Come hang out with us in our Facebook group. We have a group and it's so good, it's called Just the Zoo of Us: Official Friend Squad, so come hang out with us in there and it's really fun. If you have an animal species that you want to hear us review, you can send those to us either, you know, get them to us on social media, like tweet at us, send us a message on Facebook, any of that stuff. But if you want to use email, you can send them to me at ellen@justthezooofus.com. A transcript of this episode and a bunch of other ones will be made available at our website, justthezooofus.com, and last note. Thank you Louie Zong for letting us use your song "Adventuring" off of your album Bee Sides as our intro and outro.

Christian: Yeah. Thank you thank you.

Ellen: Thank you.

Christian: Alright...

Ellen: That's all she wrote. That's all we wrote. That's all- Well, that's all we spoke into those microphones.

Christian: Yep. Until next time.

Ellen: Stay warm out there.

Christian: Bye!

Ellen: Bye!

27: Sentry Dragonfly & Leafy Sea Dragon

Ellen: Hey. You.

Christian: Me?

Ellen: You're finally awake. This is Ellen Weatherford.

Christian: And Christian Weatherford.

Ellen: And this is Just the Zoo of Us, your favorite animal review podcast in which we take your favorite species of animals and we review them and rate them out of 10, and this week we're bringing you: dragons. Christian and I are not zoological experts, but we do a lot of research to get ready for the show and make sure that we are presenting you information from trustworthy resources. Really, really quick before we get started in the show, I don't normally put announcements at the top, but this is a big one: If you are listening to this and you live in Jacksonville, Florida, and you would like to hear us do this at your face in real life, in person, you can come see us do a live show at Cultivate on Saturday, November 30th. Tickets are available online, so come check us out.

Christian: Yes, it will be very good. I promise I don't have a radio face.

Ellen: Oh, so you are saying like, I promise I'm very attractive and handsome.

Christian: Of course! No, I wouldn't go that far, but...

Ellen: I promise I'm very pleasant to look at that. Anyway, so that was my little announcement section, so on to the dragons.

Christian: Alright babe, who's up first this week?

Ellen: Me. It's my turn.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: This week I have the absolute pleasure of reviewing the sentry dragonfly, also known as the Australian Emerald dragonfly.

Christian: It sounds pretty.

Ellen: The scientific name is Hemicordulia australiae.

Christian: Excellent name.

Ellen: Yes. So this species was submitted to us by our new friend Benjamin Lancer. A while back, I praised Alyssa Años for submitting like, the best species request ever where it was just an email where like. The body of the email was just the word "quokka" and that was it, and I was like, that's the best request ever. This request was the best request ever and it was the exact polar opposite of that. So Benjamin reached out because Benjamin researches these dragonflies specifically, in a laboratory setting. Earlier I mentioned that we're not experts on these animals, but Benjamin is.

Christian: Yay!

Ellen: So all of the details that I'll be getting into are all from our buddy Benjamin.

Christian: Nice.

Ellen: Yes. So Benjamin Lancer is at the University of Adelaide's Visual Physiology and Neurobotics Laboratory, so I'm mostly going to be paraphrasing the treasure trove of information he sent- he was so kind to send to me. To introduce you to this dragonfly, this is going to be kind of an introduction not only to this dragonfly, but to dragonflies in general if you're not very familiar with them. This dragonfly is about five centimeters, or two inches long and has a wingspan of about seven centimeters, or just under three inches.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: It's big for an insect, right? Bigger than most insects you find.

Christian: Sure, but probably about what one thinks of when you think of a dragonfly.

Ellen: Yeah. If you've never seen a dragonfly, what they look like is most of their length is made up of their very, very long, skinny body and that is all abdomen baby. Like it's all like, kind of what you would think of as their tail, and they have two pairs of wings. One of them is in front of the other and the one closest to the head is slightly larger. And when they are at rest, they hold those wings out horizontally. This is as opposed to the damselfly, which holds the wings vertically at rest. So this is one of the ways you can tell a dragonfly from a damselfly, is whether they hold their wings out to the side or upways. Now, this dragonfly in particular is located, as the name would imply, in Australia. It can also be found in the surrounding islands and New Zealand.

Christian: Okay, cool.

Ellen: So you're not going to find them where we live. We have dragonflies, but we don't have this dragonfly.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: Dragonflies makeup the infraorder Anisoptera, of which there are about 3,000 recorded species. There's so many dragonflies.

Christian: Makes sense.

Ellen: There's a lot. So we have some in our backyard, but they are definitely not this one. In their genus there are about at least 13 known species, but the one I'm specifically talking about, their common names include the sentry dragonfly and the Australian emerald dragonfly. Let's get into their ratings. If this is your first time joining us, we divide our ratings into three categories, the first of which being effectiveness, which we define as the physical attributes of the animal that give it a sort of competitive edge over other animals that make it really good at doing the things that it's trying to do and accomplishing what it's going for. So just because they're called "dragonflies," dragon is in their name, does that necessarily mean that they are these legendary killing machines, menacing the skies and striking terror into the hearts of their utterly defenseless prey? Yes, it absolutely does. 10 out of 10. Dragonflies are believed to be some of the world's most successful predators, securing 95 to 97% of their attempted prey captures.

Christian: Oh okay.

Ellen: To put this into context, the highest vertebrate predator's success rate is 85% by African wild dogs.

Christian: Huh.

Ellen: Now, African lions, between 20 and 30%. Absolute garbage.

Christian: Yeah, I remember hearing about those.

Ellen: But so the dragonfly almost always catches what it's trying to catch. Almost every time. Very, very close to 100%, like pretty much as good as it gets as far as predators.

Christian: Can I take a stab at why?

Ellen: Best of luck.

Christian: Is it their aerial acrobatics?

Ellen: Sort of.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: Sort of. Related to their aerial acrobatics, they are very powerful fliers. So as I mentioned a minute ago, they have four really powerful wings, but something that is unique about dragonflies and their wings is that they have the ability to control each wing individually, separately from each other.

Christian: So, not even like, the separate pairs but each one individually?

Ellen: Each individual of the four wings, they can move separately from the others.

Christian: Wow.

Ellen: So there's this sort of concept of what's called a stroke plane, which is the axis along which the wings are aligned. Dragonflies, like other insects, can rotate their wings to flap in different directions. But the dragonfly is able to change the angle of each of its four wings. So this is what allows it to pull off some of those really crazy aerodynamic moves. So they can hover, where they're just flying completely still in the air, they're just hanging there like they're frozen in the air, they can make sudden sharp turns and even 180 degree turns just on a dime.

Christian: Wow.

Ellen: Yeah. It's really crazy to see them do this, but it's because of how much control they have over their wings. So as a really cool little added perk of those wings, dragonfly wings are completely covered in microscopic spikes. They're called nanopillars, and the nanopillars shred bacteria to bits, preventing it from being able to survive on the surface of the wing.

Christian: Oh, okay. Oh, so it's like really, really small.

Ellen: Yes. It's really just for preventing bacteria from growing on the wings.

Christian: That's one way to do it.

Ellen: Isn't that cool?

Christian: Huh.

Ellen: Yeah. So as amazing as their wings are, the wings do have one weakness: Water.

Christian: Huh.

Ellen: So when the wings are wet, they are too heavy to flap and the dragonfly cannot take off. So this is not really ideal for a species that lays eggs in water, and therefore it needs to be hanging around water quite a bit. Yeah. So that was just, that's just their one sort of weakness, I suppose.

Christian: What parts of Australia are these things in? Is it like the whole continent or...

Ellen: It's more like near the coasts, like along riverbanks and stuff like that.

Christian: Oh yeah, I guess that makes sense, cause they need that to breed. Okay.

Ellen: So the next thing I want to talk about is their eyes. So dragonflies, when you look at them, most of their face is the eyes, right? The eyes are kind of like two hemispheres on the front of the head. So dragonflies have compound eyes that are very large. So relative to their body size, they're among the biggest eyes of all of the animals. Which, if you remember last week, I also said that about the vampire squid. So I don't know, I don't have access to the numbers needed to make those calculations. But if anybody does, if anybody out there can run the math to see which has bigger proportional eyes, the dragonfly or the vampire squid, please figure that out and hit me up. Please do the math for me. Thank you. So we've talked about compound eyes on the show before, way, way, way back when we talked about the praying mantis. But let's go over them one more time because that's been a really long time and our audio quality wasn't very good back then, so let's do it again.

Christian: Alright.

Ellen: So the compound eye is made up of very, very many little teeny tiny miniature... Kind of like eyes, and those little teeny tiny eyes are called ommatidia.

Christian: One more time.

Ellen: Ommatidia. O-M-M-A-T-I-D-I-A, and that is the plural of the word ommatidium.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: So one of them is an ommatidium, many of them are ommatidia. And they all function together to make the visual image that the dragonfly is seeing. So a lot of people kind of assume that a compound eye made up of many, many eyes means that the insect can see very, very well. It's not necessarily true. So the ommatidia don't actually produce very detailed images. So the metaphor that Benjamin provided when talking about the compound eye is that of an image on a computer screen, where each ommatidium gives the dragonfly one pixel that together form a whole image, but it's in pretty bad resolution. It's like a pixelated, not very clear image. You're not going to get a lot of detail out of it. So the strength of the compound eye is in field of view rather than detail. So the dragonfly can see in nearly 360 degrees, eliminating their blind spot and making them very, very hard to sneak up on. So they can't see itty bitty details, but they can see everything. But with that being said, the real strength in the dragonfly's visual system is in its processing power, in the way that its visuals are connected to its brain and the way its brain processes that information. Which brings me to our next category: ingenuity, which we define as clever behavioral adaptations that an animal has that make it good at kinda outsmarting the obstacles in its way every day. For the Australian Emerald dragonfly. I'm giving it a 10 out of 10 for ingenuity.

Christian: Okay! That's surprising for an insect.

Ellen: Yes. It's very surprising for an insect. This is our friend Benjamin's area of expertise, and kind of the whole reason for requesting this dragonfly. This dragonfly has, at sort of a cursory glance, a very simple brain. It only has about a million neurons, which sounds like a lot, but to put it in perspective, a human has 86 billion neurons, so a human has 86,000 times more neurons than this dragonfly.

Christian: Alright.

Ellen: It seems like a very simple little brain, seems like not a lot going on. However, there's one neuron in particular that Benjamin studies in the dragonfly called the Centrifical Small Target Motion Detector 1, or CSTMD1, which he does by placing electrodes inside the brains on the individual neurons of the dragonfly.

Christian: Wow.

Ellen: I got stressed out just thinking about that game of Operation. And then after putting electrodes on the brain of the dragonfly, presenting the dragonfly with stimuli and then measuring the response of the dragonfly's brain to the stimuli. This neuron, CSTMD1, has the job of keeping track of moving targets by predicting where the target is going and focusing its visual processing attention there at the spot where the target is going.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: The dragonfly doesn't chase their prey in the sense that other predators do by following behind the prey, catching up to it based on speed, and that's kinda it. Right? So instead, the dragonfly predicts where its prey is going, and flies there instead, and intercepts the prey as it travels along a path.

Christian: Does this imply their prey are usually also flying?

Ellen: Yes. They hunt other small insects like mosquitoes, flies, basically any- they could even hunt like smaller dragonflies. Basically any flying insect that's small enough for them to eat.

Christian: So that predictive capability is... Even for computing, is pretty complicated.

Ellen: It's extremely complicated and it's very surprising that they do that with such a small brain. But so yeah, they intercept the prey as it travels along a path. I mean, this is so complicated that this is something that even like, I can't do. Which you know, having played video games with me that require firing slow-moving projectiles at moving targets.

Christian: Which is why you play hitscan.

Ellen: I can't! But you know, if you've ever like, tried to throw a ball at a moving target or something, it's very, very hard to factor both your target's trajectory in your own and accurately hit something with a 97% accuracy rate! That's insane!

Christian: Well, what's also impressive, you know, when you're talking about a ball or something, you know, the target might be moving along a linear path at a set speed. So it's somewhat easier to predict, but with something like trying to chase down a mosquito, that mosquito could go in any direction at varying speeds. So that's just more, more impressive in my mind.

Ellen: Yeah, it's insanely cool. So now, whenever- I feel like whenever I see dragonflies, like zipping around in our backyard, I'm imagining the little floating math equations around their heads. Simple geometry. When we talk about focusing on a target, what the dragonfly is doing when it's focusing on a target, is it is amplifying visual responses from the target and suppressing responses from anything that is not the target. Does that make sense so far?

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: So instead of amplifying everything, they're only amplifying what they're interested in. So you're not amplifying all of the sort of noise around it, ignoring the entire world outside of that target and pretending everything else in the world does not exist. This is called giving it absolute attention. Anything other than that mosquito that they're after might as well not exist. So this means that even if some unexpected stimulus, like say like something falls out of a tree or something moves in the water below them, something like that, they resist the distraction and stay perfectly on trajectory.

Christian: Nice.

Ellen: Even if that stimulus is more noticeable than their target of interest. Right? So say they're flying after a mosquito and then like, a fish jumps out of the water or something, that's way more noticeable than a mosquito flying around, but they're on target so they don't get distracted. So this is different from attention in, for example, vertebrates, which rather than absolute attention, is something called "weighted attention," which responds to stimulation from multiple sources by averaging out the intensity of the responses. In the case of weighted attention, even just the existence of other stimuli, regardless of their importance, impacts the amount of attention given to the task at hand. So imagine that there's like, a lot of people talking, you're in a crowded room, but you're trying to have a conversation with somebody in particular. Even though you're paying attention to that person and you're giving them, to the best of your ability, all of your attention, you can still kinda hear the people around you, right? It's still a little bit more difficult for you to focus on them cause there's just a lot going on, right?

Christian: Right.

Ellen: You're going to get distracted, there's just- even though you're focusing on them, the other things going on around you are factoring into the amount of attention you can pay to the conversation you're trying to have. The dragonfly is not like that at all. The dragonfly can just pretend the rest of the world doesn't exist.

Christian: Cool.

Ellen: So the ability of the dragonfly to entirely filter out all distractions allows them to focus completely on their prey and pull off all the crazy trajectory calculations that they need to do while they're zipping around in the air. So this is particularly useful for two reasons, the first of all being that dragonflies are most likely to be active and hunting in these very visually noisy areas. So there's lots of foliage, lots of vegetation, other wildlife around. So hunting insects in these kinds of settings is a little bit like playing where's Waldo, except everything is moving and Waldo is less than half an inch long, and also your vision is in 144p. It's very, very difficult to do. So having that ability to sort of laser focus is very important in this setting. So the second reason is that dragonflies largely hunt prey that groups together in swarms. So when there are hundreds of possible targets buzzing around, it's really easy to get confused and lose track of them, which is why the mosquito swarm in the first place. They do this on purpose. This is a tactic to confuse predators. But dragonflies are immune to the confusion response.

Christian: Wow.

Ellen: They cannot be confused. So what that means is that when the mosquitoes are swarming and there's a whole bunch of them in a small area, that makes it more difficult for them to evade because they're densely crowded, right? So since the sentry dragonfly doesn't get confused by those large numbers, what they're essentially doing is they're turning that swarming tactic against the mosquitoes and turning it into a weakness instead of a strength. Because now, instead of having the benefit of flying around and confusing your predators, now you've just crowded yourselves and made it more difficult for you to get away.

Christian: So it picks out a target. Does it just keep following that target or does it reassess like, "oh, wait a minute, there's an easier target in the swarm"?

Ellen: I don't think it really needs to do that. Like I don't think it needs to factor in easier targets, because once it's kind of locked on, it's probably going to get what it's after.

Christian: I guess if it's chasing a mosquito and it runs into another mosquito, you know that kind of thing.

Ellen: I'm sure it wouldn't turn it down. Free meal I guess.

Christian: Just like, "No, not this one. I want that one."

Ellen: I don't know. But that's a pretty funny idea, that like one literally flies directly into its mouth and it just spits it out on the ground. Like, that's not the one I wanted. So what you are probably thinking is that, well, what if the dragonfly is hyperfocused on a mosquito, it's chasing down a mosquito and what it doesn't notice is a bird swooping down to catch it, right? Like what if it's ignoring threats because of its sort of tunnel vision?

Christian: Right.

Ellen: Fret not for our dragonfly friend. The dragonfly is able to prioritize targets to focus on and switch between them, thanks to our new favorite neuron, CSTMD1. This essentially gives them kind of the best of both attention styles, providing them the distraction-free hyperfocus of absolute attention and the responsive flexibility of weighted attention. So yes, they can switch the things that they're focused on.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: But the things that they are focused on, they are 100% focused on. Nothing else exists to them.

Christian: Yeah, I wouldn't describe it like that then, cause it- they are aware of everything else around it.

Ellen: So that's kind of the mystery of this neuron. That's why they're studying it.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: Because nothing else that has this type of completely focused attention, nothing else is able to switch targets like a dragonfly. They don't know why. They don't know why it can do that. So that's why they're studying it, to figure out why it's able to switch targets like that. It's kind of a mystery.

Christian: I have a theory.

Ellen: Okay, let me hear it.

Christian: Two brains. One body.

Ellen: Okay...

Christian: That's it.

Ellen: Great job Christian.

Christian: I guess in my mind I'm imagining some sort of like, two creatures fused into one, one is concentrating on like a particular thing and then the other one's concentrating on everything else. It's like my... Two headed dragon! There it is.

Ellen: Perfect. Alright. Headcanon accepted. So Benjamin actually said that kind of the hope for their lab's research is to figure out how the dragonfly's very simple brain is able to pull off such insanely complicated and adaptive processes, and what they want to do is they want to apply those concepts to artificial intelligence.

Christian: Ah, okay.

Ellen: To do things like making self-driving cars safer, make them better at, you know, like sensing targets and making changes to their behavior based on what they're focused on.

Christian: Hmm. That's interesting.

Ellen: Yeah, I thought that was pretty cool. I thought you would like that.

Christian: Yeah. That's awesome.

Ellen: So all this is really cool, right? They can hyperfocus on things, they can switch what they're hyper focused on, it's all really awesome. But wait! There's more. There's even more cool stuff the dragonfly does. They have this really awesome hunting strategy. Besides the interception strategy, another really cool thing that they do is that they approach their prey from below, so they're staying within their prey' blind spot until they're close enough. So they know where their prey can't see them, and they come from that angle.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: That's pretty smart, right? Because you have to understand your prey well enough to know where it cannot see you.

Christian: I wonder if dragonflies also have a weakness in that angle.

Ellen: They don't really have a blind spot, but they have another way that they sneak up on each other.

Christian: Ah, okay.

Ellen: So when male dragonflies fight each other, they can fight each other over territory or mates or something like that, and when that happens, you end up in a real predator vs. predator situation, right? Like you have like two unstoppable, perfect killing machines in a dog fight to the death, right?

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: It's kind of two champions enter, one champion leaves. Usually they will actually end up not fighting. They will size each other up, dance around each other a little bit, do some cool moves in the air, kind of show off a little bit and be like, look, I'm so much stronger than you. And then one of them will chicken out and leave. So they will usually opt not to actually physically fight.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: However, if neither of them back down and it comes down to it, they will escalate to violence and they will use their own weaknesses against each other. So, not having a blind spot, they sneak up on each other by using an illusion. It's called motion camouflage. What it means is that they fly on a path to intercept the target in such a way that from the target's perspective, their position doesn't change. It stays in the same spot over the target's retina. Does this make sense?

Christian: Oh, yeah... Yes.

Ellen: So it's not moving from like, left to right, or up or down...

Christian: Relative to its prey.

Ellen: Relative to its target that it's hunting down. It's not changing position.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: So they don't appear to be moving to their target. So the target doesn't notice them, and ignores them until they're too close to escape.

Christian: Interesting.

Ellen: Yes. Is that not crazy? It's like they know, I'm hunting down another dragonfly. It has bad depth perception because I also have bad depth perception.

Christian: So the thing with that, not moving relative to each other, that would be observed from both of them, though. But I guess the one initiating the attack is already focused on the dragonfly and understands that's what's going on.

Ellen: Yes.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: It's like, I'm attacking that dragonfly. I'm going for it.

Christian: To me, I know it doesn't look like it's moving, but I know what's going on cause I'm the one initiating this. The one initiating the attack is focused on it and the other one just doesn't know yet.

Ellen: Yeah. Hasn't noticed it.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: So yeah, I thought that was just really, really cool.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: It knows the pitfalls of its own visual system, so it knows how to... It knows how to use that to its own advantage. So once the dragonfly has caught his rival, their combat strategy against each other is to grab the opponent's tail and just yeet him down into the water below. Cause they're usually fighting over water.

Christian: Yeah...

Ellen: So they just pile drive them down into the water below, which as I mentioned earlier, that can be a death sentence.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: It can kill the other dragonfly because if they get down on the water, their wings get too wet and they can't take off. And if they're not able to like, climb out of the water or something so that their wings can dry off, then that's just it.

Christian: Something will probably eat them.

Ellen: A frog, a lizard, a fish, something like that will probably get them before they can get out of the water. The last thing that I wanted to talk about about their mating and their ingenuity in their mating is my favorite thing ever, that if a male dragonfly is attempting to court a female who is not interested, the female will suddenly drop to the ground, falling out of the sky, faking her own death...

Christian: Womp womp...

Ellen: To get out of a bad date. We've all been there, girlfriend. This is a relatable dragonfly who has just faked her own death to get out of date.

Christian: Yikes...

Ellen: Yup. So those are all the absolutely mind-blowingly cool stuff about dragonflies that I learned from our buddy Benjamin Lancer.

Christian: That's awesome.

Ellen: Yeah. It's just so surprisingly complex, all of the insane things that are going on in a dragonfly's brain, and he said that their brains are the size of a grain of rice, and they can pull off all of these insane like- motion prediction, they've got trajectory calculations, they've got stealth, they've got illusion, they just have so much. And they're even thinking about like, I know what kills me. I'm going to use it to kill the other one of me. Just, I can't, I can't, I can't. It blows my mind if I think about dragonflies too much. This brings me to my last category for the Australian emerald dragonfly: aesthetics. I give it an 8 out of 10. This is a pretty dragonfly. It has this long, black-and-yellow segmented abdomen. I think it looks like bamboo, maybe like aged bamboo, how it's got like a black and yellow coloration to it. So in maturity, their eyes turn from brown to bright green, which is where they get that name, Australian emerald. Like all dragonflies, the shape of their body and those four wings- and the wings look like glass, right? They're completely transparent. They have those veins all throughout them that make them look kind of like... I say stained glass, but they're just clear. They're not colorful or anything.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: I think it makes them look like a really cool futuristic spaceship.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: And sometimes, when you see them flying, their wings are arranged in such a way that they kind of look like an X-wing.

Christian: Ha, yeah. I can see that.

Ellen: So yeah, that's my 8 out of 10 for their aesthetics.

Christian: Nice.

Ellen: I'm gonna wrap up with some miscellaneous information. Their conservation status is of least concern. They're fine. Benjamin really wants people to know that dragonflies cannot sting you or hurt you in literally anyway.

Christian: Oh good.

Ellen: There's nothing they can do to you. He says that they can bite, but it does not hurt, and it is very rare. They can bite you, but I mean, there's nothing to it. He said that he works with them every single day and has been bitten like once or twice. So it's really not a thing that they do. It's not something that they use for self-defense. So they have these two appendages at the end of their abdomen, they look like a pincer, so they look like something that would be able to pinch you or something, but it's actually just a little grabby bits and all they use it for is to hold on to each other when they mate. So it's not anything that they could use against you in any way. They're totally fine. Leave them alone. Like they're not going to hurt you in any way at all.

Christian: Cool.

Ellen: You actually want dragonflies around. Like they're awesome to have around. I love having them, because they eat all the mosquitoes in our backyard.

Christian: Yay!

Ellen: We have blue dashers, we don't have this type of dragonfly. So another thing that Benjamin wanted to kind of reiterate is that this neuron that he studies has only been recorded in this species of dragonfly and another one that's closely related to it that's in the same genus, but it's likely that they exist in many other types of dragonflies, they just haven't been recorded yet.

Christian: Nice.

Ellen: Yeah. So that's why I wanted to specify that that was the species I was talking about in this episode, because this information is particularly- I can only like confirm that it's this species has this, others probably do, this is just the information that is available to me at this time.

Christian: Cool.

Ellen: Yeah. So in summary, they are the perfect hunter and it is by nothing short of the merciful hand of mother nature that made them too small to eat humans that we survive to this day. Because if they were big enough to eat us, they would, and we probably never would have made it past like an early primate stage.

Christian: Well, you can thank the oxygen content of our atmosphere is that is the main limiting factor in the size of bugs and insects.

Ellen: I did see that there was this ancient prehistoric species of dragonfly that had a two foot wingspan.

Christian: Yikes.

Ellen: It's pretty big. It's still not big enough to eat a human, so I think we would still be okay.

Christian: I mean, I still- you probably would want to avoid the bite of that even more so.

Christian: Yeah... Although I don't know. I don't know if they would have had like, anything that they could bite us with. Well anyway, I'm glad they don't exist!

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: So that's all the, that's all the information I had on the Australian Emerald dragonfly.

Christian: Very good. Thank you.

Ellen: I have one thing before we move on.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: It's a special treat. Do you remember last week when you wrote a poem about the botfly?

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: So you did that, and it got a bunch of people riled up who rioted in the streets and demanded that I write a poem. I wrote a poem about the Australian emerald dragonfly.

Christian: Oh boy. Let's hear it.

Ellen: So here's my poem:

For their name to glorify,
Without a doubt they qualify.
Midges and mosquitos try
Escaping peril in the sky,
But though they flee and try to hide,
Their swarming tactics won’t divide
The focus of the steely-eyed
Australian emerald dragonfly.

Christian: Oh, that's so nice. I like it.

Ellen: That's my poem!

Christian: Well done honey.

Ellen: Thank you. What you got now, Christian? Step up your game.

Christian: Well, I'll put this out there now: I did not prepare a poem.

Ellen: Before we move on to Christian's animal, I would like to thank our patrons for this week: Briana Feinberg, Krystina Sanders, the Jungle Gym Queen, and Jacob Jones.

Christian: Oh, thanks y'all.

Ellen: Thank you guys.

Ellen: Now what you got Christian?

Christian: The species that I'm bringing to this episode is the leafy sea dragon.

Ellen: We did the sky dragon. This is the sea dragon.

Christian: Yes. Scientific name: Phycodurus eques. I'm assuming that's how that's pronounced, based on the word equestrian.

Ellen: You got it.

Christian: And this species was submitted by Dalton Weeks.

Ellen: Thanks Dalton!

Christian: And I'll be getting my information from Marinebio.org, Monterey- I typed in Monterey May Aquarium, but I know it to be MontereyBayAquarium.org, and nationalgeographic.com I have a fourth source, but I will mention that when I get to its content-specific piece.

Ellen: A secret surprise?

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: It's a surprise tool that'll help us later.

Christian: So first of all, these things have a nickname. They are called leafies.

Ellen: Oh! A leafy!

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: I love them.

Christian: And they get to be about 35 centimeters long, or 14 inches, thereabouts. And you can find these off the Southern coastline of Australia.

Ellen: This is a sub theme.

Christian: Yeah. So a-

Ellen: Primary theme theme, dragons, secondary theme, Australia.

Christian: So you mentioned Adelaide, I believe that is located in the Southern part of Australia, so it's even more themed. They belong to the taxonomic family Syngnathidae.

Ellen: Nailed it.

Christian: And the notable evolutionary relatives there are pipefish and sea horses.

Ellen: And the weedy sea dragon, right?

Christian: Yes. A lot of people will probably note they do look somewhat similar to sea horses, so that is their relation, but they are not the same thing. And to describe what these guys look like, so they are called the leafy sea dragon because they have appendages that look almost exactly like seaweed, and the color kind of ranges around the browns, yellows, olive-colored. That brings me to my first point of effectiveness, on which I'm giving an 8 out of 10.

Ellen: That's pretty good!

Christian: Yes. And the main thing there is camouflage.

Ellen: Yeah, that'll do it. That'll keep you alive.

Christian: Yep. That's its main thing. It's meant to blend in with the seaweed. Very well, I might add. So you'll see these things, the best way I can describe them is imagine a sea horse, but with leafy appendages.

Ellen: So the sea horse is like the day time, going to work office attire, and then at night when the seahorse goes out to the club, then you get the leafy sea dragon.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: Leafy sea dragons are just drag sea horses. There, I said it.

Christian: Oh, that's what you're getting at. Okay, thank you. And real quick, what they eat: so they have these pipe-like snouts, and they use those to suck up small animals like plankton, mysids, and other small crustaceans. But that's, that's another trait that they share with seahorses is that little pipe snout.

Ellen: It's like a little straw that they're sucking stuff through?

Christian: Yep.

Ellen: Oh, okay. I guess they're not chewing things, then. Right?

Christian: I think they're just swallowing them whole.

Ellen: Aww, it's a little sea Roomba.

Christian: And I also wanted to mention that those little leafy appendages, they are not used for locomotion at all. They're just there for looks, for camouflage. And they also have little spots in them like, like the kind of spots you would actually see in seaweed. I just think that's really neat how closely they resemble it.

Ellen: That is cool.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: That's like when you talked about the Gaboon viper, and you mentioned how their head has a marking that is supposed to mimic the vein in a leaf.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: It's really cool when you look into animals that mimic foliage, it's insane how spot on they can get.

Christian: For sure. Also I should mention, the seadragon is a fish

Ellen: I guess... Okay. So logically I understand that, yes, that makes sense, but I guess I never thought of them or... Are seahorses fish? I don't know why this is surprising to me. It shouldn't be, right?

Christian: Well, it's peculiar because of their skeletal structure.

Ellen: Their shape. They're not shaped like fish.

Christian: Right. They're very unique.

Ellen: Yeah. It's really weird because now that I think of it, they're not shaped like fish, but they're not quite shaped like anything else.

Christian: Yeah. Yeah. So one thing that might help you better associate them with fish is how they do get around, or what their method of locomotion is. They have two small fins, one is along its back and the other one is further down its tail, and they undulate. Maybe like an eel.

Ellen: Okay. Okay. So it ripples sort of?

Christian: Yes. And these are small, these are small little fins. And they're almost transparent, so you have to look really close to see them. That's primarily what they use for locomotion.

Ellen: Wow. I never knew that they had a little fin I didn't know about!

Christian: Yep.

Ellen: They've got a secret fin that they didn't tell me they had.

Christian: Now because of this, they cannot move particularly quickly and they're very prone to being moved by strong currents.

Ellen: Oh no, bye!

Christian: Think I have a propensity to be washed up on the shore with storms.

Ellen: Oh my gosh.

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: I've never heard of that.

Christian: And my next one is their reproduction. So I think a lot of people have heard how with sea horses, the male carries the young.

Ellen: Best dad. Yep.

Christian: Yes. So one of- this is where one of the big differences are between seahorses and sea dragons. So seahorses, when the eggs are transferred to the male, they're in an internal pouch on the male, in their abdomen. Right?

Ellen: Sure. Yeah.

Christian: And then when they give birth, they just kind of come out of that pouch.

Ellen: Yeah.

Christian: With sea dragons, they do not have that pouch. They instead have what's called a brood patch.

Ellen: Brood patch?

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: Okay. I've heard of a brood pouch, but I haven't heard of a brood patch.

Christian: So it's an interesting thing. It's a little spot on the underside of the males' tails that, when when they're ready to reproduce, this area starts to look wrinkled. And so what happens is when they reproduce, the female will release the eggs and then those eggs will fit into little pockets on that brood pouch.

Ellen: Okay.

Christian: And then they get stuck there. The eggs are basically sitting on the outside of the male's body. And in this little brood pouch are blood vessels that supply oxygen to the eggs.

Ellen: Wow.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: Huh. That's crazy.

Christian: Yep.

Ellen: And does he like, carry them around until they hatch or?

Christian: Yes. So in this transfer from the female to male, this is also where the eggs are being fertilized. So the eggs are fertilized, they're attached to the underside of the male, and then four to six weeks later, they hatch.

Ellen: Do all of the members of this family have that sort of mechanic where the female transfers the eggs to the male and the male kind of takes it from there? Cause I know the seahorses do this, I did not know that the sea dragons did it as well.

Christian: Yeah. So I know the leafy sea dragon does this as well as the weedy sea dragon.

Ellen: Okay. That's really interesting cause I think I knew that they were related, but I didn't know that they also had a similar- but that's crazy that they have a similar behavior but it's different mechanically in the way that it works.

Christian: Right.

Ellen: That's really... Crazy, that it's similar but also so different.

Christian: And also I should mention when they do these eggs, the females transfer about 100 to 250 eggs.

Ellen: That's so many.

Christian: And they're pink!

Ellen: Ohh! I thought they couldn't get cuter!

Christian: Yeah. So four to six weeks later, the eggs hatch and the babies are on their own. For the first two or three days, they are supplied nutrients from yolk sacs that they got from the egg, similar to how other animals that are hatched. So eventually those nutrients run out and they have to start basically hunting for very, very small things that can get in their teeny-tiny pipe snoots.

Ellen: So like the, the adult sea dragon is swimming around with essentially like a smoothie straw, right? Big, big thick noodle that they're sucking stuff up through. And then here comes a little baby sea dragon with a little coffee stirrer straw. Just barely sucking up nothing. But you know what? That is a lot like the vampire squid that we talked about last week, how it just kind of sets the little eggs off and then it's like, well best of luck and it's got to live off of its egg yolk until it can survive.

Christian: Yeah. So that being said, not very many survive, but that's kind of the purpose of having that many eggs to try and beat the numbers game. Next point where I consider a deduction for their effectiveness is I'm going to say- I'm going to title it, "No Plan B."

Ellen: Okay.

Christian: Meaning if the camouflage fails, they don't really have anything else. They don't have a defense mechanism or a good way to escape outside of trying to hide again.

Ellen: They literally don't even have teeth.

Christian: No, nothing.

Ellen: Aw, poor babies.

Christian: We don't know of any particular species that like to eat these, but, I mean we know things can eat them.

Ellen: With how skinny and ornamental they are, they don't seem like they would be nutritionally dense. They don't seem like they would be a great meal.

Christian: Yeah. I think I read somewhere that even anemones are known to eat these.

Ellen: Really?

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: How do they do that? How do they catch them?

Christian: I didn't look into it. I just saw them mentioned.

Ellen: Is it the case that like, not a lot of things eat the leafy sea dragons?

Christian: Well it's just, it's not known that like they're a preferred thing for any particular species.

Ellen: Okay. You know what is funny to me? The idea that like, even fish hate salads. Even fish look at a floating bundle of lettuce and they're like, "Mmm. I think not."

Christian: And then my final point is they're pretty fragile. So in addition to only having camouflage and then not being very mobile, they're pretty fragile in terms of could be damaged fairly easily. Divers are actually told not to try to handle them when you're in the same spaces as them.

Ellen: That kind of goes for any animal that you encounter while you're diving. Right? You're not supposed to touch 'em.

Christian: Yeah, but especially with these, because it could...

Ellen: They'll die.

Christian: It could hurt them. So yeah, that's my 8 out of 10 for effectiveness. That camouflage is really the biggest point there because once you see these things, you could see how even for a person you would have a hard time spotting these in the kelp environments and that kind of thing.

Ellen: Yeah. Very, very, very well specialized for that.

Christian: Yep. Ingenuity, I'm gonna do a 6 out of 10. I only had one point for ingenuity, and that's the fact that not only do they look like seaweed, but they also mimic the movement of the seaweed around them.

Ellen: Oh really?

Christian: Yes. So they try to match the swaying of the seaweed around them.

Ellen: Oh my gosh!

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: A third sub theme: motion camouflage.

Christian: Yup.

Ellen: Look at all of these common threads between the dragons!

Christian: And then final one, aesthetics. I'm giving a full 10 out of 10. I'm very impressed with the way they look.

Ellen: They're beautiful.

Christian: Yeah, they're very exotic and elegant and cute and they have very cool colors. I saw a little tidbit, I don't know how verifiable this is, but they seem to enjoy having their picture taken.

Ellen: I can vouch for this, because I have some really good pictures of the leafy sea dragons at the Florida Aquarium.

Christian: Yes!

Ellen: And they are like, posed perfectly. They're like, they're like, aligning perfectly with the background. So you get like a solid background. They have like, tilted and angled themselves in just the perfect way or it makes it very nicely framed picture. So I can personally confirm that, yes. This goes back to, this is a drag sea horse. This is a drag sea horse. It is a model and it is here for the look.

Christian: Excellent. So, time to get into some little miscellaneous information: conservation status is near threatened.

Ellen: Oh no!

Christian: So, a lot of that has to do with their popularity in the private pet trade.

Ellen: Bad.

Christian: So much so that their numbers were so badly affected in the 90s that Australia, uh, Southern Australia have put laws on the books to protect them. So they're very strict. You have to go through a lot of hoops to legally catch them out of the wild. And it's usually a solid, no.

Ellen: Probably not. Probably leave them alone.

Christian: And then, yeah, it's very regulated and usually they're only caught for educational and research purposes. The Monterey Bay Aquarium is one that has them as well as the Florida Aquarium, as you mentioned.

Ellen: Yeah, we love them.

Christian: Yeah. They've also been threatened by pollution, like fertilizer runoff and habitat loss, of course. So that's kind of a recurring theme.

Ellen: Yeah. That's something we get into with pretty much every ocean-dwelling animal.

Christian: Yeah. I want to talk a little bit more about what else distinguishes them from seahorses. So we've already talked about how their reproduction is a little bit different, and the other thing is sea horses can curl their tails and use them to grab onto things. Sea dragons cannot.

Ellen: Yeah, their whole body isn't really made for a whole lot of flexibility.

Christian: Right.

Ellen: Yeah. They're very highly ornamented, and that doesn't really give them a lot of wiggle room to be very flexible.

Christian: Yeah. They went in all in on the camouflage bit.

Ellen: They specked highly into stealth and little into dex. They min-maxed.

Christian: Yeah. And then last little final piece I want to talk about is, I got some information from a 2006 animated short that was created to educate school children and it was made on behalf of several South Australian organizations and it is titled "The Amazing Adventures of Gavin, a Leafy Sea Dragon.

Ellen: Gavin! I love you, Gavin!

Christian: It's this cute little cartoon, it's like 10, 15 minutes long. We follow Gavin, a leafy sea dragon on his journey along the Southern coast of Australia, and he meets other animals like a great white shark, a sea lion, nudibranchs.

Ellen: Oh, I love you Gavin! I love this. We'll have to drop a link to this video on our social media

Christian: Yes, you can find it on YouTube. The leafy sea dragon is the official marine emblem of the state of South Australia.

Ellen: Wow!

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: Excellent choice. So I have this really cool picture of one of the leafy sea dragons in the Florida Aquarium, and I was going through my pictures recently and I came across this picture again. I was like, yes. Awesome. And then I noticed something really weird that I hadn't noticed when I took the picture, that the sea dragon had these two little... Looked like plastic rings around its body. And I was like, "that's weird. What is that?" And so I did a little Googling and I found that these leafy sea dragons had some sort of injury that made them not float so good and they couldn't stay upright and they couldn't like swim correctly. They kept falling over to the sides. So the very, very nice people at the Florida Aquarium made them prosthetic floaties, made them little floaties that they put on the sea dragons to keep them upright and let them keep swimming around.

Christian: How cute.

Ellen: I didn't know that that was what it was, and I took a picture and it's so cute, and they're just good boys that just want to float around! And now they have floaties, Christian, they have floaties! It's so good!

Christian: How nice.

Ellen: Yeah. Top, top notch animal.

Christian: So that's the leafy sea dragon.

Ellen: Excellent. Nicely done.

Christian: Thank you.

Ellen: This was a couple of very good dragons.

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: That brings us to a close. Thank you so much to everybody who has spent this time with us. It means a lot to us that you checked us out, and thank you for recommending us to everybody that you know and annoying everybody with telling them to check out this really cool animal review podcast that you listen to. So thank you for doing that. If you want to hang out with us in the virtual space, you can connect with us on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Just search the title of the show. You'll get there, I promise. We have a really cool group, so get in there. Oh, we did a giveaway, uh, that was going on over the course of the last week and the winner was Abigail Cornett!

Christian: Awesome!

Ellen: Thank you, Abigail. If you have an animal species you want to hear us review, you could submit those to us either on social media or at my email address, which is ellen@justthezooofus.com. A transcript of this episode and all of the rest of them is on www.justthezooofus.com, wrapping up, thank you, Louie Zong for the use of your song "Adventuring" off of your album Bee Sides.

Christian: Yes. Thank you so much.

Ellen: Maybe they should call it Dragon Sides.

Christian: Instead of bees?

Ellen: Yes.

Christian: Ah.

Ellen: I don't- It sounded good in my head. I don't know. Once it came out of my mouth, I knew it didn't. This kills the joke.

Christian: Thanks everyone!

Ellen: Bye!

26: Black Widow & Vampire Squid

Ellen: Hey everybody, this is Ellen Weatherford.

Christian: And this is Christian- (and then that's where it will interrupt with spooky music). That's right y'all. It's just the Boo of Us, Halloween edition.

Ellen: It's time to get spooky.

Christian: We here for it. Hope you are too. Otherwise... You're here anyway.

Ellen: We're not stuck in here with you. You're stuck in here with us.

Christian: Each animal we review on the show, we will rate out of 10 based on three spooky categories.

Ellen: You can't just say spooky in front of everything.

Christian: Okay, fine. Three categories: effectiveness, ingenuity and aesthetics. Bonus category: spookiness.

Ellen: It- Okay. I didn't build that into my notes, but it's okay. We'll do it on the fly.

Christian: Me neither, but we're doing it. We are not zoological experts. We do a lot of research and try our best to make sure we're presenting information from trustworthy resources. Who's first this week, hun?

Ellen: You.

Christian: Me? Okay.

Ellen: Yes.

Christian: What I bring this week to our...

Ellen: Chambers! To our dungeon!!!

Christian: Is the Southern black widow spider.

Ellen: Love her.

Christian: Scientific name: Latrodectus mactans. I chose this particular species just because it's near and dear to us, in our geographical area.

Ellen: In our garage.

Christian: Yeah. Many people are familiar with the term black widow spider, but that actually refers to about 30 some odd different species.

Ellen: Oh wow.

Christian: Yes. This species was submitted to us by What Are You podcast.

Ellen: Yay! That's with Megan and Dylan.

Christian: Hi Megan. Hi Dylan. And my information is coming from UF Entomology and Nematology website, entnemdept.ufl.edu.

Ellen: That was so many dots.

Christian: Lots of dots.

Ellen: They got a Morse code URL.

Christian: Also, Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services found at FDACS.gov, and finally, Animal Diversity Web, found at animaldiversity.org.

Ellen: Represent.

Christian: Yup. So, let's get into it.

Ellen: Yeah. Introduce me to the spidder.

Christian: So for those that have not seen this spider, or maybe you haven't even seen a picture of this spider, a basic description is a shiny black spider with a distinctive red hourglass on the abdomen.

Ellen: It's very ominous and they're very pointy.

Christian: Yeah. Their legs are very, uh, spindly almost. Well, I dunno...

Ellen: Slender.

Christian: Sharp is how I would describe them. Although they're not actually sharp.

Ellen: They look like it though.

Christian: Yeah. So that's the basic description.

Ellen: This is like the iconic spooky spider.

Christian: Yeah, for sure. Let's talk about how big they are. So this is another animal where the size is different based on their sex. So for females they are 3.75 to 5 centimeters long, including their legs, and in imperial that is 1.5 to 2 inches. The bodies themselves are about 1.25 centimeters, or half an inch. Now with males, their bodies are only 0.6 centimeters long, or a quarter inch. So the females are a good double the size of the males.

Ellen: Jeez, she sure is. Big mama.

Christian: This particular species in the US is found in the Southeastern region. The range overlaps with the Northern black widow. Outdoors, this species can be found in wood and rock piles, rodent burrows and hollow tree stumps. Indoors, they can be found in places like outhouses, garages...

Ellen: Mmhmm.

Christian: Yeah, sheds and basements, usually low lying areas. Specifically, in our garage, near the ground, against the wall.

Ellen: Near our lawn mower.

Christian: Mmhmm. They belong to the taxonomic family- and I find this pretty funny about how this is pronounced, I think- Theridiidae.

Ellen: Oh my gosh. It's like, okay, so when I talked about the roly poly, the family name was Armadillidiidae. So this is very similar to that.

Christian: Yeah. They're also known as the tangle web spiders, and it includes over 3000 different species.

Ellen: Woof.

Christian: Let's jump into our first category: effectiveness. These are physical attributes. How good are they at what they do? For the Southern black widow, I'm giving a 7 out of 10. So first up, venom. It contains the neurotoxin alpha latrotoxin. It is said to be 15 times more toxic than a rattlesnake's venom.

Ellen: Whoa.

Christian: Yes. In humans, the symptoms of a bite starts one to three hours after the bite, and include: intense pain, rigid abdominal muscles, muscle cramping, malaise- which, this is a new word, I didn't know this word before, it means general discomfort whose source is hard to identify...

Ellen: It comes from the French word.

Christian: Oh yeah? What's the French word?

Ellen: It means, like, sickness.

Christian: Oh, okay. Sweating, nausea, vomiting and hypertension. And for those that aren't familiar, hypertension means an increase in blood pressure. Left untreated, those symptoms last three to five days. But, if you were to go to a hospital for this and you were having a severe enough reaction, calcium gluconate and/or antivenom may relieve or counteract those symptoms within 24 hours.

Ellen: Oh, okay. So this is very treatable, it sounds like.

Christian: Yes. My next point, human fatalities are very rare. One study says that between 2000 and 2006, a total of 23,409 bites from black widow species were reported in 47 States in the United States. So of all those bites, none were fatalities.

Ellen: Wow!

Christian: None.

Ellen: Okay, so they're maybe not as deadly as they're painted out to be. For humans, at least.

Christian: Well, especially not nowadays. So, first of all, the title of that study was "A US Perspective of Symptomatic Latrodectus [species pluralis] (meaning the Latrodectus, all of it species, so that's all the black widows) Envenomation and Treatment: A National Poison Data System Review," the author of that is Andrew A. Monte, MD, Becki Bucher-Bartelson, PhD, and Kennon J Heard, MD. That was published in 2011, and they got their data from the National Poison Data System.

Ellen: Good robust information.

Christian: Yes. So from a medical perspective, it's mostly small children, those with other immunity problems going on, that kind of thing that are most at risk of having a fatal reaction to to this bite.

Ellen: That makes sense.

Christian: Yep.

Ellen: And also they are kind of a metropolitan animal, right? Like they're okay with living in like, populated areas.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: So even if they do bite somebody, it's likely that you're not going to be like, a hundred miles away from the nearest hospital or something. Right? Like if you do develop symptoms, treatment is accessible.

Christian: Yup. And it seems like using antivenom is a pretty rare thing that is needed. It's usually only done when there's a very severe reaction.

Ellen: Do they use this venom as self-defense? Do they use it to kill their prey? Like, what is it- what is the venom for?

Christian: It's used to kill their prey.

Ellen: Oh, okay.

Christian: Yes. And then I'll talk about more in the ingenuity part as to why it becomes used on things like humans. So, the next thing on my effectiveness score is on the silk. I just think spider silk in general is very interesting.

Ellen: I'm just now realizing this is the first spider we've talked about.

Christian: Yep. So lots of spiders have silk, what they make their webs out of. I just think that's an interesting characteristic of spiders in general. You know, they use it to catch prey, to suspend egg sacks, that sort of thing. And speaking of egg sacks, my final thing for effectiveness is they have so many babies. Around 220 eggs in a single egg sack.

Ellen: That's so many.

Christian: It's a lot.

Ellen: That's a lot of babies. So are these like the type of spiders that carry their babies on their backs?

Christian: No.

Ellen: Okay, good. Thank God.

Christian: So they create an egg sack, put their eggs in there, and then they'll suspend it in their web usually.

Ellen: Okay.

Christian: I'm betting we might see one of those if we go into our garage.

Ellen: It's probably out there right now, yeah.

Christian: So yeah, that's what it does there. I mean obviously, it's one of those have as many babies as you can cause it's not very likely many of them will survive.

Ellen: I know, they're just little spiders.

Christian: And part of that is because of cannibalism, but...

Ellen: Oh, all right. We're back in praying mantis territory.

Christian: I think this is a common thing amongst bugs, insects and arachnids.

Ellen: Is this another femme fatale situation where the females eat the males after they mate?.

Christian: So that has to do with its namesake. I'm going to save that for the end.

Ellen: Okay.

Christian: That's my 7 out of 10 for effectiveness. I'm moving on to ingenuity. So this is where they do smart things, maybe hunting methods or tool use, that sort of thing. Being a spider, I'm going to give it a 4 out of 10 for ingenuity.

Ellen: Yeah...

Christian: This species of black widow, they make their webs without any kind of pattern. So a lot of the times when you think of a spiderweb, you think of kind of like a concentric circle type thing.

Ellen: Yeah. It's like radiating out from a point.

Christian: Yes. So lots of spiders do that. Black widows do not.

Ellen: Oh, is this where they get the name tangle web? Is that where the family "tangle web" comes from?

Christian: Yeah. Yeah. So, if you were to look at it overall, it would almost look like a, almost like a funnel type of shape, but it doesn't have any kind of distinguishable pattern. However, studies show that specimens with limited food resources will build more effective webs than spiders with at abundant food supply.

Ellen: What does that mean?

Christian: That means they're like, "Aw man, I'm not getting enough food. I better make a better web."

Ellen: Oh, interesting.

Christian: Right?

Ellen: They're kind of optimizing. They're like, well- that's really funny to me because that means that like, when they have access to a lot of food, they're like, "this is fine. Just just throw some silk up there. It's not that big a deal."

Christian: I mean, don't fix what's not broke, right?

Ellen: They're like, "I don't have to put that much effort into this." They're like the underachiever spider.

Christian: Yeah, yeah. So, and then my next and final thing for ingenuity is they actually have a very timid nature.

Ellen: Really?

Christian: Yeah. They will usually run away when confronted with something. They usually only bite something the size of a person if they're trapped between it and something else. So that could mean being sat on, being like- the person is grabbing something and there is a spider there...

Ellen: That doesn't make me feel good, because of this one time...

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: I used to work at PetSmart. I worked there for like two years, and one time it was the end of my shift, I had been on like a 10 hour shift and an important part of the job that I did very frequently was scooping crickets out of the cricket bin. If you've ever been in like, a PetSmart or a similar pet store where they sell crickets, they have them in a huge bin that's usually full of like egg crates and stuff for the crickets to hide in and stuff. So all day long I'd been reaching in there and scooping up crickets and bagging them up for people, and this is not something that you do with gloves on. You just do it because it's just, if you had to be like putting on gloves every single time you did this, you'd be wasting a lot of time and it would get really annoying. So you don't do this with gloves on, you just reach right in and grab it. Well, it was the end of my shift, it was probably like 8:30 at night and I had been doing this all day long and this customer saw me reaching in there and was like, "Whoa, hold on!" And I was like, "what?" And he was like, "that's a black widow, right there in the bin." And I looked and sure enough, it had the red hourglass on its back and it was sitting right on top of the crickets and I had been reaching in that bin all day long.

Christian: Wow!

Ellen: Yeah. And so he was like, "there's a black widow in there." And I freaked out and I, and like I didn't know what to do, so I went and got the manager. I think the manager just like got the spider out and sent it away. But I just felt so like, panicked that I had been reaching in there all day long with bare hands, inches away from a black widow.

Christian: Yeah. I mean, that was probably a big buffet for that spider.

Ellen: Yeah. So apparently that's actually really common. It's really common for spiders to get stuck in shipments of crickets, but the black widow just happened to be the one that was in there.

Christian: Wow.

Ellen: It freaked me out so bad. Happy Halloween!

Christian: So, one of the reasons that spider bites by the black widow have decreased over the decades is with the invention of indoor plumbing. I say this because one of the popular places for people to get bit by a black widow was in outhouses.

Ellen: ...Oh no!

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: Oh, gross.

Christian: Because they would hang out around the seat part of it...

Ellen: [gasp]

Christian: Yeah... Yeah.

Ellen: That is the worst scary story. This is our campfire scary story. I'm terrified right now.

Christian: But maybe check under your indoor toilet too.

Ellen: Stop it! You're the worst!

Christian: So moving onto aesthetics, how pretty is it? Or you know, aesthetically pleasing.

Ellen: Yes.

Christian: I'm giving a 9 out of 10.

Ellen: It's a beautiful spider.

Christian: Yes. So first of all, the glossy black look.

Ellen: Excellent.

Christian: Yeah, it's pretty interesting. It's kinda almost alien-like, to me. Interesting little thing to go back to how they differ between the sexes, so males actually lack the hourglass but may still have small red dots on the top or bottom of their abdomen.

Ellen: Are the males venomous as well?

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: Oh, that's not great. I don't like that you can't tell that they're black widows as easily, but they will still mess you up.

Christian: What I do is I just assume all spiders are potentially harmful

Ellen: Which is not to say- don't just kill every spider you see. Just like, scoop it up into a cup and put it outside, but also don't touch it.

Christian: Don't like, cuddle it with your face or anything. Um, spiderlings, which is what they call a little- the little spider...

Ellen: I never knew that! A spiderling!

Christian: The spiderlings are initially white, without the hourglass or spots. They progressively gain coloration and patterns with every molt.

Ellen: All right, thanks for the new gamer tag. Spiderling. I like that. That's so adorable.

Christian: Yeah, so 9 out of 10 aesthetics.

Ellen: Very good.

Christian: Spooky rating: uhhhh, probably 10 on 10. Funny story that I'm just now remembering, back when I was working on my bachelor's for computer science, I had this one class where we were learning how to program things for mobile devices. There was this one unit where I think it was an iPhone application, we were just learning how to do some things and it involved having like, a character you could drag with your finger and then when it runs into a different character or something happens. So what I did, I made that first character a big black widow spider, and then the second one, like a bird or something, and then when you drag the black widow spider to the bird, the bird disappears.

Ellen: What!

Christian: I don't know why I chose those things.

Ellen: That doesn't make a lot of sense.

Christian: It doesn't, but I learned... Something, I think.

Ellen: was the implication in your mind that the spider bit the bird and the bird died of the venom?

Christian: Well, also the scale was such that the spider was bigger than the bird.

Ellen: Here's my thought for our next D&D session: giant black widow spider. End of prompt.

Christian: Okay. So yeah, spook, 10 out of 10. Miscellaneous info about the black widow. So, their conservation status is no special status.

Ellen: Sure.

Christian: Makes sense. I don't think they're in any kind of trouble. Their namesake came from the belief that females kill and eat males after mating.

Ellen: Is this an accurate belief?

Christian: Not entirely. So that particular behavior was mostly observed in lab conditions with crowded enclosures. So it's thought that that act had more to do with the males not being able to get away than the desire of the black widow female to eat the males.

Ellen: Oh. So it was just kind of an opportunity thing. She just kind of saw the chance and she took it. You go, girl,

Christian: So it's thought in the wild, you know, the male would be able to get away. So that's the Southern black widow spider.

Ellen: Awesome. What a good spider. I have a new appreciation for our little roomy. For our little roommate in the garage.

Christian: Also side note, you know, they're beneficial because of all the bugs they eat.

Ellen: That is so true, and the reason why we have decided to make peace with the black widow that lives in our garage.

Christian: Yeah!

Ellen: So we came home and gosh, when was it that we saw that spider? We had like, I think we had just come home from our trip to Atlanta, and I was upstairs doing something and you were downstairs, I think you'd just come in from like, mowing the yard or something and you sent me a picture from the garage of this black widow spider and I could tell that it was inside of our garage and I was like, well, I didn't want to see that. I didn't want to know about that. But now I do, and I just have to be aware of that.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: But I mean, it seems like she stays in the garage and doesn't really bother anybody.

Christian: It's true. She hangs out by the garbage cans.

Ellen: Yeah. She's just kind of minding her own business and we leave her alone. She leaves us alone, and so that seems to be working out well for us so far. More than I can say for that wolf spider that got in our house. Do you remember that?

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: This wolf spider got in and I saw it while I was- I was taking a shower!

Christian: Just like a movie.

Ellen: And I saw the spider up on the window inside the shower and I was like, "you know what, you kill bugs. I think I'm going to let you stay, but you're on thin ice, pal." And like we kind of had a little treaty. We had a peaceful truce where I just was like, okay, you do your thing, you keep the bugs in check, I'll let you live in my house. That's no big deal. And then like probably six hours later I was brushing my teeth, I think, in the bathroom and then I felt something that felt like a piece of hair on my arm because I shed a lot, and I went to go brush it off and it was that exact spider on my arm and I was like, you have betrayed me. You have betrayed my trust. How dare you. And then I had to come get you to help me put him outside.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: Black widow spider? She's okay. She can hang out. She can hang. We're okay with her.

Christian: As long as she stays there.

Ellen: She stays in the garage, and that's kind of her house. The garage belongs to her now. Um, before we move on to my segment, real quick shout out to our Patreon. We have some cool stuff on there, feed of the show with no ads. Cool stuff. Go check it out if you want to help us grow, for this week, thank you to our patrons, Briana Feinberg, Krystina Sanders, and the Jungle Gym Queen. Thanks y'all.

Christian: Thank you!

Christian: So Ellen, what do you have for us this spooky evening? (It's like 11 in the morning.)

Ellen: Well for this week, I have a very festively named friend. This is the vampire squid.

Christian: Ooooh!

Ellen: [poorly imitates sound of thunder] That's thunder crashing in the background, and imagine that there's a storm and lightning and stuff. Now, the vampire squid, scientific name Vampyroteuthis infernalis. This species was submitted by our buddies over at Spooky Spouses, which is a very delightful and perfect for the season little podcast done by Jordan and Lindsey Reed, it's really great, go check them out. They requested the vampire squid.

Christian: Thanks y'all.

Ellen: And also the jungle gym queen who is our buddy.

Christian: Thank you, thank you.

Ellen: Yes. Thank you to all of you who suggested this awesome animal. I'm getting all of my information on this animal from the Monterey Bay Aquarium Research Institute.

Christian: Ooh!

Ellen: Yes. They have kind of been the champions of vampire squid research. They have done like pretty much all of the research on this animal. They have done remote-operated vehicle dives, like where they've sent basically little like exploring robots into the ocean down into where the vampire squid lives. They had over 24 hours of footage from over 200 vampire squid encounters.

Christian: Wow!

Ellen: Yeah. Which is really something considering where they live. So to introduce you to the vampire squid, this is actually not a very big squid. Its total size of the whole body is about a foot long, or 30 centimeters. It's about the size and also the shape of a football. It's not that big. Also, males are smaller than the females.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: Yeah. Just like the black widow.

Christian: A theme.

Ellen: So if you've never seen this squid, please look it up. It's so... Delightful. It looks like a squid with a sort of conical, tapered mantle at one end. The mantle being the part of the squid where all of the internal organs are. So if you're thinking of a squid in two parts, there's the arms on one end and the mantle on the other.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: So the arms are coming out of the mantle. So it has a conical tapered mantle at one end and then eight arms sticking out of the bottom. But the arms are webbed.

Christian: Yeah...

Ellen: So there's webbing in between the arms, which is not the way most other squids look. This gives it a look that is similar to a cloak or a bat's wing, which is where they get the name vampire from.

Christian: Gotcha.

Ellen: I feel like the webbing around the body makes it kind of look like it's wearing a skirt. That's what I think. Cause it's all the way around. Right? It's not just like, partial.

Christian: Sure, sure.

Ellen: So I think it looks like a skirt. It also has huge round eyes and two flappy fins above its eyes that look kinda like big giant Dumbo ears.

Christian: Aww!

Ellen: Yeah. You will find these all over the world in deep water between 300 and 4000 feet.

Christian: That's quite the range.

Ellen: Yeah. But typically the deeper the better. That is also between 90 and 1200 meters. You'll usually find them very, very deep though. Their taxonomic order is called Vampyromorphida. The vampire squid is not actually a squid. I'm sorry.

Christian: Whaaaat?

Ellen: It's not a squid. It is a cephalopod...

Christian: Okay...

Ellen: But it is not technically a squid. This species, the vampire squid is the only surviving member of not just its genus, not just its family, but its order.

Christian: Wow.

Ellen: The only one. Squids and cuttlefish are also cephalopods.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: This species first appeared around 300 million years ago, and it has changed very little since then.

Christian: I guess, again with that, if it's not broke.

Ellen: Yeah. So this is why you'll see a lot of people refer to them as a living fossil.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: Uh, for effectiveness, I'm giving the vampire squid a full 10 out of 10.

Christian: Wow!

Ellen: Yes. So I want you to think back to our episode on the Arabian camel. For the Arabian camel, I also gave them a 10 out of 10 for the adaptations that they had that allowed it to survive in extremely hostile environments. This is that. That was my reasoning for this full 10 out of 10. The vampire squid is extremely well suited to live in a very uninviting part of the world. So to explain that, first I'm going to explain how and what it eats.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: So the vampire squid looks like a predator, and in fact the other squids and octopuses and stuff like that, they are predators. But the vampire squid is a detritovore. The way that they eat is they drift passively through the water. They kind of flutter their little fins a little bit, but for the most part they're just drifting. They're not really swimming actively. So they passively drift through the open water with their arms spread out like a net and they drag behind them a very, very long, very, very thin curly filament. So it looks like a giant piece of string trailing out behind them. They just kind of let it trail behind them as they swim around. Now this filament is covered in these tiny little microscopic hairs, and it also has sensory nerves in it. So the hairs gather these little bits of what's called "marine snow." Marine snow is just bits of debris floating through the water that consist of waste and remains of other sea life. So they're not actually eating animals, they're eating the remains and waste of other animals.

Christian: Huh.

Ellen: So they're basically just the little trash collectors of the ocean. Yeah, so once the filament has gathered enough little tasty snacks, the vampire squid closes up its arms and reels in the filament and pulls it back in and it pulls it between the arms and the arms scrape off the little yummy bits that it's collected on the filament. And then once it's scraped them all off of the filament, it deposits them into its mouth.

Christian: Wow.

Ellen: So on the inside of those arms, so from the outside it looks kind of like an umbrella, but on the inside all eight arms are lined with what looked like spikes. Pointy spikes.

Christian: Right.

Ellen: And they look very menacing. They look like very sharp teeth, but those are actually soft and fleshy structures that are called cirri. I think that they're very similar in structure and texture to the spiky silicone jewelry that was very popular in the late nineties and early aughts.

Christian: Okay...

Ellen: Do you know what I'm talking about?

Christian: I think so?

Ellen: It was like, every like preteen girl had these little earrings that was like a ball with these soft silicone spikes on it. Do you remember this?

Christian: I think so.

Ellen: This is what it makes me think of when I see their little cirri on the insides of their arms. It's very much like that. So the cirri are actually what the vampire squid uses to pull the food into its mouth. So they actually have two filaments.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: And they have one extended at a time, and there's a pouch on the inside of the arms that stores the filament.

Christian: Huh.

Ellen: Yeah. So the cirri pull the food inside the mouth.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: Now all of this, the diet of the vampire squid, was only known after observations in the wild by the Monterey Bay Aquarium Research Institute in 2012.

Christian: Wow.

Ellen: Before 2012, everybody thought that they just ate like, little shrimp and stuff like every other squid. Not so. It wasn't until just a few years ago that they found out what they actually eat.

Christian: Hmm. Crazy.

Ellen: Yeah. I know! This goes back to that thing that we talked about how we know more about the moon than about the deep sea.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: We're like, still learning about stuff that- animals that we've known about for like, a hundred years, and we just had no idea of what they ate.

Christian: Huh.

Ellen: Yeah. I thought that was really cool. So to tie that back into their effectiveness score, that very passive lifestyle of just drifting slowly through the water, that requires very little energy output. This is due to the fact that their bodies are actually neutrally buoyant like we talked about with the blobfish.

Christian: Yeah!

Ellen: So they don't have to spend any energy to drift through the water like that. They're just chilling, like letting the food come to them. They have this really, really slow metabolism and that combined with a very large gill surface area, and also a specialized type of blood. They have this specialized protein in their blood called hemocyanin. Hemocyanin is kind of analogous to hemoglobin that we have in our blood, except hemocyanin is based on copper instead of iron and it is blue instead of red. All you really need to know for this purpose is that it binds to oxygen much better at lower temperatures than hemoglobin, I won't go any further into the chemistry of all this because it's very complicated and confusing. Basically what you need to know is that they have this blue blood that makes them really, really good at passing oxygen through their body in low temperatures. So all of these adaptations allow them to survive in a part of the ocean called the oxygen minimal layer, and this is a part of the ocean that is so deep that there is as little as 5% or less oxygen saturation in the water. Little to no light, and there's also very, very, very little oxygen and they can live there just fine because they have all of these crazy adaptations that let them live on basically nothing.

Christian: That's awesome.

Ellen: It's so crazy isn't it? This part of the ocean is so cold and so low in oxygen that very few other animals are able to survive there, especially not anything that would be big enough to eat the vampire squid.

Christian: Ah.

Ellen: So like the things that do live down there are so tiny, right? They're like little microscopic like plankton and stuff. Nothing that lives there is going to be able to eat- not nothing, but like, so little that lives there is going to actually be able to eat the vampire squid, so they don't actually have to worry about predators at those depths.

Christian: Wow.

Ellen: So this was what I talked about with the camel. Right? They don't have to defend themselves because nothing's hunting them where they live. They just live where nothing else can survive, and they don't have to worry about fighting predators or anything.

Christian: Solid strat.

Ellen: Yes. It's very good. That being said, there's also very little prey found at these depths, like you know, yeah there's no predators but there is no prey either. But that's okay because they don't need prey! They eat detritus, they eat debris that falls from, you know, up the water column. Like, stuff from up above them falls down to where they are and it's okay. They don't need prey. They just swim around down at the bottom of the ocean and eat what falls down there. And they don't have to worry about anything.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: Yeah. I thought that was really cool. Now that's not to say that they don't have any defense mechanisms, because they do. They can defend themselves. They can. One of the standard like, defense strategies of other cephalopods like squids and octopus and stuff like that is two things: they will like, rapidly change their colors either to camouflage themselves or to start all the enemy, or they will shoot out an ink blob. You know, like an ink cloud to obscure themselves and then they'll get away. Now since this is a deep sea environment with little to no light, so you can't see anything, the vampire squid kind of skipped those things because they're not going to help them at all.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: Like if you're in the bottom of the ocean where there's no light changing, your color isn't going to help because nobody can see you anyway, and shooting out a black cloud isn't gonna help cause everything's black. Like that's not going to obscure you at all. It's not going to help. So, what the vampire squid has instead is bioluminescence.

Christian: Really!

Ellen: Yes, they have some firework... They have some fireworks at their disposal instead. So the vampire squid's arms and mantle are equipped with light-producing organs, especially in the tips of the arms. And these organs allow the vampire squid to glow, as well as fire off clouds of glowing particles.

Christian: Woah!

Ellen: Yes. From the tips of its arms where it will actually like expel bioluminescence into the air and make this kind of fireworks display.

Christian: That's crazy.

Ellen: It is! It's very, very cool. The last thing I gave it for effectiveness was the fact that they have these really, really big round eyes that allow it to absorb as much light as possible down in the deep sea. This is like a common thing for deep sea creatures. I saw some sources say that that in proportion to the rest of its body, the vampire squid has the largest eyes in the animal kingdom, but then I saw some other sources say that there are like some tiny microscopic creatures whose eyes make up like a third of their body. And this is clearly not that. So, I don't know if it's like the largest in the animal kingdom, but they're definitely up there.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: Very, very big eyes considering the size of their body. So that's my 10 out of 10 for effectiveness. This is like a hyper specialized animal.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: So for ingenuity, I'm giving it a 6 out of 10. Okay.... It's okay. So, going back to its sort of escape strategy of using bioluminescence, they have this other thing that they do when they're threatened that they're known for. So they pull their arms up over the top of their head and they flip their body inside out. So they're exposing those spiky cirri outward. And this is called the pineapple posture, cause they look like a pineapple floating through the water.

Christian: I like that.

Ellen: It can look very scary! Like, it protects their mantle because they're shielding it with their web, but also it looks spooky.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: It looks very, very scary. So it can look very intimidating and it can cause some predators to be like, "Oh my God, what is that?" And then they leave it alone. They will pineapple posture, it looks very scary and intimidating, but what they will also do when they're intimidated is they can flash their arms, they can do like pulsing displays of light, and then they shoot out their glowing cloud and then they use jet propulsion to swim away very quickly.

Christian: Okay. So they do have the ability to swim quickly, then.

Ellen: They can swim very quickly in very small amounts.

Christian: Right.

Ellen: In very small bursts. They can shoot a jet of water out of their mantle and it'll get them as far as they need to get. They can't do it for very long, but they can in very small bursts. It takes a lot of energy to do that, so they don't, they try to only do it when they really have to.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: But they can. They have it. They have the capacity for it. So yeah, the vampire squid can control its luminosity, producing dimmer or brighter lights depending on the intensity of the threat. So they showed videos that the researchers took of like, them handling the squid in different amounts, and they found that the more the handled it, the more intensely they handled it, the brighter it would glow.

Christian: Ah.

Ellen: So it can actually control the intensity of its light. This actually is a major plot point of an episode of the Octonauts.

Christian: Really?

Ellen: For parents or, I suppose, just cartoon appreciators out there, there is a delightful cartoon on Netflix. I'm sure you can find it elsewhere, but we watch it on Netflix. It's called the Octonauts, and it's about this little crew of animals that just explore the ocean and help animals in the ocean- not just the ocean, but they help aquatic animals, like they rescue them and solve problems for them and stuff. And in one episode they find a vampire squid, and the vampire squid I guess like... Is injured and they have to help it, but then when they come up to it it gets scared and it like shoots off its glowing cloud and swims away. So, Octonauts is a very good show. You can learn a lot about like, aquatic life from that show. But as just like the quickest aside I can possibly make: a mistake in this episode has been listed on the IMDB page stating, "in the first few shots of Peso," which is I think the penguin, I think Peso's the penguin on the show, "he is in his deep sea suit, but in one shot he doesn't have his deep sea suit on. For the rest of the episode he is wearing his deep suit." And I saw that because I was looking up this episode on IMDB and I saw that this mistake was listed on there and it just... I was so filled with the light that there's somebody out there calling out the Octonauts on their continuity errors. It was like, first of all, who cares that much? First of all, who noticed it, and second of all, who felt so strongly about it that they had to take to the IMDB page of Octonauts and like publicly call out this episode for their inattention to detail? I don't know. I just really thought that was funny.

Christian: That's funny.

Ellen: So I took off some deductions for their ingenuity. The first deduction I took off was that since they are, like detritivores and they're literally just drifting through the water and the food is just coming to them, they're not hunting or foraging or anything, right? They're not like figuring things out.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: They're literally just, it's kinda like they're just swimming through the water with their mouth wide open and hoping food lands in it. Right? That that doesn't take a lot of smarts. And I also took off a deduction because vampire squids don't guard their eggs or their young in any way. They just fire the eggs off into the open water and set them adrift.

Christian: Good luck! Byeee!

Ellen: That's literally what it is. Like, hope this works out for ya! See you later. And the young are just kind of left to fend for themselves. I guess where they live, there's not so many predators, so I guess that's okay, I guess? But still.

Christian: Yeah... I mean, unless maybe they are able to float to a different level of the ocean?

Ellen: They're not, they just float. They just drift.

Christian: What if other vampire squids accidentally eat them?

Ellen: Yeah. So they're bad parents. They're very, very bad parents. Only slightly better than the quokka, because they don't actively murder their children. So that's the end of my 6 out of 10 for ingenuity. Moving on to aesthetics for the vampire squid, I give them an 8 out of 10. I find them a little bit cartoonish. They have those big Dumbo ears like I mentioned earlier, those big round eyes, and what is essentially a giant hoop skirt. I think they're cute. Oh, and so the, the scientific name Vampyroteuthis infernalis literally translates to "vampire squid from hell," and I feel like that's completely unwarranted. Like I get that, like when they're turned inside out and they have all the spikes, if you think those are like spiky teeth, then yeah, that can look really terrifying. But I don't get it, at all. I don't, I don't get why they got such a menacing name.

Christian: I mean, I guess the first person that saw it might not have had a chance to actually feel the spikes.

Ellen: True. They may have just thought, "Oh my God, it's full of teeth." Like, get me out of here.

Christian: Did you happen to note when this was discovered?

Ellen: It was about a hundred years ago. I don't have an exact date, but it was about a hundred years ago.

Christian: Huh.

Ellen: So yeah, I guess if we're giving them spooky ratings, I'm actually going to give the vampire squid like a 3 out of 10 spooky. It's not spooky at all!

Christian: Okay, but if I were in the deep, deep ocean, and I came across this thing in pineapple mode...

Ellen: If we're- okay, if we're comparing it to other deep sea creatures, 0 out of 10. This is like the least spooky thing you could encounter deep in the ocean.

Christian: Okay, fine.

Ellen: There's- okay. Soft boi. Very soft. They have like almost like a jellyfish-like texture to their body, right? So, soft boi, a gentle glow to them, big dumbo ears... They won't do anything! They're completely harmless. They don't even have teeth. Way up inside of their mantle, like in the middle of, like hidden by all their arms and stuff. They have a little beak, but it's like interior. They cannot do anything to you! Like if I was at the bottom of the ocean and I came across a vampire squid, it would be a real breath of fresh air. I would be delighted to see one.

Christian: But because you know what it does and is, I feel like if you didn't know what it was, you would probably safely assume... nah.

Ellen: Yeah, that's true. I guess if I had never seen one before and this was my complete like, flying blind and I saw one of these, it would probably be a little terrifying, but...

Christian: You would think, "that thing wants all of my blood."

Ellen: Hence the name vampire squid. Yeah, but knowing what I know about it, I give a... What did I say before? Did I say 3?

Ellen: You said 3, and then 0.

Ellen: I'll split the difference. I'll say like a 2 out of 10. It's a 2 out of 10 spooky. This is not spooky at all. So wrapping up with some miscellaneous information, their conservation status is not evaluated. Like other deep sea creatures, they are threatened by changes in ocean temperatures and also acidity and declining oxygen levels. So all of those things naturally affect everything in the ocean, including vampire squids, even though their population numbers haven't been observed well enough to have a good idea where they're at as a species. And my last note that I want to include is that the only vampire squid to have ever been displayed in captivity was at the Monterey Bay Aquarium in May of 2014. They had a vampire squid on exhibit.

Christian: What happened to it?

Ellen: Not good. So they had it in May of 2014, it went out on exhibit, they, you know, said publicly that it was a rotating exhibit and they also said in their press release like... Like all deep sea creatures, they're very fragile and it, they basically were like, "Hey, it's not going to be here for long. Come check it out while you can." And they had it on an exhibit briefly, it wasn't doing very well so they took it off exhibit, and then I saw another thing from them saying that they put it back out for display again in August of 2014 which was a few months later. But then that was, that was it. I couldn't find anything else about it. I dug in to see if I could find anything about like, any updates on what happened to it, but I'm assuming it just died.

Christian: And now it haunts Monterey Bay Aquarium...

Ellen: The ghost of the vampire squid!

Christian: Just kind of ghosting around like, "Hey! You gonna eat that trash?"

Ellen: DON'T TOUCH MY TRASH! That's kind of the way it goes for any sort of deep sea creature. I feel like deep sea creatures, especially since the part of the ocean where the vampire squid lives is so low in oxygen, it's gotta be really hard to maintain an accurate simulation of that environment. So it's probably just not very good for them to be in captivity at all.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: But I mean they've got a lot, they've done a lot of really cool research on them and that was just the only time that one has ever been displayed in captivity. I wish I had had the chance to see it while it was there. But this is, this goes back to like, the great white shark. How like nobody's ever been able to like maintain one in captivity. It's probably best we just leave them alone, really.

Christian: Yeah. And people have tried, but you know it doesn't last very long.

Ellen: Yeah. Should probably just leave them alone then. Right? Like, maybe we can just let them do their thing. So yeah, that's the vampire squid. My new not-so-spooky friend.

Christian: Well thank you. I still maintain, though, that if one that would run into one of these and didn't know what it was or does, would probably be thoroughly spooked. All right, listeners, we've got a trick-or-treat special for you.

Ellen: This is both a trick and a treat.

Christian: Yes. So recently in the comments on a post in the Facebook group...

Ellen: Plug it.

Christian: Just the Zoo of Us... Special Friends...

Ellen: Nope.

Ellen: And more...

Ellen: Nope.

Christian: Just the Zoo of Us: Official Friend Squad.

Ellen: Thank you.

Christian: So in those comments, I volunteered to write a poem about the botfly. Not only was this not asked for, it was stated it was not wanted, specifically. I did it anyway, and it seemed to be well-received. It goes like this:

Eggs on a mosquito,
A bite on the arm
Larvae so snug
Prepare for alarm
You have a new pet
It lies mostly still
Say hello to the bot fly
Your very own flesh drill.

Ellen: Happy Halloweeeeeeen! Well, happy Halloween everybody, and thank you so much for spending this time with us.

Christian: Yes, thank you.

Ellen: We love y'all, and thank you especially to people who have been recommending us to your friends and giving us reviews on all of the various podcast resources out there. We really appreciate that. That means a lot to us. It's very cool of you.

Christian: Yes. Thank you so much.

Ellen: Very punk rock. Thank you. You can connect with us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram by searching the title of the show. Hey! Do that right now because we're having a giveaway, like right now. If you're listening to this before Saturday, November 2nd of 2019, head over to our social media because we're giving away a Final Straw, which is a metal collapsible reusable straw, and it is in rainbow, and also 2 decomposition books, which are spiral bound notebooks that are made out of recycled material and they have really, really cool designs on the covers. One of them is a jaguar and the other one is the Florida Everglades. So we're giving those away right now, so go check out our social media if you have not done that already, they're very cool. If you have an animal species that you want to hear us review, you can submit those to us at ellen@justthezooofus.com, or just kind of scream them into the void. I'm sure we'll get them. A transcript of this episode and others will be found at justthezooofus.com, and last note before we fade into the abyss is thank you to Louie Zong for the use of his song "Adventuring" from his album, Bee Sides.

Christian: Yes. Thank you. Should we use a spooky song instead this time?

Ellen: Well, I've already credited it, so no. But you know what we can do is we can just make ghosts sounds as we fade into the background. Wooooo~

Christian: ~Give me your traaash~.

Ellen: Bye!

Christian: Bye y'all.

25: Capybara & Gaboon Viper

Ellen: Hey everybody, this is Ellen Weatherford.

Christian: And Christian Weatherford.

Ellen: And this is Just the Zoo of Us, your favorite animal review podcast where we take your favorite animal every week and we rate and review them out of 10 in the categories of effectiveness, ingenuity, and aesthetics.

Christian: We are not zoological experts. Anything we say can and will be used against us in a court of law.

Ellen: We're not experts, but we do a lot of research to get ready for the show and we make sure that we're giving you information from super good and reliable sources.

Christian: Who's up first this week?

Ellen: Me. I am.

Christian: All right, so what do you got for us, Ellen?

Ellen: This is the capybara.

Christian: Yay!

Ellen: Capybara, scientific name Hydrochoerus hydrochaerus.

Christian: Woah.

Ellen: I know, it's one of those, it's a little bit repetitive in the species name. It has an "a," where in the genus name it has an "o." So this species has only been technically requested one time, and it was like a billion years ago, and it was by Morgan Maher. Thank you. Morgan.

Christian: Yes, thank you.

Ellen: I'm getting my information on this animal from the Jacksonville Zoo, the San Diego Zoo, National Geographic, and some other sources that I'll cite when they come up.

Christian: All right.

Ellen: So to introduce you to my friend, the capybara: This is the world's largest rodent and it's an absolute unit. This is a big boy. Their adult size is typically up to 2 feet, or 60 centimeters tall, and up to 140 pounds, or 64 kilograms.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: Yeah. They're dense little dudes, right? They're only two feet tall, but 140 pounds. That's like...

Christian: A small person.

Ellen: It is. It's about the, it's about the weight of a person. They're chunky little dudes. They're heavy for the size that they are.

Christian: But they still swim, right?

Ellen: They do swim. Don't worry, I'll get there. So yeah, this is the largest rodent on earth, and you can kind of see in their face that they kind of have that rodent sort of face. They have the face that a lot of people compare it to a beaver. It's very rectangular. When you see them inside profile, it's almost a perfect rectangle. That nose is like a very blunt sort of, straight down nose, so you can see it in the face. This is a mammal with wirey brown fur, they have small round ears on the very top of their head. You can find these big boys in Central and South America in riverbanks and marshes. So they're semi-aquatic. They spend most of their time chilling out in the water, but they do have to come out on land.

Christian: I am surprised to hear they're in central America. I guess I purely thought of them as being like Amazon rainforest type thing.

Ellen: You can find them in southern parts of Central America.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: Yeah. Basically in any sort of tropical rain forest area that has a lot of standing water.

Christian: Gotcha.

Ellen: They can kind of make themselves at home there. Their taxonomic family is called Cavidae. This is the cavy family. Do you know what a cavy is?

Christian: No.

Ellen: So a cavy is a type of rodent that includes guinea pigs, and other rodents known as cavies include maras. But the thing that we would be most familiar with from this family would be a guinea pig.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: So you can kind of see that in their face and in their feet also. When you look at them, they have the same kind of feet that a Guinea pig have that has the four toes pointing forward in the front, and then three toes on the back.

Christian: What...?

Ellen: Yeah. If you've ever looked really close at it, Guinea pigs pause like their front feet have four toes. Their back feet have three toes.

Christian: Oh! Okay.

Ellen: What are you thinking of?

Christian: I misinterpreted what you said. I was imagining one foot, with four toes on the front and then three foot- three toes on the back.

Ellen: Oh, like they have seven toes.

Christian: I was like, "You're blowing my mind!"

Ellen: Seven toes per paw. You never noticed how guinea pigs have seven toes? That's absurd. Anyway, so I'm going to get into my ratings. So first category that we like to look at is effectiveness, and we define this as how good the animal is at doing the things that it's trying to do. I give the capybara an 8 out of 10. The capybara has some really interesting adaptations that make it really good at getting around in the water. So, first of all, like, I mentioned that the front feet have four toes, the back feet have three toes. But one difference between the capybara and the guinea pig is that they have webbed feet.

Christian: Oh, okay.

Ellen: So there's actually webbing in between their toes, and that helps them generate some movement in the water. Also, whereas when you look at a guinea pig's toes, they have those very, like almost needle-sharp claws, the capybara has claws, but they're much more round and blunt and thick.

Christian: Kinda like a dog's maybe?

Ellen: I mean, I wouldn't even say that, it's just- it's a much thicker, blunter claw and it seems like it's more for digging into the ground.

Christian: Got it.

Ellen: So it's more for pushing on like mud and pushing off on riverbanks and stuff. It's more for gaining traction on the bottom of the water.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: So they need to navigate in the water really well cause that's where they spend most of their time and that's where they find most of the vegetation that they eat. So they eat a lot of grasses that grow in the water, you know...

Christian: Kind of like our manatee friends.

Ellen: Yeah. Well they, they eat things on the surface of the water. So they'll eat plants growing on the surface or plants growing along the riverbank or stuff like that.

Christian: Like maybe lily pad-type plants.

Ellen: Yeah, yeah, they like to eat stuff like that.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: They can also hold their breath for up to five minutes at a time.

Christian: That's a lot.

Ellen: It is. They can really go for a lengthy dive. They can chill in the water for quite a while. It's a good long time. Now what's really interesting that I hadn't actively thought about, but once I heard it, it kind of affected the way that I now look at capybaras, is that their eyes, ears and nostrils are all located along the top of the head. Instead of the, like for example, the nostrils being lower on the head, they're up top.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: So the reason for this is so that the capybara can still hear, see, and breathe with the rest of their body submerged in the water. So kind of like when you talked about the matamata, how they have that tube-shaped nose, so that they can still breathe without having anything visible above the water. This is kind of that same concept where they're minimizing the amount of their body that they have to have out of the water.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: So they can do all of this stuff while only having a very small amount of their head exposed out of the water.

Christian: The imagery you described also makes me think of hippos.

Ellen: Yup. Yup. Similar to that.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: They're not related to hippos, but...

Christian: No, but that same kind of principle, like having all of those sensory things on one plane.

Ellen: Yeah. Yeah. It is similar to hippos in that way. So all of those things contribute to it being pretty effective in the water, and so that's good because kind of their only defense strategy is to hide in the water. So if they see a predator or something, then the herd will run away as fast as they can, and they will try to run into the water so that they can hide there. Now, I did have to deduct two points from their effectiveness because they don't have any other means of defending themselves, and hiding in the water isn't going to do anything against, for example, caimans, anacondas, and jaguars.

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: All three of those will not hesitate to just pick one of those capybara right out of the herd.

Christian: And plus, one of those is normally in the water anyway.

Ellen: Well, two of them, caimans and anacondas are usually in the water and jaguars, as we talked about in a recent episode, will not hesitate to just jump right in. So yeah, I kinda had to take an effectiveness point off because yeah, you can hide in the water all you want, but that's still where the predators are.

Christian: I think that also kind of speaks to how impressive the anaconda is to, you know, of course, snakes eat their food whole, and this is a big boy.

Ellen: While I was researching this, I did stumble across on the internet a video of an anaconda swallowing a capybara.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: Which is ridiculous. That's absolutely insane. Please stop it. Stop it. I don't like it.

Christian: So, prior to this episode, the main thing I knew about capybaras is that... Food for anacondas. That was the thing.

Ellen: I don't think that anacondas are like their primary predator. I think it's jaguars, but it's also birds of prey that will pick them off, like eagles and stuff like that.

Christian: When they're young, maybe?

Ellen: You ever seen a harpy eagle?

Christian: Oh wait, is that the same area?

Ellen: Yeah.

Christian: Is it?

Ellen: Yeah. They're in South America.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: Yeah. It's crazy. Right?

Christian: Yeah. Poor capybara.

Ellen: Yeah, he's not doing great. So, yeah, the capybara doesn't really have any other sort of defense strategies, although in order to sort of make up for their vulnerability, like other rodents, they are prolific breeders. So they can have a litter of up to eight babies at a time.

Christian: That's the quantity over quality type thing, I guess.

Ellen: Yeah. That's kind of the rodent approach, right? It's like they have kind of come to terms with like, okay, most of us are gonna die. Most of us are gonna get eaten very quickly, so let's just make very many of us.

Christian: That one's going to be the ammunition baby... Quokka.

Ellen: Thanks.

Christian: Not that quokka is a rodent.

Ellen: Now that kind of paints a picture like the capybara's not a good mom, but she is. I'll talk about that in a second. But yeah, so that all is just to say that they are very well adapted to thriving in aquatic environments, they're pretty good at doing a good job of eating a bunch of grass and hiding in the water. But when it comes to fighting back against predators, no real options there.

Christian: Yeah, they're good at being in the water, but so is a lot of other things there.

Ellen: So are the things that eat them. So maybe in that respect, maybe actually taking to the water was not such a great idea.

Christian: Ah well.

Ellen: But so yeah, that's the 8 out of 10 I gave them for effectiveness. For ingenuity, and this surprised me, 9 out of 10.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: Clever, clever little dude, which you might not think because of the sort of pace that they live their life. at. They are on their own time. They're on the capybara clock. Like, they're actually pretty clever. I feel like since they do have some real weaknesses, they are negating those weaknesses by finding strength in numbers. So capybara live together in herds of up to 40 individuals.

Christian: Wow.

Ellen: So large groups, they're very, very social. And they live together in these big groups. They're called herds, and the herd has a social hierarchy where it'll have a dominant male and then some subordinate males, and it also has the females and all of their babies. So some interesting sort of class structure in the capybara herd. Capybaras have a really complex vocal language.

Christian: Ooh!

Ellen: Yeah. I found this information in the study "Vocal Repertoire of Captive Capybara (Hydrochoerus hydrochaeris): Structure, Context and Function" by Kamila S. Barros and the Applied Ethology Laboratory at the State University of Santa Cruz. What this study basically showed was that capybaras have a really complex vocal language that is comprised of seven types of calls: whistle, cry, whine, squeal, bark, click and tooth chattering. And all of those calls mean different things.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: So I'm not going to break every single one of those down. If you really want a deep dive into what all of these calls mean, read the study. It's so good. But, so for example, if one capybara sees a predator, they will bark to warn their herd that there's a predator nearby, and then the herd will run into the water. But another example is this clicking sound that they make. So when the herd is moving together, all of the individuals in the herd make this clicking noise at each other and it's to coordinate their movement. And the understanding in the study was that it's a mechanism that allows them to know each other's location when they're moving through thick vegetation. Cause keep in mind they're in like marshy, rain forest sort of lands. So they might not always have eye contact with each other, they might not always have line of sight, so they have to be able to communicate with each of the vocally so that they all get to the same place.

Christian: Cool.

Ellen: Yeah. There's all these other vocalizations that they have that mean all these different things that they communicate with each other in the herd, and what was really interesting to me is that the study even noted some variation in the structures of the different calls between different herds. So they have not only a language, but they have accents.

Christian: Nice.

Ellen: So like capybaras in different herds will maybe make sounds a little differently from others. Like maybe their bark will be a different pitch.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: Yeah. So it's just really cool that they have little accents from each other. Little dialects of capybara language. Another thing about herd structure is that capybara mothers will actually nurse all of the babies in the herd, not just their own.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: So they're not picky. They'll just kind of nurse whatever baby they see. They'll just, they kind of stick up for each other. You know? They're very altruistic. They will take care of, you know, like a capybara mom is a mom to all capybaras.

Christian: That's nice.

Ellen: She's a very good mommy and she takes care of all of the babies, not just her own baby. The next thing that I want to talk about is their trainability. So I got this information from Hannah Louise Sinclaire, and Hannah Louise Sinclaire I have connected with on Instagram, and she has probably the coolest Instagram feed I've ever seen. So she works directly with not only capybaras but a lot of other interesting animals like bald ibis, tapirs, meerkats, all sorts of really cool stuff.

Christian: Neat.

Ellen: Yeah. So I reached out to her and I asked her if she could provide some of her experience, you know, working with capybaras and training them and providing enrichment for them and stuff. And she was so, so incredibly nice, she sent me so much awesome like, firsthand experience with capybaras.

Christian: That's awesome!

Ellen: So I really appreciated that she did that. So if you are on Instagram and you like capybaras, look up Hannah Louise Sinclaire cause that's where it's at. She told me that capybaras respond particularly well to tactile reinforcement... Chin scritches!

Christian: Yay!

Ellen: They love chin scritches. So she said they actually accept pets as rewards.

Christian: Aww...

Ellen: So she says their hair stands on end when you pet them, and that they will actively ask for pets. So they'll actually like, come up you and sort of prompt you to pet them. And she said that she's actually been able to train medical procedures like blood draws and injections just by using scritches as rewards.

Christian: That's awesome.

Ellen: Like, instead of like, a food reward. You know, like for other animals you might offer like a little a small food treat?

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: But for capybaras, they just use little scritches on the chin and that's, and they're happy about it.

Christian: How precious.

Ellen: And they just like that. Yes, it's very endearing. I really like it. She did say that training adult capybaras to follow targets- if you've ever seen, it could be something like a long stick with a ball on the end where they're supposed to like follow it. So doing target training for adult capybaras can be a little challenging at times because sometimes even though they understand the command and they know what they're supposed to do, they're very lazy and sometimes they just don't feel like it. So sometimes they can be a little bit stubborn. But Hannah says that they have definitely learned to recognize who she is, as well as her voice and the clicker that she uses to train them. She says that for the capybaras that she works with, they provide enrichment in the form of food hidden inside balls or placed up high out of reach, so that they have to work to get the food. So being rodents, naturally, they're still very skittish and even after learning to trust her over time, they still startle very easily.

Christian: Yeah...

Ellen: I thought that was all just really, really interesting. It sounds like capybaras are a real delight to work with.

Christian: Sounds like it.

Ellen: I've never gotten to actually like interact with a capybara before, but I hope that I do someday. So that is my 9 out of 10 for their ingenuity. I think they're pretty clever.

Christian: Sounds like it.

Ellen: They've kinda got life figured out, right? I think they're just all about it. This brings me to aesthetics for aesthetics, I'm giving them a 7 out of 10 for the fact that they do just kind of look pretty plain. They're just all a solid brown color. They have that wiry hair. They don't actually have the facial muscles to produce emotional expressions, so you just kind of get one flat expression where they kind of have their eyes sort of half closed. They have that very relaxed expression that reminds me of Saitama from One Punch Man.

Christian: Oh, really?

Ellen: It reminds me of that guy. Like when he's drawn in that very like simplistic style where his eyes are like half open. That's capybara town right there. Like that's what that makes me think of. Now for aesthetics, I gave them a 7 out of 10. For the capybara, I'm going to include a very special edition subcategory...

Christian: Uh oh!

Ellen: Of the chill factor, and I'm giving them a 10 out of 10.

Christian: Hot off the press!

Ellen: 10 out of 10 chill. They are indescribably chill. They're so chill that just looking at them, I feel like it just lowers your blood pressure. Like you look at a capybara and you're like, things are good. They are a very chill animal. I like if there was an Olympic event for chill, capybara would take home the gold every year.

Christian: I feel like I've seen lots of pictures and videos of them just kind of like, cuddling, laying around with each other.

Ellen: Yeah. And not just with each other, which is the weird thing. They're down to kick it with literally anybody. Like, as skittish as they can be, there is a Tumblr blog, animalssittingoncapybaras.tumblr.com...

Christian: Oh boy.

Ellen: And it's just a blog of photos of animals sitting on capybaras. My personal favorite is the goat. There are multiple pictures of capybaras with little goats standing on top of them, which is really adorable because goats will stand on top of anything. Like, we know this to be true. Goats want to be as high up as they possibly can get at all times.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: And the capybaras is just like rolling with it, like he's just totally cool with it and this goes like standing on his head. It's really cute.

Christian: Well, it's good to hear that that exists, and also that tumblr is still kickin' it.

Ellen: It's an underdog story. Another cute thing, so we talked about this recently in our Facebook group and that yielded our friend Alix at the Pomegranates and Pitchforks podcast, who is a delightful presence in our Facebook group, made a couple of very charming illustrations of a capybara being a very good mom to all of the other animals, and like tucking in like a snake and a monkey and checking in- Did you not see this?

Christian: No.

Ellen: It was so cute! She's like, like it's like capybara mom, like checking in on like... A little porcupine baby and being like, just checking on you. Oh, I didn't say the hot baths! Okay. Another cute thing that they do is in Japan, in zoos where they have capybaras, they put them in hot springs and let them take hot baths, and it's the best thing I've ever seen. Look up videos of capybaras in Japanese hot baths. They have these hot baths and these hot springs and the capybaras will just line up single file and they very slowly and calmly step into the tub one after another and then like 10 of them get in a tub altogether and they're just all packed in so tightly, but they're having a really good bath, and it's really cute! And the bath has like a bunch of lemons in it also.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: And it's very charming.

Christian: I'm imagining every one of them has a little washcloth on their block heads.

Ellen: There's one, I saw one video because I kind of went down a rabbit hole of watching capybaras taking hot baths, and in one video I saw there was one that was doing that thing where it was totally under all the water with just its nose and the top of its head sticking out of the water, and on top of its head was a leaf.

Christian: Oh!

Ellen: It's really cute. So, also if you want some really good ASMR, there are a lot of videos out there of capybara eating various foods. My favorite is the popsicle, but there's also some good ones of them eating watermelon if you're into ASMR, that's some good ones. They make very pleasant and satisfying sounds. If you're ever feeling upset, just think to yourself, what would a capybara do, and then you take a hot bath and you eat some leaves, and you make a bunch of clicking sounds.

Christian: And then get eaten.

Ellen: And then get eaten by a jaguar. So yeah, that's my 10 out of 10 chill factor, 7 out of 10 aesthetic factor for the capybara.

Christian: Very good.

Ellen: Yeah. So to wrap things up for the capybara, their conservation status is of least concern. They're doing fine. Uh, in some places where they live, they can be hunted for meat or pelts, but some captive farming efforts have sprung up to sort of offset that, where people that are consuming capybara are farming them, like breeding them and farming them, which is helping to not put so much pressure on people in that area to hunt them wild. So it's allowing wild populations to stabilize.

Christian: Sounds good.

Ellen: But they are still, of course, threatened by deforestation and habitat loss as are literally everything that lives anywhere.

Christian: Yep.

Ellen: Particularly so in the rainforest, if you live in the rainforest, there's always the looming threat of deforestation. But also a small invasive population of capybaras has been observed in Florida.

Christian: Really?

Ellen: Yep! It's unknown how many there are currently, but our habitat is pretty much perfect for them. Right?

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: Like we got that whole tropical forest swamp land.... We have pretty much everything a capybara needs to like, Thrive.

Christian: We have two out of the three predators though...

Ellen: ...No we don't. We got gators. I think it gator would definitely eat a capybara.

Christian: Maybe a mountain lion might go for it?

Ellen: I don't think a mountain lion would go for it. I don't think.

Christian: I feel like it would.

Ellen: I don't think it would. We don't have anacondas though.

Christian: But we have invasive pythons.

Ellen: We have invasive pythons...

Christian: Maybe not as big.

Ellen: Yeah, definitely not that big. So I feel like an adult capybara would be like, safe here where we live. I've never seen one, and I couldn't get like a good specific location where these invasive wild capybaras are, but it did say North Florida.

Christian: What?

Ellen: Yeah, it said North Florida. I guess there was some sort of research facility that had some and they escaped and went wild.

Christian: The weird Jurassic Park sequel.

Ellen: Well, but I've never seen one. But I wonder if it would be easy to mistake one for nutria?

Christian: No, nutria are much smaller.

Ellen: Yeah, I know they're much smaller, but like I wonder if anybody would ever like... See one and be like, "Oh that's a nutria" or something.

Christian: I at least I wouldn't, but- well now, I won't be so shocked if I happen to see a capybara just walking across the street. I mean, I'll be surprised, but I'll be like, "Oh okay. Yeah, that makes sense."

Ellen: That tracks. That's fine.

Christian: Or if someone lost their pet or something, I don't know.

Ellen: Now some people do keep them as pets.

Christian: Oh yeah?

Ellen: It's legal in two states. One of them is Texas, I don't remember what the other one is, but in some states it's legal to have them with an exotic pet license. So the reasoning behind that is some people think since they're so docile and non-threatening that they could be good pets. But another thing about it is that they're so social that I feel like if you were going to have one and have it thrive and do very- and be healthy and happy, you would have to have like 10 of them at least.

Christian: Yikes.

Ellen: So it's like, I dunno. It's like, just because you can doesn't mean you should. Right?

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: Just don't, don't do that. Don't keep them as pets. Don't keep them in your house. I'm just saying our bathtub's not that big. So that's the capybara.

Christian: Very good.

Ellen: I was- I felt like I went into this thinking this might be kind of a boring animal, because when we see them like at the zoo or something, they're usually just laying there. We've seen them get in the water and swim around a little bit, but they're almost always just kind of chilling, laying on the side, eyes closed, just vibing, basically like they're just keeping it tight. So I was a little bit worried that this would be a boring animal, but not so I felt like there were a lot more interesting than I thought they were going to be.

Christian: Very good.

Ellen: Yeah, that's the capybara.

Christian: I like them a lot.

Ellen: Me too. Before we do your animal, I just want to give a real quick shout out to our Patreon. We have some cool stuff on there, like a feed of the show with no ads and also I send out prints of photos that I've taken of cool animals. So, you know, go, go check us out at patreon.com/justthezooofus. And for this week I would like to thank our sponsors, Briana Feinberg, Krystina Sanders, and the Jungle Gym Queen. Thanks y'all.

Christian: Thank you.

Ellen: Alright baby. It's your turn.

Christian: Okay!

Ellen: Who are we talking about this week?

Christian: So this week I'm bringing to the... To the ball court...

Ellen: To the ball court...?

Christian: And deep in the paint, the Gaboon viper.

Ellen: Ooh!

Christian: Scientific name, get ready for it.

Ellen: Okay. I'm braced.

Christian: Bitis gabonica.

Ellen: Bitis?

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: It bite you.

Christian: Bit us.

Ellen: It bite. We call it Bitis. Hey, we need you to come up with a, we need to come up with a name for this genus of snakes that bites real good. Um, Bitis.

Christian: So yes, Gaboon viper. This species was submitted by Sarah Horne. Thank you Sarah.

Ellen: Thanks Sarah.

Christian: And I'm getting information for this little dude from the Smithsonian's National Zoo and Conservation Biology Institute website, which can be found at nationalzoo.si.edu, and also again, Animal Diversity Web from the University of Michigan Museum of Zoology, found at animaldiversity.org.

Ellen: We love y'all so much.

Christian: Good source. So, let's talk about some basic stats on the Gaboon viper. Obviously a snake. So, uh, let's talk about how big these things are. So first of all, it is the largest viper in Africa. They can weigh more than 45 pounds.

Ellen: What!

Christian: Or 20 kilograms.

Ellen: That's huge for a snake, right?

Christian: That's like, two of our dog.

Ellen: Could probably eat two of our dog.

Christian: And they reach lengths of more than 6 feet, or 1.8 meters.

Ellen: This is not a little guy at all. You lied.

Christian: Yeah, you're right. Bamboozled. Uh, they can reach nearly 6 inches, or 15 centimeters across at their widest point, so they are hefty.

Ellen: This is uh, thicc.

Christian: Yeah. So, if you ever see these, pictures of these or even at a zoo, you'll notice they are kind of on the thicker side.

Ellen: I have seen, we have one at our zoo. We have one at the Jacksonville Zoo and I have seen this friend, and this is a very plump fellow.

Christian: Very much so. You'll find these in rainforests and wet areas in Central, East, and West Africa. In the wild, at least. They are popular zoo animals.

Ellen: Sure, sure sure.

Christian: Mostly because they look neat.

Ellen: They do.

Christian: They belong to the taxonomic family Viperidae, and their relatives being other vipers of course.

Ellen: Sure.

Christian: So those being things like rattlesnakes, water moccasins from episode 5.

Ellen: There you go!

Christian: And copperheads.

Ellen: I feel like the water moccasin is also a little chunky.

Christian: Yeah, a little bit. I think that might be something just common though, with a lot of vipers.

Ellen: Wait, this is episode 25. We've done 50 species. Of those, two of them have been snakes, and both of them have been fat, and both of them were done by you. What's your thing with fat snakes?

Christian: So I'm starting to remember that as a kid growing up, reptiles were my favorite.

Ellen: That's true.

Christian: So that's all I've got to say about that. And the thing about vipers, there's kinda some subclasses there. So there are vipers that have pits, the heat sensing organs on there, the top of their lips. The Gaboon viper is not one of them.

Ellen: I don't know why I thought this, but I thought that the "pit" part of pit viper meant that they like... Nested in pits or something like that? I don't know why I thought- maybe I was thinking of like, the scene from Indiana Jones where there's a pit full of snakes and I'm like... I thought that they like lived in pits for some reason, and I thought those were pit vipers.

Christian: It's always snakes!

Ellen: That's the dumbest animal thing I thought.

Christian: So I'm gonna jump right into it. Effectiveness, I'm giving a 9 out of 10 for the Gaboon viper. So my first point is its camouflage. The camouflage is so the coloration of its scales and also the shape of its head and makes it so it blends in really, really well with leaf litter on the bottom of a forest floor. Its head is even shaped like a leaf.

Ellen: Oh, that makes sense! Cause I know what their head looks like and I hadn't, I hadn't made that connection.

Christian: It even has coloration that makes it look like it has a central vein going down the center of its head, that looks like what a leaf would have.

Ellen: Oh, that's what that is!

Christian: Yep.

Ellen: Wow. And they have some really interesting like, high-contrasting patterns too.

Christian: Yeah. Yeah.

Ellen: It's really cool.

Christian: Lots of browns and like, I guess white-adjacent kind of colors. Even some purple sometimes.

Ellen: Ooooh, so pretty.

Christian: Yeah. So camouflage, it's very well hidden in its natural habitat. Next point, of course, is its venom. So being part of the viper family, they're all venomous. And this one, a good bit.

Ellen: I feel like I've heard of them being ranked as like, some of the most venomous.

Christian: So here's the thing. Yes, it is venomous and you do not want to be bit by them. It has a very bad rap for its bites. There had been people that have died from it.

Ellen: Oh no.

Christian: But it's rare. I'll get into a little bit why that's rare, but let me just talk about the venom. So its venom contains neurotoxin and hematoxin, so it destroys blood cells and vessels. But here's the thing about its venom: pound for pound, it's not particularly toxic as compared to other snakes. But here's the thing, it doesn't have to be. It has some of the largest venom snack... Venom snacks.

Ellen: Venom snacks!

Christian: It has some of the largest venom sacs of any venomous snake. So what it lacks in toxicity, it makes up for in quantity.

Ellen: Oh, so it's just pumping you full of this stuff?

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: Oh, okay. Interesting.

Christian: So when you look at its head, you'll notice that, you know, the part of its head where the venom sacs are, are very bulbous. Right?

Ellen: It's got big old cheeks.

Christian: Yep. Yep. Those are death cheeks.

Ellen: It's kind of like how, you know, like chipmunks will store their food and their cheeks, but the Gaboon viper stores hatred and death in its cheeks.

Christian: Yep. And also, kind of the last point about effectiveness, it has the longest fangs of all venomous snakes that go up to 2 inches, or 5 centimeters.

Ellen: Wow. Some big toofers.

Christian: They're big. So they get deep, and they can pump a lot of venom in there.

Ellen: That's an interesting approach. They're like, "Hmm, instead of making really, really good poison, we'll just make a bunch of it."

Christian: Yeah. Basically. So I'm going to move on to ingenuity. I'm giving it a 7 out of 10 for ingenuity.

Ellen: That's not bad.

Christian: So Gaboon vipers are passive hunters, meaning they usually go somewhere that they know prey will frequent, and they just sit and wait until something walks along. It's still relying on its camouflage.

Ellen: It's like an ambush predator.

Christian: Yeah, yeah. And it's nocturnal. The next point I'm going to give is its placid nature.

Ellen: Placid?

Christian: Yes. It very rarely bites humans. If we're talking about the chill factor for snakes, it's pretty high up there.

Ellen: This was an unexpected common thread for this episode. I feel like a lot of times we end up finding some sort of like, hidden surprise theme. I didn't think the chill factor was going to be it.

Christian: They don't look chill at all.

Ellen: No, they don't. They don't look like it. They look very extra.

Christian: So most bites with humans happen when they get stepped on, because of their very good camouflage.

Ellen: No step on snek.

Christian: Yeah. They'll usually hiss before biting, but you know, if they get stepped on, they can't get away. They're going to bite. They're more likely to bite when they're hungry, so it could be a case of mistaken identity.

Ellen: Sure.

Christian: That's more so in captive settings. So when you're feeding Gaboon vipers, a lot of the cases you hear about of people being bitten by a Gaboon viper happen with captive snakes.

Ellen: I've never had a pet snake myself, but you have.

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: Did your snake ever bite you because it was hungry?

Christian: I have never- I was never bitten by my snake, but there's something from that experience that I will never ever forget. When I went to the pet shop with my mom, and this was in Rhode Island, to pick out a pet, and which I would ultimately pick a ball python, but I asked the person working there, "does it bite?" And what he said, I'll always remember, he says, "if it has a mouth, it can bite."

Ellen: Yes. Except... The anteater.

Christian: Yes. It just kind of, *thwpp* I don't know what you call that.

Ellen: The anteater and the tamandua will not bite you, BUT the point still stands.

Christian: Yeah. So even though these guys are normally very placid, I still do not recommend messing with them.

Ellen: Yeah, still don't, y'all.

Christian: One story I read about someone that was bitten by a Gaboon viper that they owned and ultimately died from was, you know, they weren't doing the proper handling methods. They weren't using like the snake... Stick, I dunno what you call it. Um, it has like a little grabby thing at the end of it.

Ellen: I know what you're talking about.

Christian: Tthis person was just bare-handed, you know, grabbing these things.

Ellen: Oh my God. I don't know how to explain to people not to do that.

Christian: Yeah, yeah.

Ellen: Like I don't know how to tell people, don't just kinda Leroy Jenkins your Gaboon viper.

Christian: So while these things can be very dangerous, the bites are very rare because of this nature, and also they're kind of reclusive. The kind of the rap they have is a little unwarranted. Just a little. Cause we're talking, you know, number of bodies, it's negligible, almost.

Ellen: I guess what you're going for is like, they're not as aggressive as you might think.

Christian: Yeah. They're not just like dealing death left and right. You know. Another thing that they do that I counted towards ingenuity is that a lot of venomous snakes, when they do a strike, they'll bite quickly, inject some venomum- Venomum.

Ellen: Venomum?

Christian: You take venom, and you mix it with cinnamon, and then you're basically dead.

Ellen: My favorite breakfast is a venomum roll.

Christian: Just like grandmanum used to make. Okay, okay, okay. So most venomous snakes, it's a very quick action. It's a bite, inject, release. Very quick. You can blink and miss it, basically.

Ellen: Sure.

Christian: These guys do not do that. They bite and they hold on. They don't let go.

Ellen: Oh! They're comin for ya.

Christian: So this goes back to that method of quantity of venom.

Ellen: Oh, that makes sense. They're probably just trying to pump as much venom as they can in there.

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: That's cool!

Christian: Now it also helps with the thing not getting away. Right? Cause if this big snake is latched on, they don't have to run it down after it dies. It's still here.

Ellen: I feel like a lot of venomous snakes do that catch and release thing, right? Where they bite and then back off because they're relying on their venom to kill the prey, so the prey is not gonna get that far. Right? Like they can just follow it and they know it's going to die soon anyway, but... Or you could just hang on.

Christian: And with smaller animals, of course, this venom is going to be very quick. And the last thing I give it for ingenuity, it can control the amount of venom delivered, even to the point where it can deliver none.

Ellen: Oh, this is a dry bite! I've heard of this!

Christian: Yes. Known as a dry bite. So the effects of a bite from a Gaboon viper can range from no effect to rapid death.

Ellen: So nothing could happen, or you could immediately die.

Christian: So here's the problem. So you don't know. There's no way to know until you've spent enough time to say like, "Oh, okay, I'm still alive. I'm not experiencing any issues. That must've been a dry bite." You cannot count on that.

Ellen: That's true. I want to see that Web MD page that says like, effects may include: nothing, or death.

Christian: Yeah. Well, I mean, there's a whole, you know, spectrum of things that happen in between there. Cause the problem with this kind of venom is necrosis. So you're talking about losing some flesh maybe, or even an entire limb being amputated, depending on how bad it is. So when someone is bitten by a Gaboon viper, they're going to go to the hospital no matter what. You might be life-flown (life-flighted? I don't know) right out of there to the closest hospital. And this is the sort of thing where you're probably gonna need antivenom flown in from the nearest research institute. I think there's one with the San Diego Zoo.

Ellen: Oh gosh. Well, I imagine if you're encountering one in the wild, and you're in Africa and the nearest antivenom is... wherever.

Christian: Well, I mean, yeah, so there's, there's a whole like listing of, you know, who carries what in terms of antivenom for the United States, you know, San Diego Zoo is one of them. I think, the National Zoo is another one. But anyway, so here's the thing: they don't know if it was a dry bite. So you're going to go to a hospital, you're going to be in intensive care, you're going to be on an I.V., they're going to have five vials of this antivenom ready to go. Five to ten, cause it kind of depends.

Ellen: Oh, jeez. Yeah.

Christian: So that's under close, close observation until they, it's like 24 to 48 hours before they could say definitively it was a dry bite.

Ellen: Oh my God. That is so stressful.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: That is, I'm secondhand stressed. I feel like we should have talked about the Gaboon viper first so that, we should have done this one first so that the capybara could be our comedown from that. Cause now I'm stressed and I need to think about capybaras and I need to go take a hot bath and eat some leaves.

Christian: So I think this is actually some good advice for any snake bite, especially one that you suspect is a venomous snake. Go to the hospital, try and identify what the snake was.

Ellen: So what you're saying is I should get out my phone, and make sure that I get a good in-focus picture of the snake, and then post it on iNaturalist and then wait for three to five verified species IDs...

Christian: Uh-huh.

Ellen: And then take that to the hospital.

Christian: You will already be dead. So yeah, a 7 out of 10 for ingenuity. I thought its methods are interesting and works to its strengths.

Ellen: So the dry bite is a troll mechanic. You're griefing at that point.

Christian: So yeah, the big range of what can happen depending on how much venom it put inside you.

Ellen: They have a rudeness factor going.

Christian: I saw somewhere it was a graph of different kind of venomous snakes, where it was saying how much in volume of its venom is considered fatal versus how much it typically injects with a bite. For the Gaboon viper, it's something like two or three times the necessary amount, at it's maximum.

Ellen: Oh my gosh. Well, okay, so they live in Africa, right? They're probably like chasing down some pretty big prey. They probably have a good reason to be maxing out that much venom.

Christian: So they eat small and medium-sized mammals and birds. They found specimens that have had ingested giant rats, brush-tailed porcupines....

Ellen: Okay. The porcupine doesn't seem like an intuitive prey for an animal that has to swallow its prey whole.

Christian: So I did a quick Google on this particular porcupine. It is very different from what you're probably thinking of, the North American porcupine. The brush-tailed porcupine, its quills are mostly centered on its tail and less pronounced.

Ellen: Still though.

Christian: Yeah, still, but it's nowhere near as bad as the ridiculousness of the North American porcupine, which is just quills everywhere.

Ellen: Yeah, that just doesn't seem like a good idea though, right?

Christian: I mean, headfirst. Don't throw it up. Please don't throw it up. I can't imagine a worse death.

Ellen: I feel like if I was a snake and I knew that anything I wanted to eat, I had to swallow whole, I feel like I would see the porcupine and be like, hmm, maybe not.

Christian: I bet it's spicy. So, then the last thing that they found in these snakes is what's known as a royal antelope.

Ellen: Royal antelope?

Christian: Fully grown royal antelope, and these are the world's smallest antelope.

Ellen: Aww! See you talked it up like this thing had a fully grown adult antelope in its belly and then it's like, Oh it's a little one.

Christian: So this is what prompted me to look up some information, cause that sounded a little farfetched. Because I'm thinking like, full deer size, but it's not. It is the world's smallest antelope, it is 50 centimeters long and weighs 3 kilograms.

Ellen: It's just a teeny!

Christian: Like, 5 or 6 pounds.

Ellen: It's just a baby!

Christian: Yeah, it's cute, and snake food apparently. Moving on to aesthetics, this one was pretty straightforward. I was very impressed by its coloration and its camouflage. I gave it a 9 out of 10 for aesthetics. So, yeah, we talked about this, the pattern on its skin, its head shape, very leaf-shaped and it has a little... Kind of like a upward spike on its like, nose.

Ellen: It makes me think of Jasmine from Aladdin, it makes me think of her shoe.

Christian: Oh, okay. I can see that.

Ellen: Yeah.

Christian: Their eyes are interesting too. You know, snake eyes are always interesting to look at. But finally, my last point for aesthetics is chonk.

Ellen: They're very plump and it's very pleasing. They kind of plop down on the ground, right?

Christian: But again, do not touch! Don't do it!

Ellen: You know, and what sucks is that they look soft, too. Don't they?

Christian: Don't touch that they forbiddien cuddle noodle.

Ellen: It's a dangerous noodle.

Christian: Don't do it.

Ellen: But they look so soft and they look so fat and they look like you could give them a big old hug.

Christian: I wouldn't, though!

Ellen: Hey, I might be fine, though.

Christian: I mean you wake up every day, you don't know if you're going to live or die. What's the difference?

Ellen: Listen, I'll roll those dice. I don't care.

Christian: So that's my aesthetic score, 9 out of 10. Some more wrapping up information: the conservation status is actually not evaluated.

Ellen: Really?

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: That's surprising.

Christian: Yeah. I thought it's a little interesting with its reproduction. So they usually mate in the rainy season in Africa, which is from September to December.

Ellen: They bless the rains down in Africa.

Christian: Yes. Excellent. In captivity, they can simulate this by just spraying them with water to uh, grease the wheels, if you will. Uh, they have a seven month gestation period. They give birth- here's the surprising part- to 50 to 60 live babies at a time.

Ellen: Live babies!

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: And also that's very many.

Christian: Yes. Evidently, most vipers give live birth.

Ellen: Okay.

Christian: Yeah. I didn't know that.

Ellen: Okay, this is that viviparous life.

Christian: Yeah. The young, they're born up to 30 centimeters, or 11.8 inches long already at birth.

Ellen: Okay, hold on. So go back to the thing you said about how many.

Christian: Yes. 50 to 60.

Ellen: 50 to 60, and each one of them is like, pushing a foot long.

Christian: That's their max. That is their max.

Ellen: [stressed sigh]

Christian: And they already have the same coloration and patterns as the adults when they're born.

Ellen: My thoughts and prayers are with the Gaboon viper.

Christian: There's no real parental care after being born.

Ellen: That's kinda what reptiles do. They kinda...

Christian: Except for alligators, I guess.

Ellen: Gators are good moms, compared to the rest of the reptiles. The rest of the reptiles are like, all right, go do your thing.

Christian: I think we talked about this, but if a little baby gator is calling someone, you probably want to put it down.

Ellen: If they're making a sound, you want to go ahead and leave.

Christian: That's its call for mama.

Ellen: Yeah. And she's comin'.

Christian: Yeah. And then finally their lifespan is around 20 years.

Ellen: That's a long lived snake, huh?

Christian: Yeah, so that's the Gaboon viper.

Ellen: This is such a good snake. It's so satisfying.

Christian: Yup. You can see them in lots of zoos. If you find yourself in a position where this is relevant, do not touch, do not pick up.

Ellen: You know what, with any sort of creative pursuit, you always feel like you've put something good into the world and you want to feel like you've had an impact. If we can save one person's life by letting them know not to touch Gaboon vipers, I would like to hope that someday, someone is out there like, trekking through the African forest and they come across a Gaboon viper, and you see them like, slowly reached down to touch it and then you see them just like think for a second... And your voice echoes through the chamber of their memory and they're like, "Wait, Christian from Just the Zoo of Us told me not to touch these things... I might be okay though."

Christian: I hate that guy! I'm gonna do it anyway!

Ellen: Said, "I remember distinctly him saying that they're gonna bite me, but I might be fine. Nothing might happen. I'm gonna go for it."

Christian: Yeah, I mean...

Ellen: Don't do that. Don't flip that coin.

Christian: Gotta break some eggs...

Ellen: To make an omelet? Is that what you're talking about? What's the omelet here that we're trying to make?

Christian: Knowledge. That's all I got.

Ellen: Okay baby. Thank you so much. You did a great job.

Christian: Thank you.

Ellen: That was a lovely snake. Thank you for talking about it. So thank you so much to everybody who has been tuning in and listening and spending this time with us. Also, thank you to everybody who has been reviewing us on your podcatchers, and especially thank you to people who have been recommending us to your friends and family and cohorts and comrades and all that good stuff. So, thank you so much for doing that. It means a lot to us. You can connect with us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. Just search the title of the show. You'll get there. I promise. If you have an animal species that you want to hear us talk about, you can either get those to us on social media. It would be really cool if you tweeted them at us. I would like that. That'd be fun. Go ahead and do that.

Christian: Do it!

Ellen: Tweet them at us! But you can also email them to me at ellen@justhezooofus.com. A transcript of this episode will be made available at justthezooofus.com, and last note, thank you Louie Zong for the use of your song "Adventuring" off of the album Bee Sides.

Christian: Thank you, thank you.

Ellen: We love it. In fact, it's playing right now. Bye!

Christian: There it goes! Bye!

24: Tardigrade & Platypus

Ellen: Hello Weatherfriends, this is Ellen Weatherford.

Christian: And Christian Weatherford.

Ellen: And this is Just the Zoo of Us, your favorite animal review podcast where we take your favorite species of animals and we review them and write them out of 10 in the categories of effectiveness, ingenuity and aesthetics.

Christian: We are not zoological experts. We do a lot of research and we try our best to make sure we're presenting information from trustworthy sources.

Ellen: This is a no fake news zone.

Christian: I'm going to source Lord of the Rings.

Ellen: Dragonology, from Ernest Drake. So Christian, last week I went first. So that means it's your turn.

Christian: What I bring to us this week, the whole internet asked for it. We're bringing it. That is, of course, the tardigrade.

Ellen: Finally.

Christian: Yes. This was submitted to us by Bo Gantt as well as the Nagging Naturalist.

Ellen: Thank you both.

Christian: Thank you, thank you.

Ellen: Excellent taste in friends.

Christian: I'll be pulling my information from livescience.com, and also one other source that I will quote as I'm using it because it kinda gives something away. So, kind of diving right in. You'll notice I did not say a scientific name.

Ellen: That's right. What's that about?

Christian: So the first thing I'm talking about, and also the first thing I learned: "tardigrade" actually describes any micro animal belonging to the tardigrada phylum.

Ellen: Oh that's a lot of... That's a very high level of classification.

Christian: Yes it is. So, it consists of over 1100 species, so I didn't even try to pick one.

Ellen: Okay. Broad strokes, folks.

Christian: Yes. So they are microscopic. I think a lot of people have heard or seen a lot about these on the internet in recent years.

Ellen: They're quite trendy.

Christian: Yeah. So their size can actually range quite a bit, relatively. So at their smallest, they're 0.05 millimeters long and at their largest, 1.2 millimeters long. So in inches, that's 0.002 inches to 0.05 inches.

Ellen: This is maybe the follicle of a chicken?

Christian: I've actually got some size comparisons to put this into perspective, cause that's one of those impossibly small things for us humans to think about. So to put that in context, the side of a single grain of ordinary table salt, so a single grain, imagine the tiny little cube, the side of one of those is about 0.3 millimeters long. So that means, at their smallest, you'd be able to line up six tardigrades end to end on the side of that grain of salt. While that their largest, it would actually span across four grains of salt. I mean, so while, you know, we're still at a small scale, that's still a pretty big range, right?

Ellen: That's true.

Christian: It's a whole magnitude, or actually a whole two magnitudes larger. Right?

Ellen: That is very much, yeah.

Christian: So partially that's because we're talking about a whole phylum, lots of different species in there. And talking about what they kind of look like, they're also known as water bears.

Ellen: I've heard that.

Christian: Yeah. To me, they look like worms with four sets of legs and a weird mouth.

Ellen: Yeah, they do have a bunch of legs, a whole bunch of little fat wiggly legs.

Christian: Yep. Cause they kind of swim.

Ellen: And then a little trumpet mouth.

Christian: Yeah, yeah. A telescoping mouth, kind of like an alien, like from the alien movies.

Ellen: Yes, definitely. When you see it, it does not look earthly.

Christian: Yeah. So the next part we'll usually talk about is taxonomic family. So again, we're talking about an entire phylum, which is comprised of 20 different families. I'm going to jump into our first category: effectiveness, which describes their physical abilities and attributes, how well they do the things they do. So for the tardigrade, I'm giving it a full 10 out of 10.

Ellen: Woof. Wow, that's a lot for a little tiny dude.

Christian: Let's talk about why.

Ellen: Okay. Please do. Please explain yourself.

Christian: They've been around for millions of years, millions. They've survived all five mass extinction events that we know about that has happened on the planet earth.

Ellen: They're not going anywhere.

Christian: They can live pretty much anywhere, but you'd normally find them in bodies of water, or in places that are wet in general.

Ellen: I guess that explains the water bear part of their name.

Christian: Yeah. And according to the paper "Survival of Tardigrades in Extreme Environments: A Model Animal for Astrobiology" by Daiki D. Horikawa, they can go into a state known as anhydrobiosis.

Ellen: Anhydrobiosis. Is that all one word?

Christian: It is.

Ellen: It's a big word. What's it mean?

Christian: So what that means is when all water is removed, it puts itself into a state of suspended animation. So while in that state, they have a high tolerance to ionizing radiation, a wide range of temperatures, the vacuum of space.

Ellen: Sure. Why not?

Christian: High pressures, they've actually survived open space travel through low earth orbit.

Ellen: Open space travel, meaning they're just like expose to space?

Christian: Yeah. While in low earth orbit.

Ellen: But why?

Christian: They wanted to see. So in those temperatures I mentioned, by the way, the range of temperatures they can withstand in this state are from -328 degrees Fahrenheit to +300 degrees Fahrenheit.

Ellen: Oh my goodness.

Christian: In Celsius, that is -200 to 148.9.

Ellen: Okay. So is this only while they're in that suspended animation state or can they...?

Christian: Yes. Because this, this is important. So I think a lot of people have heard that, oh they can survive anything. But a lot of that comes from while they're in this state. Cause while they're in this state, you know, it's specifically designed to keep them alive. So if they were suddenly in water, and now they're in space, I don't think it would work. Or suddenly exposed to these types of situations, although I don't, I don't know how quickly it can transition into this state.

Ellen: So they kind of go comatose. Right?

Christian: Yeah. So they basically slow down their metabolism to what is virtually a zero.

Ellen: Does that still count as them being alive though?

Christian: Yes!

Ellen: Does that count as them surviving? Cause they kind of are dead for a while.

Christian: Well, they come back from it. So when, when they're reintroduced to water, they come back after a couple of hours.

Ellen: This is like, um... What are those little sponge animals that you put them in water and then they unravel and turned into a little dinosaur or whatever?

Christian: Yeah. Basically.

Ellen: Just add water.

Christian: So when they go into this state, it also has special physical adaptations to avoid crystals forming when it freezes.

Ellen: Oh wow.

Christian: Cause that's, that's one of the most important things about when you're trying to freeze something without killing it, is not producing ice crystals. Cause those will puncture and burst the lining of cells. So that's the danger with freezing.

Ellen: So what do they do to not freeze?

Christian: So for that one, it has to do with the shape of its body. So when it enters this kind of state, it turns into a ball, or also known as a tun.

Ellen: A tun?

Christian: A T-U-N. Yeah. So it pulls its legs into its body, and so, and kind of turns into a ball.

Ellen: Okay. It kinda makes sense because I imagine when there's less surface area, there's just less available real estate for ice crystals to form on.

Christian: Yeah. So ice crystals are a little bit of a complicated topic. They have a lot to do with pressure and the speed at which the temperature changes. So I know back from my high school days, some of the best ice cream I've ever had was ice cream created with liquid nitrogen and that's because of the speed at which the cream and the sugar freezes prevents big ice crystals from forming, so it has a more smooth texture.

Ellen: Sure. Couldn't do that with the tardigrade, though.

Christian: I mean honestly, we've probably eaten thousands of tardigrades in our lifetime.

Ellen: Oh, gross! Aw, man!

Christian: Just putting that out there.

Ellen: This show is canceled. How come you keep doing this?!

Christian: Welcome to the microscopic world. So, 10 out of 10 effectiveness, they cannot die. And I for one, welcome our new overlords.

Ellen: If they could ever get over the size of a hair.

Christian: I believe one of the Ant Man movies features these guys, by the way.

Ellen: Oh yeah. I think I remember seeing them floating around in there.

Christian: On to ingenuity, how smart they are. Examples of this could be tool use, interesting techniques in combat.

Ellen: Pro strats.

Christian: Yeah. This guy has none of those. 1 out of 10.

Ellen: Oh, he min maxed.

Christian: They know how to eat and reproduce. Moving on.

Ellen: Oh my god these poor babies.

Christian: Well, just real quick what they eat, which is interesting. They eat fluid from other things, like algae, lichens, moss and even other microscopic animals including other tardigrades.

Ellen: Oh- wait. Okay. Hold on. So they eat fluid from these things?

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: What type of fluid? Do I want to know?

Christian: Well, you know, water-based protein stuff, the innards of other microscopic things.

Ellen: Gross. Okay. All right. Sure.

Christian: Moving on to aesthetics, how cute they are, how beautiful they are, or how the opposite of those things they are.

Ellen: I mean, you can't really see these guys. Right? I feel like they have to be disqualified.

Christian: So under a microscope, I would give these guys a 6 out of 10.

Ellen: Okay, that's fine.

Christian: They're sort of cute, I guess.

Ellen: You know what I think they look like?

Christian: What?

Ellen: Manatees.

Christian: That just reminded me of another one of their nicknames.

Ellen: What?

Christian: Moss pig.

Ellen: Moss pig. They look more like pigs than bears. I'll give them that.

Christian: Yeah. So like I mentioned earlier, they have four pairs of legs, the weird alien telescoping mouth. They also are chonk.

Ellen: They are, oh, they're so fat and round. They look like if you, uh, like touched them in any discernible way, like if you were able to, it looks like they would maybe have the texture of a balloon.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: Or like they look- they look inflatable to me. They look like a balloon animal.

Christian: Like you would see on a parade route or something.

Ellen: Yes! Oh my gosh! Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade. Tardigrade float. I got to see it.

Christian: But it's, like, flesh colored and...

Ellen: Ooh... No.

Ellen: So yeah, that's 6 out of 10 for aesthetics.

Ellen: I think that, thinking about the way that the tardigrade looks, I think that the color that they are has a lot to do with how cute I think they are. Because once you suggested flesh colored, they stopped being cute immediately.

Christian: Well, I think colorations of these guys are usually... Like someone colored it after the fact.

Ellen: Oh sure. Like CGI, sort of.

Christian: Something like that. So because usuallym I think under the microscope, they're mostly transparent.

Ellen: That makes sense.

Christian: Yeah. Or, if you see electron microscope images of them, they just have to pick a color for that. That's not really what the color is.

Ellen: Hmm. Uh, I'm gonna say purple. I think they're purple.

Christian: Yeah. So conservation status, not evaluated.

Ellen: Wow. Surprise, surprise.

Christian: Probably not hurting.

Ellen: Probably fine. I mean, if literally five consecutive extinction events couldn't take them down, I don't think we have to worry about them. I don't think they need our help is what I'm saying.

Christian: They'll probably outlive us, in all honesty.

Ellen: We probably need help from them more than they need from us.

Christian: So earlier I mentioned the anhydrobiosis, that is actually one kind of what's known as cryptobiosis

Ellen: Crypto... biosis?

Christian: Yeah. So this refers to, just states in general that it goes into to avoid dying.

Ellen: And this is just one?

Christian: This is one kind. So this one is water driven.

Ellen: Okay.

Christian: They can also do anoxybiosis. So this is when the water they live in is low in oxygen, because they still need oxygen. They normally absorb oxygen through their... I say skin, but it's really whatever that outer layer is.

Ellen: Their membrane.

Christian: Yeah, yeah. So during this state, they stretch out and lower their metabolism. So they stretch out their legs...

Ellen: Awww.

Christian: So increasing surface area.

Ellen: There you go.

Christian: And their muscles are able to absorb enough oxygen to survive.

Ellen: Okay. That makes sense. Interesting. Do you- would you find these guys typically in freshwater or saltwater or does it matter?

Christian: I believe both.

Ellen: Okay.

Christian: Um, and usually close to the bottom with like silt and that kind of thing.

Ellen: Oh, sure, sure, sure. You're not going to find them just like floating around?

Christian: You probably could. I wouldn't look for them there.

Ellen: I wouldn't look at them at all.

Christian: I mean, cause all you'd be doing is like, I don't know, collecting some water.

Ellen: And just hoping for the best.

Christian: Getting like, an eyedropper and putting it on a microscope slide.

Ellen: Oh my God. I cannot imagine something more boring.

Christian: So yeah, that's the tardigrade.

Ellen: Very good. That's a good friend. It's a funky little dude, huh?

Christian: It is.

Ellen: I feel like they, in recent years, have had quite a few crests and troughs of popularity. You know, I feel like they will spike every once in a while where suddenly everybody will be talking about them all the time, and you'll see a bunch of like memes about them and stuff like that. And then people will kind of get burnt out on them and forget about them for like a year or two, and then all of a sudden everybody will talk about them again.

Christian: I think part of that is because the studies around how they handle space have been done in the past decade or so.

Ellen: That makes sense. That's true. We were just talking very recently about that thing where a bunch of tardigrades, what, crashed on the moon or something like that? There are a bunch of tardigrades on the moon.

Christian: I mean, if they're there, they're in a suspended state so.

Ellen: There's probably like a whole bunch of them just floating around in space. What if they're aliens though? Have you considered that? Have you considered that they might be aliens?

Christian: Maybe.

Ellen: Okay, so. Hear me out.

Christian: Uh-huh...

Ellen: ...They're aliens. That's all the details I have.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: What if- wait, you said there are millions of years old?

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: How old? Were they around at the same time as dinosaurs?

Christian: Before, probably.

Ellen: Oh, okay. I was about to say, like, or did they just mysteriously appear coincidentally at the same time as the giant meteor that wiped out the dinosaurs?

Christian: You know, I wasn't there at the time.

Ellen: Okay, Christian. Play with me in this space.

Christian: I'm over here dodging dinosaurs with the microscope.

Ellen: Like, "hold on, I need to take water samples!" I'm saying, okay, so you weren't there so you can't technically prove that they didn't come in on the giant meteorite that wiped out the dinosaurs.

Christian: Do you come in on that meteorite? Dun dun dun!

Ellen: I'm just saying you've only known me for a few years so you don't know either.

Christian: Matrix.

Ellen: That's not what that movie was about.

Christian: Pretty sure I remember there being dinosaurs.

Ellen: No, that was Keanu Reeves. I know you always get them confused.

Christian: Okay. That's the end of my thing.

Ellen: Thanks babe. You did great.

Christian: Thanks.

Ellen: Before we move on to my animal, I just want to let y'all know real quick that we have a Patreon and it has some really cool stuff on it like access to a feed of the show with no ads so you can skip the commercials, and also some other really cool stuff like we send out photo prints and a patron only discord and all sorts of really neat stuff. So if you want to support us and help us grow and help us get bigger and better, just check us out at patrion.com/justthezooofus, and for this week I would like to thank our patrons, Briana Feinberg, Krystina Sanders and the Jungle Gym Queen.

Ellen: Thanks y'all.

Christian: Thank you.

Christian: Alright Ellen, what do you bring to this animal space this week?

Ellen: Well I suggest you settle in, get yourself a drink, a blanket, get nice and comfy cause we're going to be here a while.

Christian: Well, I'm sitting.

Ellen: This week, I have the platypus. Okay. I should specify: the duck-billed platypus, being the mammal. There is a apparently a type of beetle that's also called the platypus. And this is not that.

Christian: You can't just jack a style like that.

Ellen: Well, tell that to the people that named the platypus.

Christian: Dear beetle people...

Ellen: No, it was the mammal people that named it the platypus that had already had that name. Like the beetle had the name first.

Christian: Dear beetle people, get over it.

Ellen: Get over yourselves. Honestly. Make way, there's a new platypus in town.

Christian: So what is the word platypus... Does that have some sort of significance there?

Ellen: It comes from Greek, meaning flat foot.

Christian: Ah, okay.

Ellen: Yep. So the scientific name for the platypus is Ornithorhynchus anatinus. And this species was submitted by Stephanie Phengchanh, Erica Carr, and the Jungle Gym Queen. So thanks y'all! And I'm getting my information from the Australian Museum and Queensland Government's Department of Environment and Science. If you've never seen a platypus before, it is a little mammal. It's furry, it's brown, has big thick tail and has a big leathery bill on the front of its face, just like a duck.

Christian: Leathery?

Ellen: Yes. Don't worry. I'll explain a little more later. Okay. They are about 20 inches or 51 centimeters long, and about 3 pounds, or 1.36 kilograms. So maybe like a cat, cat-sized but with very short stubby little legs. Not as tall as a cat, but about the same body size. You can find these little dudes in Eastern Australia and Tasmania throughout freshwater river systems. Their taxonomic family is called ornithorhynchidae. Now, taxonomy for the platypus. Boy, it's a roller coaster. It's a wild ride. The platypus is the only surviving member of its taxonomic family. Its closest living relative- you know, what do you think its closest living relatives are? If you could pick, there's literally only one animal on this planet that you could- well I mean it's four different species of a type of animal, but there's literally only one animal in this world that you could say they're related to. What do you think it is?

Christian: For some reason, I don't know why it is, but I think of the echidna.

Ellen: Ah, you got it. It's the echidna!

Christian: I must have read that somewhere, then.

Ellen: Yeah, probably. Um, so yeah, their only living relatives are the four different species of echidnas. So platypus and echidnas make up the order monotremata, these are monotremes. Have you ever heard this word before? Monotreme?

Christian: I think so, I don't remember what it means.

Ellen: It was one of those ones that I heard it and I was like, it was definitely one of the terms bouncing around in my brain but it didn't necessarily- I didn't know off the top of my head what it meant. So I looked into it. Don't worry. These are the only egg-laying mammals, and their name "monotreme" is actually a reference to the fact that they have a cloaca. So both the egg laying and the cloaca are traits that are shared by reptiles and birds, but not by any other mammal. So there are actually a few ways in which the platypus is strangely similar to reptiles and there's a reason for that. The reason for that is that monotremes diverged from the non-egg-laying mammals, that lineage being called the "therian" line, like the therian mammals are the non-egg-laying ones. So monotremes diverged from the therian lineage about 166 million years ago.

Christian: Wow.

Ellen: Yes. And the therians include both placental mammals and marsupials.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: So monotremes split off before even them. So long, long time ago. So just to put that into some sort of perspective, because it's a very long period of time: cetaceans, which are whales and dolphins and stuff like that, they branched off from the rest of the even-toed ungulates and started to transition into becoming aquatic 50 million years ago.

Christian: Wow...

Ellen: Yeah. So that was like, a third of the amount of time that monotremes were split off from mammals, and they turned into whales.

Christian: Which is crazy, by the way.

Ellen: Yeah. So that's just to kind of give you some perspective of the sort of timeframe we're working with here, that they've been separate from other mammals for 166 million years.

Christian: Gotcha.

Ellen: This is why you'll, a lot of people will call the platypus sort of primitive in some ways because it has a bunch of traits that are left over from reptilian ancestors that the rest of the mammals don't have any more. They got rid of those traits, but the platypus still has them. You can call them primitive in the sense that most mammals don't have those traits anymore, but I mean the platypus is still alive. It's still here. It's not primitive. It's still here.

Christian: This probably suggests there were more monotremes like them at one point.

Ellen: Oh yeah, definitely.

Christian: But now this, you know, this small group is just what's still here.

Ellen: Yeah. So platypus and echidna both live in Australia, but there was at one point a line of monotremes that lived in South America because way, way, way back during, you know, the times when the continents were not where they currently are, South America was on the same like mega continent with Australia. So there was a branch of monotremes that landed there, and then after they split, they were still there, but they've died off by now. Yeah. But so just to give you a sort of idea of what kind of anatomical mess we're about to get into with this animal, the platypus is quite the unique little delight.

Christian: Alright.

Ellen: Yes. So I'm going to start with effectiveness just like you did. I give the platypus a 9 out of 10.

Christian: That's very good.

Ellen: It's excellent. First up, I want to talk about their bill because that's probably the most noticeable feature of the platypus. So though it is kind of shaped like a duck's bill, the platypus bill is not as hard and rigid as a duck's bill is. You know, like a duck's bill is kind of similar to like, bone or something like that. It's very, very hard. Um, the platypus bill is not like that. It's actually covered in a leathery skin, though it does have bone support. So if you look at the skeleton of a platypus, if you look at their skull, they actually have bones going into the bill, and like they form the sides of the bill, but the front- they like curve inwards and stop. The bone doesn't go all the way around.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: The bone doesn't form the entire bill. It just kind of provides the support for it.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: And the rest of it is skin. So now here's where the bill kind of pops off a little bit. Inside of this-

Christian: Like literally pops off?

Ellen: No, it doesn't literally pop off.

Christian: Just like the cartoons!

Ellen: No, it's not like that. It's not like Daffy Duck when he like, something explodes in his face and his bill like, turns around to the back of his head.

Christian: Duck hunting season.

Ellen: No, this is where the bill gets wild. The bill is equipped with both mechanoreceptors and electroreceptors. So it has these little sensors in its bill that can detect changes in pressure as well as electrical pulses in the water around them. And these are electrical pulses that are made by muscle movements of its prey. So if anything's moving around in the water, it can not only feel like the actual movement, but it's actually detecting the tiny, tiny, tiny little electric signals that your muscles are sending out. That's insane.

Christian: Yeah. I mean that's like sharks, right?

Ellen: Yes. This is the same sort of mechanic that you see in sharks and stingrays, which is wild! That's insane. Like, so echidnas actually have a little bit of this, not to the same degree that platypus do because platypus do, you know, all of their hunting and feeding in the water and echidnas don't. Echidnas are terrestrial. So it's thought that the reason that echidnas have some of those leftover electroreceptors is that they come from the same ancestor as platypus, they just don't need those receptors anymore. So they're kind of vestigial, really.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: They don't need them, but they just still have them because they haven't necessarily lost them yet. Because they're not hurting them. Right? So it's pretty interesting. So yeah, these electroreceptors help the platypus find really, really small prey, even in really, really murky water. So when they're swimming around in very murky water, what they actually do is they close their eyes completely while they're diving. So they close up their eyes, they close up their ears and their nose and everything and they are diving around in the water guided only by sensing electric signals. Really crazy.

Christian: Yeah, for sure.

Ellen: It's very cool.

Christian: So, what kind of bodies of water, is it usually a moving water? Stagnant water?

Ellen: It could be moving water, but it's not very deep. Think like, streams and rivers and...

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: Not very deep water because they are still semi-aquatic. They're not completely, they don't live their whole life in the water.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: Yeah. They actually have to come out of the water to breed, lay their eggs, stuff like that. So kind of on like riverbanks, and near ponds and stuff like that. But they can swim and moving water. It's no problem.

Christian: Sure, sure, sure.

Ellen: So they're actually really good swimmers, which I'll get to in a second. But so what they do eat is just little critters that they catch in the water. So these could be like bugs or shrimp or tadpoles, or stuff like that. Now this is what's interesting: instead of teeth, their bills are lined inside with these pads that have ridges on them. And those ridges are what they use, they- what they do is they catch food and then they mash those ridges together and like kind of grind the food with these ridged pads.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: And that's how they mash up their food and eat it. Yeah. So they don't actually have teeth. They're not the only mammals that don't have teeth though. Like we've talked about anteaters, like we talked about the tamandua, they don't, they don't have any teeth.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: So it's like, hey, if you don't need them, what good are they doing you?

Christian: There are other non-mammal creatures that have a similar sort of...

Ellen: It reminded me a little bit of the cownose ray's grinding plates that we talked about.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: So similar to that, just these plates with ridges in them that they use to mash their food. So next I want to talk about their tail. A lot of people think that it looks like a beaver tail. It does have that sort of same round flat look, but it's covered in hair. I think a beaver's tail is usually just like bald skin, right?

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: So the platypus tail is very broad and rather than when you're thinking of maybe an otter's tail, you think of something that's narrow and streamlined. This is more of a thick, broad tail. And the reason for that is that they use it for stabilizing themselves while they're swimming, but also for storing fat deposits in their tail.

Christian: That makes sense. I think we, didn't we recently talk about something that does... does that?

Ellen: You're going to have it to be more specific. I'm sorry.

Christian: There was something recently that it was storing fat in a place that I wasn't expecting.

Ellen: Oh, penguins that store fat in their feet, to keep them from freezing on the ice.

Christian: Yeah! That's what it was.

Ellen: Yeah, that was kind of a funny one. But yeah, so platypus store fat in their tail. So that's, that's good for them. That's a good idea.

Christian: I wonder in which dimension does it grow as the fat deposit deposits?

Ellen: Probably the thick factor, right? Like it probably gets more thick.

Christian: What if they get just bigger than they have more speed?

Ellen: What?

Christian: It just gets wider and wider.

Ellen: Oh my gosh. So they, you know what's funny? They actually don't use their tails to generate thrust in the water., like you might expect them to.

Christian: Well, never mind.

Ellen: I'm actually like right now about to talk about that. So I want to get into the Halloween spirit a little bit by looking at the platypus skeleton. It's a spooky, scary skeleton segment. I'm getting this information from an article by the University College London by Jack Ashby, on April 13th, 2018, the title of the article is "A Tour of the Platypus Skeleton" that I found really, really interesting. I really liked it. So this is where I saw like, the platypus skull and everything like that. The skeleton has some really interesting similarities with lizard skeletons, the most noticeable of which being that their legs are held straight out to the sides rather than underneath the body. So this is like a lizard. Like a lizard's legs are splayed out horizontally, that's how the platypus is. They're kind of like a big hairy lizard.

Christian: This kind of explains why I think they look weird when they're swimming.

Ellen: They do look weird when they're swimming. Yes. Yeah. Cause their legs are splayed out to the side. So when you see something like an otter or a an aquatic mammal, like a seal or something, usually their limbs are held very close underneath them. Right?

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: Platypus, not necessarily, cause they got big old lizard feet. There's one adaptation they have that really gives them an advantage that is very noticeable when you look at their skeleton. Probably not so much when you look at them with all of their skin and fur on, but when you look at their skeleton, you can really tell that their shoulder blades are comically large. Their shoulder blades are just enormous, and they kind of jut out, like to the sides almost. They have just huge shoulder blades, like the bones are just gargantuan! They're so big. So the idea there is that that probably is because it allows for their arm and shoulder muscles to get huge. So they might not look like it, but platypus are jacked. They're just completely ripped. They have like, huge arm and shoulder muscles underneath all that fluffy little fur. Now, the reason for this is that they kind of need really strong arms because they have to dig burrows to nest in, and to raise their babies in, to lay their eggs in and stuff like that. But they also swim with their front arms.

Christian: So just their front arms?

Ellen: Kind of just their front arms. So they're, they're generating their speed in the water with their front arms. Yeah. So they're steering themselves with their back legs and tail, but they're not actually generating thrust.

Christian: Interesting.

Ellen: Yeah. So they're kind of just like pulling themselves through the water with their front legs. So that's why their arms are so, uh, buff.

Christian: And they have webbed toes, right?

Ellen: They do. Yeah. All of their feet are webbed. So that helps them, you know, generate some drag in the water. But yeah, they're just pulling themselves through the water with just sheer muscle. Arm muscle. Pure gains, baby.

Christian: I think I just realized why so many people imagine them having beaver tails.

Ellen: Why?

Christian: Because that show Phineas and Ferb draws it like that.

Ellen: Oh yeah, that's true. You know what's funny about Phineas and Ferb? So there is a platypus on the show named Perry the platypus. If you've never seen the show, it's a cute little show, but they have a pet platypus named Perry the platypus and he is blue, right?

Christian: Like a teal almost?

Ellen: He's like tealish blue and he leads this double life where he's actually a secret agent. He's like a crazy like spy and does all these cool, like saves the world and stuff all the time. But here's the weird thing about Perry the platypus, in the show he makes this weird little noise that I cannot replicate. I looked up a video of the sound that a platypus actually makes... It's pretty spot on. Like it's pretty much exactly the way that they made him sound in the show.

Christian: That's so weird how they were so selective on which pieces to be correct on.

Ellen: It's like the one thing about the show that makes any sense at all.

Christian: I don't think I've ever seen Perry be in a body of water either.

Ellen: Yeah. Like in the show he's just walking around on two feet. Right?

Christian: And also like more modern mammals like with the legs underneath them at all that.

Ellen: Yeah. So that is not correct about the platypus. It's just really weird. Like the one thing that they got right was the sound that he makes.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: It's really weird. But so anyway, yeah that's the- that's the platypus skeleton.

Christian: Got it.

Ellen: It has some interesting things about it. So I want to talk a little bit about their self defense because they actually have a little bit of self defense mechanisms, but not like 100%. So the male platypus have sharp spurs on their heels of their hind legs only.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: And these spurs are connected to glands that produce venom. The venom causes extreme pain.

Christian: Oof.

Ellen: Yeah. So it won't kill a human. It could possibly kill a smaller animal like a dog or something, but it probably won't kill a human. I don't think there's any recorded cases of a human dying from being stung by a platypus.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: But it will hurt very, very badly. Now this spur, it can be used in self defense, but only males have the spur. So females can be born with the spur when they're babies, but it falls off before they become adults.

Christian: Really?

Ellen: And they lose the spur. So only the males keep the spur and only the males produce venom. So the fact that females don't have this venomous spur leads scientists to believe that they only use it to fight each other, and that the males are using it to fight each other over territory.

Christian: Well...

Ellen: So it's not really super useful for like defending yourself from predators. So I couldn't give them like, full self-defense points for that because it's not really what they use it for. It does, however, make the platypus really dangerous to handle.

Christian: Yeah, I imagine.

Ellen: So if you see one just to go ahead and don't touch it, just leave it alone.

Christian: I mean, the place where I would be to see them, I would hope you would know not to touch anything.

Ellen: If you're already in Australia, just follow the rule of thumb and if you see something just don't touch it. But, so I did deduct one point, and I deducted that one point for how clumsy and awkward they are on the land.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: So they're, they're pretty good at swimming around. They're good swimmers, they're good diggers. But when it comes to actually walking around on land, the combination of how short and stubby their legs are and how splayed they are to the sides, and also the fact that they have webbed feet, it just makes them really bad at walking around. They're just bad at it. Maybe I wouldn't have taken off a point for that if they didn't have to come on land sometimes. Right? They're not fully aquatic.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: So they're just kind of trash on land. Yeah. So if one is chasing you down, you'll be fine. So that was my deduction. Now here's a weird one. I did not either reward or deduct points for this, I just wanted to talk about it and I didn't know where else to put it, so here you go: platypus and echidna do not have stomachs. They just don't have them. So the food goes straight through the throat, into the intestine and that's it. So this is really interesting. I got this information from a National Geographic article by Ed Yong titled "How the Platypus and a Quarter of Fishes Lost Their Stomachs." This was from December 3rd of 2013. It is kind of thought that because their diets are really, really high in shellfish, shellfish are high in contents that neutralize stomach acids. So there's no point in having a stomach that produces digestive enzymes if all of those enzymes are just going to be canceled out anyway by the kind of food that they eat. So it's kind of like a waste, I guess, of metabolic activity to even have a stomach at that point if the things that you're eating don't require any sort of stomach acid to break them down. So they've just kind of skipped the stomach altogether. Now that's just like a suggested- an idea about why they don't have stomachs. And it's really weird because the only other vertebrates like this are a bunch of fish. It's just monotremes and then some fish. No reptile is like this. No bird is like this. No mammal is like this. It's just monotremes and like, some types of fish.

Christian: Crazy.

Ellen: Platypus, what are you doing? Platypus. Get your life together. What are you doing? Why are you doing this?

Christian: When you say no to updates for too long.

Ellen: They just opted out of the Windows update. You know what they, they kept hitting "remind me in 4 hours" for 166 million years. That's, so that's the effectiveness for the platypus.

Christian: Neat.

Ellen: This is a weirdo, but I love him for it. So ingenuity for the platypus, I couldn't find a lot on them and like, their behavior in the wild. I gave them a 6 out of 10 because they seem like they know what they're doing well enough, but I mean, nothing spectacular. So something that they do that I thought was really interesting that helped them turn a weakness into a strength: to help them with mashing up their foods, since they don't have any teeth, they'll sometimes scoop up gravel or pebbles with the rest of their food and roll it around in their mouths to help break up the food that they're eating.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: Yeah, so we a little bit talked about the axolotl scooping up rocks and using rocks to help it, but that was more for a balance thing. That was for like, to supplement its buoyancy. This is different. The platypus is not like, eating the rocks. It just will scoop them up in its bill and then use the rocks to help break down the food that it's eating.

Christian: Man, if only it had some sort of thing in its mouth that was hard as a rock...

Ellen: If only there was, if only there was some sort of bony structures that they could have in their mouths that might let them break food down. I don't know if there's any sort of animal that has anything like that in their mouth, but maybe it's something they could consider looking into. So I want to talk a little bit about the reproductive cycle of the platypus, or at least the sort of life cycle of the platypus since it's, since it is so different from other mammals. Right? So after mating the female loads up on food and she fills her tummy and her tail, of course, with fat. And then what she does is she digs herself a little nesting burrow with those big buff, very strong arms. She digs herself a little nest, she climbs inside and then she actually blocks off the entrance with dirt. Yeah. So she covers up her own little nest and she clogs it up. This is both to protect the nest and also to insulate it so it traps warmth and humidity inside.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: For the duration of her nesting period. So then she lays her eggs. It's usually two, but it could be, it could sometimes be one or three, but it's usually two. She incubates them for a few weeks until they hatch, and then she nurses the baby for a couple of months until they're ready to leave the borrow. So she does produce milk, so platypus do produce milk like other mammals, but not necessarily the way that other mammals do. So she essentially sweats the milk out through these little patches on her skin. So it's a little different from the way that other mammals produce milk. I mean, other than the fact that she, you know, lays her eggs rather than giving birth to her babies, you know, the whole like child rearing process is kind of similar to other mammals where she nurses them for a while and takes care of them in the nest and then kind of sets them free a few months later. So moving on to aesthetics, the last segment for the platypus. I give them a 7 out of 10.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: They're vaguely unsettling, in some ways, to look at because the bill doesn't necessarily look like it is part of the animal. Right? It looks like it's stuck on.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: Because so when you think of like, a bird's beak or a duck's bill, it very clearly transitions into the face very smoothly. Right? Like it goes like from bill into the face, whereas the platypus's bill has this sort of like, fold over it. It like rolls in such a way where it definitely looks like it's just like... Kinda glued on. It definitely doesn't look like it's supposed to be part of the rest of the animal.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: Especially if you're looking at the mammal part of it and thinking like, "oh it's like a little otter or a beaver or something." It definitely is unexpected and very awkward in its sort of design. So you know, famously when the platypus was first discovered by European scientists, they assumed it was a fraudulent hoax and they kind of poo-pooed it and they threw it in the trash because they said like, basically like, haha, very funny, nice troll. And then they threw it away because they didn't think it was real. So there's actually kind of a, a little bit of context for this. The first specimens that made it back to Europe were either skins or taxidermies, but the problem is that around the same time there were a lot of vendors that were selling what they called "mermaids"...

Christian: Oh boy.

Ellen: That were actually just monkeys, like taxidermied monkeys glued onto fish tails.

Christian: Oh, boy.

Ellen: Yeah. So that was definitely happening. There definitely were a lot of fraudulent, you know, people saying, "Oh look at this crazy animal," but they had really just taken two animals and taxidermied them together in some weird way. I think that they were already kind of in a skeptical mood because of that. So I kinda can't really blame them too much for being like, "Oh, this is fake news" and throwing the platypus away.

Christian: This is kind of the basis for that ad series for Lunchables, with the jackalope and the platypus. Do you know what I'm talking about?

Ellen: Is the platypus in that? I thought the platypus had like, something weird about it.

Christian: It's just a regular- I mean, a talking platypus, but an otherwise regular platypus. But the jackalope is just a rabbit, you know, with deer antlers on it.

Ellen: Right. Same- I think they thought it was something like that. Right? Like, oh somebody just thought they were being funny and just like tacked another part of an animal on here.

Christian: Yeah. Yeah.

Ellen: So that's what they thought was happening, and it wasn't until a while later that a preserved specimen was able to make it back in such a way that convinced scientists that it was actually real.

Christian: What century would that have been like?

Ellen: I don't- Oh my God, I do not know.

Christian: Well I was trying to think, could they have just taken a picture?

Ellen: No, definitely before that. One thing that I did want to mention is that there is this picture floating around the internet....

Christian: Oh, yeah.

Ellen: There is a- it's a real photograph that is floating around the internet that is often posted on social media saying that it is a baby platypus. And it is very, very cute. It is very, very fluffy. It has big round eyes and the face of like, a duckling.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: It has like a duckling face with little little cute cheeks and big round eyes. And it has one back leg up in the air and the photo is extremely cute, and it is also extremely FAKE.

Christian: Dun dun dun!

Ellen: It is a doll. So the photograph is a legitimate photograph, but the photograph is of a doll. So the doll is made by Russian artist Yulia Leonovich, and it's a cute doll but it was sold like a year ago. It's not available anymore. You cannot buy it.

Christian: And to give the artist credit, you know, that was what the picture was used for, to sell the doll, right?

Ellen: Yes. It was a listing for the item on deviantArt.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: So this was a deviantArt picture that got just kind of saved, and then like somebody put it on Instagram or something and then it just took off from there. And now you'll see everybody sharing it saying, "Oh look how cute baby platypus are." And it's like, well okay, this doll inspired by baby platypus is super cute, sure. But it's not real. So let's talk about what real baby platypus look like.

Christian: Yay!

Ellen: They look like little balls of dough.

Christian: I love it.

Ellen: They're not fluffy at all. They have, they have like some... Like baby hairs on them, but they're very, very short. They look like velvet, sort of. And they're extremely chubby. Like they're just little dough balls, and they're covered in fat rolls and they have these teeny, teeny, teeny tiny eyes. And you can't even see their eyes under their fat rolls. That's how fat they are. Yeah. And they look like a mess. Even the adult platypus has really small eyes. So, the baby platypus is cute enough on its own. It doesn't need a doll making people think that they're, like, I don't know. I don't know why this is something that bothers me because honestly, in the grand scheme of things, who cares if you thought you saw baby platypus but it was just a doll. Like who cares? It's just something that bothers me.

Christian: I don't know. So speaking of which, what is the plural form of platypus?

Ellen: I'm glad you asked. I have detailed notes on this.

Christian: Oh boy.

Ellen: So the name platypus comes from Greek, the suffix I suppose, of "pus" at the end, P-U-S, means foot. And the plural of that should be "podes," P-O-D-E-S.

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: So you could make the case that it should be called platypodes or something like that.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: Nobody says that. Come on. That's ridiculous. Nobody says that. Now some people will say it's supposed to be platypi. That is very wrong, because that is assuming that the -us ending comes from Latin, just because it ends in -us. But it doesn't come from Latin. It comes from Greek, so you do not use a Latin plural ending for a Greek word, so it's definitely not platypi.

Christian: Makes sense.

Ellen: But we're speaking English, so you could say platypuses, that's fine. You can say platypus. That's fine. Don't say platypi. It's definitely not that. Platypodes is... Okay. You sound kind of weird, but it'll pass. It sounds like the Well Actually Guy. So I say platypus, just because I feel like platypuses sounds weird, platypi is wrong, platypodes sounds wrong. I just say platypus. On that note, there is a little thing that floats around about platypus on the internet, where usually as a caption on that exact same picture of the little platypus doll with a leg up in the air, people will a lot of times put a little caption or comment on there saying, "did you know that a baby platypus is called a puggle?" You can call it a puggle I guess if you want...

Christian: I mean, you can call it whatever you want, really.

Ellen: Because language is arbitrary and meaningless. So you know, just make up whatever you want, I guess. But there's also another one, like a similar sort of like internet rumor about what the baby platypus is called that I like way better and it has platypup. That's also totally made up, but I like it better than puggle. So yeah, there is actually no word for the baby platypus.

Christian: I'm so upset.

Ellen: It's just a baby. platypus. So you can call them a platypup if you want, and you can call them a puggle if you want, I guess. But don't expect anybody to know what you're talking about.

Christian: Platyput me out of my misery.

Ellen: Those sound waves don't look good. Those aren't going to be fun to edit.

Christian: Have fun, future Ellen. I love you.

Ellen: Anyway, the platypus is still pretty cute. Uh, it is very otter-like, and you know I'm into that. They have cute little webbed feet and you know I like that. So I dunno. I still think they're on the cute side. Little weird, but cute.

Christian: Are we going to come back to the cloaca thing?

Ellen: The cloaca thing? No, we're not. I was just going to leave it alone. I figured I gave you all the information I needed because this is a safe for work show, so no, I'm not going to go into more detail about the cloaca.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: It was a thing that I really just wanted to mention to highlight the similarities that it has with lizards that makes it so different from any other mammal. Right? That's just one of those really, really weird things about it.

Christian: Even though looking at them, they look like they would have more in common with birds just because of the bill.

Ellen: That's the weird thing, right? That's one of those weird convergent evolution things, and also their venom is another example of convergent evolution because the venom that they produce shares a lot of chemical properties with venom that is made by snakes.

Christian: Does the platypus hold the title of the only mammal with venom?

Ellen: No. There are other venomous mammals.

Christian: Interesting.

Ellen: There are actually a few... The slow loris produces venom... There are actually quite a few other venomous mammals, but it is a very interesting, and there's just so much about it that is just so bizarre and like the most random stuff, like it not having a stomach. Why? Why? That's so extra. Why would you do that?

Christian: It's the opposite of extra.

Ellen: But yeah, to wrap things up for the platypus, their conservation status is Near Threatened according to the IUCN Red List. So there are a lot of factors contributing to the decline of platypus numbers, but one of the biggest is climate change. There are a lot of droughts and really weird rain patterns that are affecting the freshwater habitats that they live in, but there's also a lot of extraction of water for industry and agriculture that's depleting the freshwater sources that they need to live in. So they're facing a lot of habitat loss and they're also dealing with water pollution in their areas. Pne organization that you can check out if you're interested in helping support the platypus is the Australian Platypus Conservancy.

Christian: Nice.

Ellen: Yeah. So go check them out if you want to dig more into the platypus and see how you can help them out. So that wraps things up for the platypus.

Christian: Thank you honey.

Ellen: No problem.

Christian: It was very interesting.

Ellen: I thought so too. I really enjoyed learning about this animal. I've talked for so long. I've taken up so much of these good people's time, but I'm not done yet. I have some audience responses to share and I kind of farmed for them a little bit. Last week, I talked about the roly poly.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: We mentioned a few names for the roly poly, and I kind of was interested to see what other people actually call roly polies because some of the names that I saw listed for them were not known to me. So I posted both in the Facebook group and on Twitter asking people where they live and what they call a roly poly. Most people, according to my graph, 62.2% of people who responded said roly poly. However, the second highest number of responses was for the potato bug. 16.2% of people who responded said the potato bug. And it seemed to be like most of the people who said potato bug lived in the North. People that said potato bug lived in places like the Midwest, Canada pretty much anywhere north of where we live.

Christian: Interesting.

Ellen: Yeah. So the potato bug was pretty common. A few people said doodle bug, the doodle bug, which was represented in North Carolina and Texas. And this was the one that I had never heard before in my life: slater.

Christian: Oh yeah, I saw this.

Ellen: Yeah. So a few people responded from New Zealand and said that they call them slaters, and this was something that I had never heard before.

Christian: Interesting.

Ellen: But yeah, that was interesting. I always feel like we're kind of exchanging information here, right? Like I come on the podcast, I take the microphone and I teach you some things, and then once I'm done, I step away and you guys teach me some things back. So thank you for teaching me the name of the roly poly in New Zealand.

Christian: That's very good.

Ellen: Yeah, that's all I had. I just wanted to talk about the conversation we had about roly polies. So thank you so much for spending this time with us, listening to us talk about our animal friends, the tardigrade and the platypus. This was a couple of unique critters this episode, huh?

Christian: Yeah, they were both taxonomically...

Ellen: Unique.

Christian: I was going to say complicated, but for different reasons.

Ellen: An unintended theme this week of oddballs.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: That was our theme this week. Thank you so much to everybody who has been listening to this show and recommending us to your friends and talking about us on Twitter and all that cool stuff that you guys do. You really stoke the coals that keep this flame burning, so thank you. You can connect with us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. Just search the title of the show and that'll get you to us. Please come join our group and hang out with us cause it's really fun and great.

Christian: I'm on discord now.

Ellen: Oh yeah, you are on discord now, aren't you?

Christian: I'm having to get used to using discord for things that aren't video games.

Ellen: It's fun but yeah, we are on the Podcast Junkie discord server, so come hang out with us on there. We have our own channel and it's really fun. If you have an animal species that you want to hear us review, you could submit those to us either on social media or to me directly at my email address, which is ellen@justthezooofus.com, and a transcript of this episode will be available at our website, www.justthezooofus.com and our final note: thank you, Louie Zong for the use of your song "Adventuring" from your album Bee Sides.

Ellen: Thank you so much.

Ellen: We love it.

Ellen: Do I get my email address?

Ellen: No, just me.

Christian: Is christian@justthezooofus.com taken?

Ellen: The problem is that I don't trust you with it, because you will just send me really unsettling information throughout the day. You'll just, I'll be like, Oh, an email from christian@justthezooofus.com, I'll open it up and it'd be like, "you've eaten six tardigrades today," and I'll be like, great.

Christian: I'll program a timer that just...

Ellen: Sends me just really disturbing animal facts every five minutes. Can I unsubscribe from your weird animal fact newsletter?

Christian: Uh, legally, yes. You have to be able to unsubscribe, but anyway.

Ellen: Okay. Thanks. Bye.

Christian: Bye y'all.

23: Roly Poly & Keel-Billed Toucan

Christian: Hi everyone, this is Christian Weatherford.

Ellen: And this is Ellen Weatherford.

Christian: And you're listening to Just the Zoo of Us, a podcast where we rate your animals both favorite and... Opposite of favorite.

Ellen: What's the opposite of favorite, Christian? Quick, hit me with that.

Christian: Extreme dislike. So we take those animals and we give them a rating out of 10 for three categories. I don't remember if we mention those categories here or not, but it just in case we do, here it is future Ellen: effectiveness, ingenuity, and aesthetics! I'm bringing good energy.

Ellen: Christian and I are not zoological experts but we do a lot of research to get ready for the show, and we make sure that the information we're giving you is reliable and it comes from good sources. So feel free to reach out to us if you are an animal expert and want to chit chat about anything we've gone over on the show. We really love that.

Christian: Yes, and a lot of you are actual zoological experts.

Ellen: Mhmm, and we love you. Well, last week you talked about the matamata turtle, and you went first. So this week it's my turn to go first.

Christian: Excellent. What do you have for us this week?

Ellen: This week I am talking about an animal that I'm pretty sure almost everybody in the United States probably has some hands on experience with, but probably doesn't actually know very much about.

Christian: Oh?

Ellen: This is the roly poly.

Christian: Ah!

Ellen: Some other names you might know the roly poly by are the pill bug, the doodle bug or the woodlouse.

Christian: I do like the name doodlebug.

Ellen: Yeah, you know, I keep seeing references to it, but I don't know of anybody around here who calls them that.

Christian: It might be a regional thing.

Ellen: Yeah. For context, we live in Florida, and I don't know of anybody here who calls them doodlebugs. But the name that I have always known them by is roly polies, so that is the name that I will be using for them for the entirety of the segment and also my life. So, sorry. The scientific name for the roly poly is Armadillidium vulgare.

Christian: Okay. So, you know, obviously... Armadillo. Right?

Ellen: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's the name of their genus, and it does come from armadillo because they do roll up into a little ball. That's where they get the name roly poly, cause they roll up into a ball. And then "vulgare" comes from the Latin word for like, common. So this is kind of just the common woodlouse, the one that you're going to find pretty much everywhere in our country that we live in. This species was requested of us by the What Are You Podcast, and this is very charming because this is a show about animals by 4-year-old Dylan and his mom, Megan. It's so cute. I was listening to it a little bit earlier today and it's so precious. So we love y'all, Dylan and Megan, and hope you like our bit on the roly poly.

Christian: Excellent.

Ellen: So, uh, before I launch into it, I'm getting my information from the University of Michigan's Animal Diversity Web, as well as a video that I watched on roly polies from PBS's Deep Look series. To introduce you to my dear friend, the roly poly, their adult size is up to a whopping half inch, or 1.27 centimeters.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: Yeah. It's about the size of your fingernail or perhaps... The eyeball of a chicken. You're gonna find these pretty much all over the world. They've established populations on every continent except Antarctica, and they are originally from the Mediterranean. So they started there, and then they just kinda took off everywhere, so you can find them all over the world now. Uh, but that does not necessarily mean that they are invasive. They're actually pretty good for whatever habitat they live in.

Christian: Interesting.

Ellen: Yeah, they're really cool. Now their taxonomic family. Buckle up for this one cause it's a bumpy ride.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: Armadillidiidae.

Christian: Nice. Is that all one word?

Ellen: Yes it is. And also, I had to look up how it's pronounced and I practiced it before this.

Christian: Whoa. Good on you.

Ellen: Thank you.

Christian: I cannot say I did the same.

Ellen: I really put a lot of effort into this one because I knew it was going to trip me up, and I wanted my editing process to be easier.

Christian: Alright.

Ellen: This is the family that contains the other woodlice. There are other species of them other than the roly poly, but they're not as cute. So I'm not talking about them today. Sorry.

Christian: Which is the singular and which is the plural?

Ellen: Lice is the plural, and louse is the singular.

Christian: Got it.

Ellen: This is just like mouse and mice.

Christian: Makes sense.

Ellen: Yeah. I'm going to ask you, uh, what other like, common animal do you think is related to the roly poly?

Christian: Um, I would think millipedes.

Ellen: That's an excellent guess, but it is not correct. I'm sorry. Roly polies and woodlice are isopods, which means they are not even a little bit related to bugs.

Christian: Wow!

Ellen: Not even a little bit. They're not related to bugs or millipedes, not insects, not millipedes, none of that stuff. Actually, being isopods, they are terrestrial crustaceans. They are more closely related to crabs and lobsters and shrimp. So they're actually in the same class, Malacostraca.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: Now, there is actually a pill millipede, which looks and functions exactly like a roly poly. They're easy to tell apart when you see them side by side, but if you were to just see a pill millipede like out and about, you would reasonably guess that it was a roly poly. But they're actually, they come from completely different evolutionary branches.

Christian: Huh. I'll have to look those up later.

Ellen: I mean, they look like a roly poly, I don't know what else to tell you.

Christian: I'm wondering what do I have in my memory? Which one is it?

Ellen: So the roly poly's totally gray and the pill millipede has more of a brownish color and some variation on their colors, whereas the roly poly's pretty much a solid plain gray color.

Christian: Don't worry, I'll get my reality in order later.

Ellen: Okay. We'll figure it out. But so the roly poly and the pill millipede, having nothing to do with each other evolutionarily but looking and functioning pretty much exactly the same way is another example of convergent evolution. I think the last time we talked about convergent evolution was with the vultures.

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: Yeah. So this is way even farther back than that cause these are completely different animals. Um, but so keep in mind, keep that in your head that they are crustaceans and that they come from isopods which come from the ocean. They have come out of the ocean onto the land, so just keep that in the back of your head cause I'm going to revisit that later.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: To get started on our rating system. I'm going to start with effectiveness. And if this is your first time joining us, we define effectiveness as how good an animal is physically at accomplishing its goals and doing what it's trying to do on a daily basis. So these are physical adaptations that let the animal do their thing. I'm giving the roly poly a 6 out of 10.

Christian: Really?

Ellen: It's okay. It's okay.

Christian: Just tell me it has a rollout attack.

Ellen: An attack would be a strong word to use. But that was the first thing I was going to talk about, was their habit of rolling up into a ball. So there's actually a word for this behavior. It's called conglobation.

Christian: Interesting.

Ellen: Yeah. Which you can see the root word of "globe" in there. Con-GLOB-ation. That's how I remember it, at least. So you use this to describe roly polies, but also the pill millipedes and also armadillos. That's the same rolling up into a ball as a defense strategy. That's, that's how they do.

Christian: Sandshrew.

Ellen: Yeah, just like it. So I gave it some self-defense points for this conglobation thing. So other isopods can't do that because their exoskeletons are not segmented in the same way. So the roly poly has adapted to be able to do that whereas other isopods haven't. So that's definitely something that's like, kind of unique to them. Unique to them and the other members of the Armadillidiidae family, I'll say that. They have another self defense strategy that I did not know about. When they are threatened or stressed, they can actually secrete an unpleasant odor to deter predators.

Christian: Aha!

Ellen: Yeah, I didn't actually know that they did that.

Christian: "I am now round and smell bad!"

Ellen: Same.

Christian: Predator's just like, "I'm confused, mostly. Goodbye."

Ellen: Yeah, so... Now, I really couldn't give it that many points for this because the roly poly is very small and curling up into a ball doesn't really do it very many favors, because there are a lot of predators that have kind of figured that one out. Like, there are a lot of bugs that eat them that have just evolved long noses that can poke inside of their ball and pry them open. Or like, birds have long, skinny beaks so that they can pull them open and like it's just... It's not that effective of a defense. Like they've got it, but it doesn't do much.

Christian: If they happen to be on a steep hill though...

Ellen: There you go. There could be an escape.

Christian: Then they're a moving target.

Ellen: It could be an escape. Yeah.

Christian: Until the hill ends.

Ellen: Yeah. Another effectiveness point that I gave them was for being able to go a surprisingly long time without eating. So in a lab they were documented surviving for up to three months with no food.

Christian: So what is it that they eat?

Ellen: They are detritivores. So they eat rotting plant matter, they eat decaying plant matter, leaf litter, stuff like that. But they also have some sort of herbivorous tendencies where they will kinda eat any plant matter. But most of what they eat is like, dead and decaying plants.

Christian: So the root of that word, is it pronounced DE-tritus or de-TRI-tus?

Ellen: That's a fantastic question. Moving on. So another interesting thing that I didn't know about them that I learned that I thought gave them kind of, I had to give them some props for is that rather than laying eggs on the ground or in a nest, the female roly poly carries her brood of eggs around in a brood pouch called a marsupium. And this is a pouch that she has on the underside, kind of like where you would guess her belly to be.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: And she keeps her eggs under there, and she just holds them there and carries them around until they hatch. So when they hatch, the baby roly polies have a special word for their baby form. They're called mancas, or maybe it's, it might be mancae, like a-e? This is like one of those weird Latin things where like in Latin, a word that ends in a, when you make it plural, it becomes -ae, but like we're not speaking Latin, so like you don't have to use it that way. I don't know what the plural form is. I'm going to say mancas.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: But so the little baby mancas, they will actually stay in the mom's marsupium for like a day or so before fully emerging.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: So yeah, I just thought that was kind of interesting that they've evolved this sort of little egg transportation device. I thought that was beneficial to them because that means they don't have to lay their eggs and then just, you know, leave them there because then that puts the eggs at risk of being eaten or destroyed. I think that like finding a way to protect your babies is a good idea.

Christian: And then when they roll up, the eggs are in the safest place.

Ellen: Yeah. So I gave the roly poly some good mom points.

Christian: Cool.

Ellen: I know I really had to break my habit of talking about all these bad moms.

Christian: Say, did you hear that, quokka?

Ellen: Yeah, take notes. Take notes. So yeah, I thought those were pretty neat. Now I'm going to move on to talk about the deductions I took off for their effectiveness because there's a few.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: The roly poly has very poor perception. They have eyes, their eyes are on the front and on either side of their little head segment, which I didn't know that. But when you look at pictures of a roly poly, like zoomed in, they're actually kinda cute. They have eyes on the front of their face, but those eyes can't see for squat.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: The eyes can pretty much only detect the presence or absence of light and that's it. This is not the 4K experience. They can see- they can basically tell whether it's bright or dark, and that's it. They can't distinguish shapes or colors or any of that stuff. So, they can't see real good. They also don't have ears. Like sound is just not an option for them. That's not something they can perceive.

Christian: Huh.

Ellen: Yeah. They don't have ears at all, so sound is not a thing. Now they can detect vibrations. So they have these little tiny, tiny little hairs all over both their feet and their antenna, and kind of like along the underside of their exoskeleton, they have these little hairs and the hairs can pick up vibrations. So they can feel vibrations, and those vibrations are what trigger their conglomeration. So if they feel a heavy enough vibration, then it'll trigger them to roll up into a ball, but they can't hear anything. So that's not an option for them. I was just like, wow, that's garbage. I'm so sorry. That's like, jeez, you're missing out on a lot, my friends.

Christian: I guess for what they're doing, I guess that's all I need.

Ellen: I mean... Sure?

Christian: What are they gonna do run away?

Ellen: They could hide or something? I don't know. But so, yeah, kind of their most important method of perceiving their surroundings is actually chemical sensing. So they pick up chemical signals with their antennae, like I mentioned, how they're covered in those little hairs.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: And they actually communicate with each other using pheromones, which I'll talk a little bit about in the ingenuity section. The, I kind of have, my biggest deduction for them was that they really didn't fully transition into terrestrial life. They kinda, they came out of the water and they were like, okay, we got the legs... And that's about it. So they still actually have gills.

Christian: Whoa.

Ellen: Yes. They have gills on the underside of their body. Their gills have evolved to have these little air sacs in them that let them breathe air so they don't have to breathe in the water. But they do actually need to keep their gills wet to work. They need moisture in order to function. So that's why desiccation, which means basically drying out is a huge, huge, huge threat to roly polies. So this is why you always see them in the wet sort of in humid areas. You find them in wet dirt and mud and you always find them in places that are like a little bit damp.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: It's because they need it to breathe.

Christian: Huh.

Ellen: Yeah. Now they cannot swim, by the way, which seems counterintuitive to this whole thing. Cause it's like they really committed a hundred percent to living on land, but were like, "mmm, we're going to keep the gills though." Like why would you go that far?

Christian: It's like someone explained lungs to them once and briefly and then they were like, "yeah, I got this. "

Ellen: Yeah, we got the idea, we got the idea. We'll do that. Yeah. That's really what it is. It's, it's not ideal, honestly. They kind of got the worst of both worlds. Like they need it to be like a little wet but not all the way wet.

Christian: I guess this is also one of the things that really, really separate them from insects cause they have a whole other different way of getting air into their systems.

Ellen: Yeah. With insects it's, it's wild. It's something like, they take air in and then it doesn't go to like any sort of lung place, it like distributes the air over the body?

Christian: Yeah, they basically absorb it through their skin.

Ellen: It's the wildest thing. But yeah, so the roly polies don't do that. They need moisture in the air to breathe, which I think is not a great strat, but what are you going to do.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: Anyway, so to move on to ingenuity, we define ingenuity as behavioral adaptations that an animal has that let it like, figure out clever ways of defeating obstacles in its path or figuring out cool solutions to problems they face every day. I gave the roly poly a 4 out of 10 because it is, you know, like that.

Christian: It's probably a little generous, honestly.

Ellen: So what I thought about was that I thought about how I think I gave the sloth a 4 out of 10. I have been, I think I've been generous with my ingenuity scores, but I'm giving the roly poly a 4 out of 10. There's a couple things a roly poly does that kinda help it along. When roly polies are born, what they will actually do is they will try to find a new place to live that's better for them than the place they were born in. So when they're first born, they will actually try to leave. They will try to go as far away as they can from the place where they were born. But then, if it takes too long for them to find a better place for them to live, they'll turn around and come back to the place where they were born. Because they figure, well,, it'll take me too long- Like it's taking too long for me to find somewhere that's good for me to live. I'm wasting energy trying to find somewhere else. I'm going to go back to where I was born because I know I can survive there. So they'll turn around and come back.

Christian: Yeah, that's pretty smart.

Ellen: Yeah, that was, that was a little bit more processing power than I thought they had in the ol' roly poly noggin. So like mentioned earlier, they communicate with each other with pheromones and roly polies actually do kind of live socially. They kind of hang out with each other and they use pheromones to let each other know that they're there, basically, since they can't see or hear each other. Roly polies produce pheromones and signal to each other their presence, but the concentration of that pheromone increases during mating season. So males, when they pick up the female pheromone, they can tell by the concentration of that pheromone whether that female is ready to mate or not. So that's pretty cool.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: And also, when a roly poly is kind of looking around for a new place to live, if it moves into an area where it detects the pheromones of other roly polies, that's its signal that this is a good place for me to live because it says, "Oh, there's other roly polies here. That means they're thriving and surviving here. This is probably a good place for me."

Christian: Interesting.

Ellen: Yeah, so it's not necessarily like territory marking how other animals will kind of leave pheromones to let other animals know not to go there. This is kind of the opposite. They're like, "Hey, this is a cool roly polies city. Like, come hang out with us and all of our roly poly buds."

Christian: That's fun.

Ellen: Yeah. They're like leaving little signs like, "Hey, this is good. Come live here. Come live here in roly polytown with us." Actually, some studies have shown that socialization is a really important survival mechanic to roly polies and that roly polies kept in captivity, even when provided with all of the basically criteria that they need to survive, when separated from other roly polies, they die very quickly.

Ellen: Aw...

Ellen: Yeah. They will also cannibalize each other.

Christian: Oh.

Ellen: Yeah. Sometimes.

Christian: Like, living?

Ellen: Yeah, like living. But it's like if one of them is really weak, so if one of them is injured or something like that or maybe if it's like mid-molt, cause they do have to molt their exoskeletons just like crabs do...

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: Then they're kind of in a vulnerable spot and roly polies will kind of eat each other and that's just the way that they do. So, that was just part of the 4 out of 10.

Christian: Welp.

Ellen: I wouldn't describe them as bright. Oh, another thing that they do, I don't know if I mentioned this earlier or not, they will actually flee from bright light. So if there's a bright light on them, they will pick up on that and they will run and try to as fast as they can, they try to find somewhere dark to hide because bright sunlight can dry them out faster and that can kill them.

Christian: Oh, so they think they like, just walked out of the shade or something.

Ellen: Yeah. Like they think there's like, bright sunlight or something and so they just run and try to find somewhere to hide.

Christian: Okay. I was about to say, cause it's kinda the opposite when you're talking about sensing a predator.

Ellen: Yeah, no, it's, it's just the light. Like they, they know that if they're in really bright light, they know that they can dry out more quickly so they will run and try to find somewhere dark.

Christian: Okay, makes sense.

Ellen: Yeah. And it's kinda funny, I read something about how they travel, not in straight lines, but in zigzags that they alternate turning left and right. Like they don't just go straight forward in a path, they turn left and then they turn right and go back and forth like that.

Christian: Wonder why that is.

Ellen: The thing that I was reading said that it was like exploratory. Like they're looking for new resources and they can cover more ground by zigzagging rather than going in a straight line. So I thought that was pretty interesting.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: They're okay... They're okay. Just okay. I think that typically when we're giving animals scores, most animals that are alive are going to have pretty good scores because they've evolved, right? Like they've gone through millions of years of adapting in ways that are supposed to be beneficial for them and let them survive better. I think that the roly poly is doing so incredibly well and so very populous because they have like, anywhere from 1 to 300 babies at a time.

Ellen: Woah.

Ellen: So I think they're playing the numbers game. I think it's not because they're particularly good at the things that they're doing, but I think it's that they make very many of them.

Christian: That is a strategy.

Ellen: But so, yeah, they're just, they're friendly boys. Like they just, they eat dead plants and we need them to do that anyway. So they're actually like really good for if- Like you want to have them around, because they keep your soil nice and like- a lot of people will see them in like a garden or something and think, Oh no, they're a pest. But they actually don't normally eat live plants, so you kind of want them to keep around because they'll eat your dead plants and they'll keep your nutrients cycling. They're just, they're good to have around. I'm actually going to talk about that a little bit more in a few minutes. Before I move on to that. I want to talk about their aesthetics.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: Aesthetics is self explanatory. I give them a 9 out of 10. Oh my God, they're so cute.

Christian: Huh.

Ellen: And I thought to myself, when I look at one zoomed up all the way up close, it's going to be hideous and I'm going to hate it and I'm going to be freaked out and I'm going to regret that I picked to do the roly poly to talk about. But then I watched this video, this PBS video, the Deep Look video, and it had all these zoomed up roly polies and they're so cute. It's so cute. They have the little face with the big round eyes on either side of their head and they got the little antenna that they're wiggling around all the time and have all those little feet. And then when they roll up in a ball, it's so cute. I love roly polies. 9 out of 10. And I only gave them a 9 out of 10 instead of a 10 out of 10 because when you look at them from the underneath, it's a little weird. It's kinda gross. Also, roly poly babies are actually really cute.

Christian: Oh yeah?

Ellen: The mancas that I talked about, so when they're born, they're white, they're completely white, and they're kind of squishy looking and I really like those. So yeah, I'm just very charmed by roly polies.

Christian: I'm gonna have to look at all these pictures later.

Ellen: Yeah, they're really cool. So, I'm assuming most people have probably picked up and bothered roly polies before like I have, but this is the, the same one that you're gonna find if you go out. I bet if we walked outside right now, it would take us less than five minutes to find a roly poly.

Christian: It is nighttime.

Ellen: It is. That's why I said that. Cause it's dark. That's when they come out.

Christian: Yeah, but we won't find them.

Ellen: We have flashlights and stuff.

Christian: But it's spooky.

Ellen: Here, we'll set a-

Christian: You know what month it is right now?

Ellen: Oh that's true... Oh it's October. Oh you're right. We're not going out at night.

Christian: Too spooky.

Ellen: Yeah. So yeah, that's my 9 out of 10 for aesthetics. They're very cute. So to wrap things up with the roly polies and miscellaneous information, their conservation status is not evaluated. That is not a surprise. They are doing fine. Do not worry about roly polies. Now, roly polies are detritivores like I mentioned earlier, they eat mostly dead and decaying plant matter. Roly polies are commonly used in bioactive enclosures for captive habitats. So pet owners or anybody who's keeping captive animals, a lot of times they will have what's called a bioactive enclosure. So this is an enclosure for their pet that is sort of self-contained, like a fully functional ecosystem rather than just like, a tank with like some fake plants and some mulch on the bottom. This is like, there is legitimate like soil with plants planted in there that are growing, and bugs and roly polies and all those sorts of things that are living in the tank to sort of move the ecosystem along naturally rather than you having to like, treat it for all this stuff. So I was looking all this stuff up because I was talking to my childhood best friend Laurel who is preparing a bioactive enclosure, and in preparing this bioactive enclosure, one of the things that she was doing was collecting roly polies. So just going outside, gathering them up and toss them in there. And that the roly polies are really, really useful for that. She said that in her enclosure, they're really, really good for cleaning up waste, keeping fungus in check and cycling nutrients to enrich the soil for the plants.

Christian: Yeah, so I guess the key here is to not have an animal in there that would eat the roly polies.

Ellen: She mentioned that, you know, for people who keep things like tarantulas or millipedes or something like that that would bother to eat the roly polies, then yes, they would totally do that.

Christian: Well, but here's the thing. If you have just one clutch of roly polies hatching a tank, that's a huge number of those little guys, isn't it?

Ellen: I would imagine that at that point there just wouldn't be enough stuff for them to eat and they wouldn't...

Christian: Oh, That's where the cannibalism comes into play, I bet.

Ellen: Perfect. That's a self-solving problem.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: But uh, Laurel also mentioned that roly polies actually need calcium to keep their exoskeleton nice and strong. So she said that for her captive roly polies, she uses eggshells and cuttlefish bones as calcium supplements.

Christian: Where do the cuttlefish bones come from?

Ellen: So, cuttlefish bones are actually really, really common, bird owners give their birds cuttlefish bones. These are the white oval-shaped things. Yup. That's what that is.

Christian: You're blowing my mind. I didn't know cuttlefish... Wait, are these actually from cuttlefish?

Ellen: Yes. And I will relate with you on this because I also did not know that they were actual cuttlefish bones until she told me this like three days ago, and I freaked out because I worked at a pet store where I gave cuttle bones to birds on a daily basis for two years in a row, and not once did it click in my head that those were actual cuttlefish bones.

Christian: I'm still working on the fact that cuttlefish even have bones.

Ellen: Well, it comes from the cuttlefish.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: It's not exactly the same as our bones, but it's kind of an internal shell inside of their body that helps them float. A lot of bird owners feed them to their birds for calcium supplements, and apparently they're good for roly polies too.

Christian: That is insane.

Ellen: Yeah, I, I'm not kidding when I say that I handled them every single day for two years in a row and never even once realized that they come from actual cuttlefish. Did not know that. So that's the roly poly.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: Yeah, I just, I feel like a lot of people probably have handled them many times in their life and probably have very fond memories associated with roly polies, probably of playing with them and digging them up out of the ground and throwing them at your siblings and doing all sorts of stuff like that as kids, so...

Christian: Eatin' em.

Ellen: I'm sorry, what?

Christian: Eatin' em.

Ellen: I saw somewhere on the internet... I saw on the internet that you can eat them, and that people sometimes cook them.

Christian: So...

Ellen: Oh no.

Christian: No. So pop culture references here. Um, do you remember the animated movie that was in Peru? Cusco's New...

Ellen: The Emperor's New Groove.

Christian: The Emperor's New Groove. Do you remember when they went to that restaurant and they had giant pill bugs- Sorry. Giant roly polies?

Ellen: Now, hold on. Were they pill bugs or where they pill millipedes? Pill millipedes are bigger.

Christian: No, these were giant. Bigger than any insects. So this was dramatized of course.

Ellen: Okay. I mean you could have just gone with the grubs in The Lion King, cause I'm pretty sure some of them were roly polies too.

Christian: Also A Bug's Life. Disney's A Bug's Life has two roly polies in there.

Ellen: Oh yeah! Roly polies in there!

Christian: They were acrobats!

Ellen: I forgot about that! Yeah. So I think that roly polies are very culturally important and I feel like people in, at least in our part of the country hold them a very high regard and have very fond memories of them and thoughts of roly polies. I think a lot of people love roly polies but maybe don't know that much about them. So hopefully now you do.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: Yeah.

Christian: Well thanks hun.

Ellen: No problem.

Christian: You blew my mind several times in the past 35-ish minutes.

Ellen: I'm glad I could. So before we move on to Christian's animal, I would like to take a really quick minute to mention that we have a Patreon. So if you want to help us grow and get better and better, you can support us on there and also get access to some cool stuff like a feed of the show with no ads in it and a patron discord and all sorts of really cool stuff, so come check us out at patrion.com/justthezooofus and for this week's episode, I want to thank our patrons, Brianna Feinberg, Krystina Sanders, and The Jungle Gym Queen.

Christian: Thanks y'all.

Ellen: Yeah, thank you everybody! All right, Christian, what do you have for us this week?

Christian: This week, I have the keel-billed toucan.

Ellen: Yessss! I love this bird.

Christian: The species was submitted by our friend Kyle Rauch.

Ellen: Thank you Kyle.

Christian: Yes, thank you.

Ellen: You can take it down a notch now.

Christian: So the scientific name for this one is Ramphastos sulfuratus. It also goes by the common name rainbow-billed toucan.

Ellen: Oh, how lovely.

Christian: For obvious reasons, when you see a picture of it. I'm getting my information for the keel-billed toucan from two different websites run by the Cornell Lab of Ornithology, one being Neotropical Birds, found at neotropical.birds.cornell.edu, and also All About Birds, found at allaboutbirds.org. Also from Animal Diversity Web, found at animaldiversity.org.

Ellen: University of Michigan's Museum of Zoology.

Christian: Cool.

Ellen: Yeah!

Christian: So a little bit of some stats about the keel-billed toucan.

Ellen: Yeah. Let me hear these stats.

Christian: The males average about 554 meters- sorry... Yes. 554 meters.

Ellen: WHAT.

Christian: Half a kilometer,

Ellen: This is like the 50-foot-tall quokka! So we've got a 50-foot-tall quokka, a half meter- half kilometer toucan... Fight.

Christian: I'm pretty sure it goes to the letter. Okay. So males average 554 millimeters in length...

Ellen: There we go.

Christian: Or 22 inches, whereas the females average 520 millimeters or 20 inches in length. They weigh around 400 grams, which is 14 ounces. So less than a pound. Their location extends from Southern Mexico to Northwestern Venezuela. So talking about Central America in the very northern part of South America.

Ellen: Very cool.

Christian: Yes. They belong to the taxonomic family Ramphastidae. Uh, their notable evolutionary relatives are other toucans. The family is known as the Neotropical near passerine bird family.

Ellen: Oh, that was a lot of words.

Christian: Yes. I'm gonna dunk right into it with the effectiveness.

Ellen: Yes.

Christian: I'm giving this birb an 8 out of 10 for effectiveness.

Ellen: That's good!

Christian: So it'\s main thing here is, unsurprisingly, it's big bill.

Ellen: Big ol' beak.

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: Big ol' schnoz on him.

Christian: So for those that maybe have never seen a toucan...

Ellen: Have you eaten fruit loops before?

Christian: Have you played the latest generation of Pokemon RPG games?

Ellen: Oh, It's in there too. Lots of toucans.

Christian: Yes. So they're birds that fly, like most birds are prone to doing.

Ellen: We literally just talked about penguins. We JUST talked about penguins.

Christian: Sorry. All the good birds. And they have, so their feathers are mostly black. They have a big banana-shaped bill, takes up the majority of their face real estate. And just so you know, there are several kinds of toucans in this particular toucan has a very colorful beak. I imagine that's why this one was the specific one submitted to us.

Ellen: It's the most fabulous.

Christian: Yes, but more on that later. Talking about effectiveness now. So first of all, they use those big beaks to take the husks off fruits and nuts.

Ellen: What that beak do tho?

Christian: And I keep saying beak, but I think the appropriate term is bill.

Ellen: What that bill do tho?

Christian: I'm sure there's a scientific difference that I do not know. The length of that bill is useful for getting at fruit that is on branches that are too small to support the full weight of the bird.

Ellen: Oh, I see. That makes sense.

Christian: So people have have a couple of different theories about what that bill is and is not used for. A lot of times in the family, something like this would be used for attracting mates. Like in the case of the peacock, where the male peacocks have big showy, you know, tail feathers. But the thing is with the toucan, or at least this species of toucan, there's no real difference between the bills between male and female. So they don't think it's used for attracting mates.

Ellen: I have some ideas about what it's not used for.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: Kebab skewers.

Christian: Correct.

Ellen: Air traffic signaling.

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: That's as far as I got.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: Do you have any?

Christian: I mean I know. I'm kind of at an advantage here.

Ellen: Of things it's not used for?

Christian: Laparoscopic surgery.

Ellen: Thank you. Was that so hard?

Christian: Now what's really interesting about the bill is one recent proposal on one of its uses comes from allaboutbirds.org, so one idea is that maybe it's used as a heat sink. So they put a toucan in front of a infrared camera and could see the dispersal of heat in the toucan, and they saw that the bill is significantly hotter than the rest of the bird.

Ellen: Oh really?

Christian: So the thought is it's doing the same kind of thing that the ears are used for in elephants.

Ellen: You know, that makes sense.

Christian: Yeah. So they'll disperse heat into that extremity, and then it's used as a heat sink like in a computer. And then that heat is transferred to the air.

Ellen: You said a heat sink like in a computer?

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: That's over my head. I don't know what you're talking about.

Christian: So for those unfamiliar, lots of CPUs- the main thing in your computer- it's the CPU chip, and then on top of that sits a heat sink. Think of it as a series of metal plates that sit on top of your CPU. And then on top of that is a fan. Usually.

Ellen: I know about that part.

Christian: Yes. So the fan is moving air over those metal plates, and those metal plates are in contact with that CPU. So the heat transfers from the CPU into the heat sink, which has a ton more surface area than the CPU itself. So with all that surface area, it's able to disperse that heat better than the CPU itself.

Ellen: Like a toucan's bill.

Christian: Yes! A toucan's bill is big, right?

Ellen: It has the more surface area.

Christian: It's almost a third of its entire length.

Ellen: That actually makes sense.

Christian: Right.

Ellen: I wasn't expecting a computer science lesson.

Christian: Right? And then finally, another thing they use that big bill for is when they have arguments over who gets to use a tree for nesting.

Ellen: I love that.

Christian: So they either use natural or woodpecker-made holes in trees to nest. They don't normally roost in those, but they will nest in those.

Ellen: Okay.

Christian: And when there's a clash over who gets the tree, they, they smack their bills against each other.

Ellen: That's so funny.

Christian: It's very lightweight. Cause you know, they still have to fly.

Ellen: Yeah.

Christian: So I imagine it's an interesting sound that that would make. They swallow pitted fruits whole.

Ellen: Pitted fruits meaning like...

Christian: An example would be a peach. But not a peach. Cause they don't have peaches.

Ellen: They swallow it whole, what do they do with pit?

Christian: Can you guess?

Ellen: Ooh, fun game! Do they just digest it?

Christian: So, two things happen, and it depends on the size.

Ellen: Whatever you're about to tell me is gonna just destroy me.

Christian: No, no, no, no. So one, I think a lot of people can guess: if it's small enough, it just passes through their digestive track.

Ellen: Sure.

Christian: They poop it out.

Ellen: No big deal.

Christian: Right. And that helps with dispersing seeds and stuff and et cetera.

Ellen: That's exactly what the plant wants them to do.

Christian: Yes. The other option: also dispersal, but it's different. So if it's too big, what it'll do is after it's done digesting all the fruit flesh from around the pit, it just regurgitates the pit.

Ellen: Oh, blech. Nope, don't need this.

Christian: Yep. And neither of those things hurt the bird.

Ellen: Oh it's gotta be, you gotta have a pretty tough kind of digestive system then.

Christian: And probably a very good judge of the size of things that it's eating. Cause if it hurts going down, it's probably gonna hurt coming out.

Ellen: Gross.

Christian: Either way.

Ellen: I've seen really cool videos of toucans throwing their food up and like, catching it out of the air.

Christian: Yep. That's kind of how they eat. They'll pick things up with the, the end of their bills and then just kind of flip their head back and swallow it. So that's what they're doing. They're swallowing.

Ellen: It's so cuuute. It's so cute! That makes sense. I mean they can't...

Christian: It's how I take pills.

Ellen: They can't exactly chew things.

Christian: And while they eat mostly fruit, it also sometimes eats eggs and hatchlings of other birds along with small lizards, snakes and beetles.

Ellen: Oh...

Christian: Mostly fruit. But it gets a little bit of protein from animal sources.

Ellen: Mostly fruit, but also, smidge of infanticide. You've got to keep the diet varied.

Christian: So that's effectiveness. 8 Out of 10.

Ellen: Okay. Good bird.

Christian: Ingenuity: 7 out of 10. So when they're nesting, they tend to come back to the same tree.

Ellen: Oh, okay.

Christian: I thought that was interesting, to have that, enough mental capacity to remember where the tree was.

Ellen: It's home base.

Christian: Here's something they do with those regurgitated fruit pits: they use them to make nests.

Ellen: Whaaat! Really!

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: This is like penguins with their pebbles.

Christian: So to quote Neotropical Birds, the article I was using: "as a result, the young are reared in a nest with a cobblestone lining of fruit pits the size of large marbles."

Ellen: Whaaat! That's crazy!

Christian: Right?

Ellen: That's awesome. Like they don't necessarily need to go gather all of the nest materials. They can just make some. That's so cool! What an interesting like... Resourcefulness kind of.

Christian: Yeah. I'm sure the seeds aren't happy because that's not what they wanted to do.

Ellen: Hey, wait a minute...

Christian: I'm a wall.

Ellen: I didn't want this at all.

Christian: This is like that movie 300. Oh, here's my favorite little thing about their ingenuity. I wasn't sure if I should count this as ingenuity, but I am.

Ellen: Sure.

Christian: They're known together in small groups of 6 to 22 individuals...

Ellen: That's a lot.

Christian: And they chase each other from branch to branch playing ball.

Ellen: No, they don't. Stop it.

Christian: One bird throws a fruit in the air and another one catches it.

Ellen: NO.

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: They do this by themselves?!

Christian: In groups of like 6 to 22, yeah.

Ellen: I mean like, I mean like they do this in the wild.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: What! That's the cutest thing I've ever heard!

Ellen: Right?

Ellen: I love it.

Christian: So I thought that was pretty smart. You don't really see animals that play a lot.

Ellen: I feel like engaging in play is a sign of some real cognitive activity. Right? Like doing things for pleasure instead of just because you need to do them to not die.

Christian: Yeah. Basically.

Ellen: Man. How charming is that?

Christian: Right? That's my favorite part.

Ellen: Yeah.

Christian: On to the last: aesthetics. Full 10 out of 10.

Ellen: Yes, absolutely.

Christian: I feel like any less than I would have been burned at the stake by our listeners. Specifically Kyle.

Ellen: And also me, your wife who's sitting right next to you and you're well within stabbing range.

Christian: I'm just kidding. I agree with this score. First and foremost, pretty colors. And the colors are both on their bill and their body in general. So the colors for their body, mostly black, but also with yellow, red, white and blue because their skin is blue. So you'll notice that their feet are blue, and then the area around their eyes don't have feathers. Like the, like a very small area around their eyes don't have feathers, but their skin is blue so it adds a little blue accent in there.

Ellen: I don't think I ever really realized that their skin was blue. For a really long time, so way, way, way back in high school I did an art portfolio and one of the things I did for my art portfolio was a painting of a toucan.

Christian: Oh yeah?

Ellen: And it was a keel-billed toucan, it was the one you're talking about.

Christian: Oh, cool.

Ellen: So I actually do kind of remember having to make the feathers black, but also blue because they have that sort of sheen to them. Kind of like when we talked about the ravens, how they're black, but in the right light they also look blue.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: But for a while toucans are kind of my go-to. Like if I was just bored and I wanted to doodle something I'd usually draw a toucan, and then also they became kind of my, like, if I got new art supplies and I wanted to test them out, I would usually test them with the toucan because it's a really good way to test out all of your colors. But it's also a good way to test out your tonals and seeing how like faithful your shades of black are.

Christian: That's cool, that's cool. So you especially know this, so they primarily have black feathers and then the part of their feathers that are, like their neck, what we would describe as their neck and the upper breast are yellow and then on their underside towards the tail they kind of have a splash of red feathers and white feathers.

Ellen: I like that they kind of look like they have like a bib. It's like a little bib.

Christian: Yeah. So that's just their body feathers, cause then there's the bill. So the bill is a huge splash of color.

Ellen: It just pops off.

Christian: Yeah. Which is where they get their name. Green, red, orange and blue. All of those colors in there.

Ellen: Got everything.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: This is like, there's that concept in fashion where like, if you're gonna wear a big bold statement accessory, you should pair it with a subtle and understated outfit. They've got like the plain all-black, but then they've paired it with like this bright flashy beak.

Christian: Yeah, yeah. It's very good.

Ellen: It's very aesthetically successful.

Christian: Yep. And other toucans out there will have a similar color, but their beak is primarily just red and orangeish colors without all those bright accents in there.

Ellen: They're so cute.

Christian: Yep.

Ellen: So pretty.

Christian: So speaking of which, my next point for aesthetics was, you know, cute face. I think their faces are cute.

Ellen: They are! It's all nose.

Christian: And the eyes are cute too. I like their curvy shape. I just like the curve of their silhouette of like their overall...

Ellen: It does give them kind of an S shape almost. You know what I mean?

Ellen: Yeah, yeah.

Ellen: Like it sticks out. So it kind of gives them almost an S shape to their body.

Christian: I just had a weird thought of like a scythe, that was actually a toucan. OC do not steal.

Ellen: I was about to say, like, you might encounter this in your next D&D campaign that I'm DMing for you.

Christian: Toucan't possibly win against me.

Ellen: That would work really well against an adventuring party of two people.

Christian: Yes. Uh, final aesthetics point: their toes. Their toes are arranged in what's called the zygodactyl pattern, which means two forward and two back.

Ellen: Very nice.

Christian: Yes. So this is common in arboreal birds, or birds that would be doing a lot of walking through tree canopies. Toucans primarily do that. They walk and hop along branches. They do fly, but that's not for super long distances. It's like it's like to cross a river or a valley or something like that.

Ellen: From tree to tree.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: I mean, they're living in very densely forested areas so they don't really have to fly for very long distances.

Christian: And they're not migratory or anything, either. A couple of little miscellaneous items about the toucan. So, first and foremost, they are rated the least concern on the IUCN Red List.

Ellen: Oh, phew.

Christian: Which is surprising, right? Something that exotic you would think maybe might be in danger.

Ellen: They're also very popular though.

Christian: Yes. So while they are at least concern, their population is on the decline, mostly due to habitat loss. But still of least concern. Primarily because they just have a huge population in that area. There used to be a problem with the illegal pet trade, but since then there are very experienced, I suppose- the industry where they raise these birds in captivity now and breed them in captivity, so there's no reason to take them out of the wild.

Ellen: Sure.

Christian: That being said, they are very popular and very expensive pets. Couple thousand dollars, from what I understand.

Ellen: Are they legal to have as pets?

Christian: I don't know, honestly.

Ellen: Oh. Okay.

Christian: I'm sure. Like...

Ellen: It's just an exotic bird, right?

Christian: Yeah. If, I mean getting through the proper channels, I'm sure. You can't just go take one out of the wild though, I'm sure.

Ellen: Now, legality of keeping a pet and morality of keeping a pet are very different things.

Christian: Very true.

Ellen: There are a lot of animals that it is totally legal to have them as your pet, but don't do it though.

Christian: So funny thing, a lot of places in their native habitat, will just allow them to be out and about. Like they can come and go as they please in the houses.

Ellen: Oh, I like that! I would definitely invite one into my house. If they lived here, I would keep my windows open all the time.

Christian: They are in monogamous pairs when when they breed.

Ellen: Oh! So sweet. Is this like serial monogamy like we talked about with the penguin where it's like one partner at a time?

Christian: You know, I was trying to look for that specification because of, you know what you were saying about penguins. I couldn't find anything more specific than just saying monogamous pairs.

Ellen: Okay. If you are out there listening and you study toucans and you know about their mating habits, please follow up with us and we will include your expertise.

Christian: Yes. Oh, while I was doing this research, I learned a new word: altricial.

Ellen: Altricial.

Christian: Yes. So this describes something that is hatched or born in an undeveloped state, and requires care and feeding by the parents.

Ellen: A baby.

Ellen: Yeah. So a toucan is one of them. Humans are another. So the opposite of altricial is precocial.

Ellen: Precocial. Okay. Like a precocious youngster.

Ellen: Yes. Actually the same root. An example of this are horses.

Ellen: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. How they're born walking. Okay, that makes sense.

Christian: And finally, the toucan is the national bird of Belize, which is a country in Central America, it shares a border to the North with Mexico.

Ellen: Very cool. Awesome. I hope that someday we get to see some. We've seen some in zoos, I think.

Christian: I think so too, but maybe not this specific species.

Ellen: We have seen toucans in zoos, but they were not specifically the keel-billed toucan. But I would really like to see some in the wild someday, so whenever we make our way down to Central or South America, I'm sure we'll see some, we'll have to make a point to visit.

Christian: Yeah. That's all I have.

Ellen: All right. I don't have any audience responses either, so I guess we're just blowing through this one. It's okay cause we talked for a really long time.

Christian: We had some good animals.

Ellen: Yeah, we were content only this episode.

Christian: Definitely no goofs, not at the beginning.

Ellen: This is strictly serious. We are factual information only. We do not goof around here.

Christian: Mhmm. No goofs.

Ellen: No goofs allowed. This is a no-goof zone. Alright, well that wraps things up for us on this week's Just the Zoo of Us. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for everybody who's been listening, thank you to everybody who's been recommending us to your friends and family and coworkers and hairdressers and dentists and lawyers.

Christian: That person you met on the street yesterday.

Ellen: Yeah.

Christian: Should probably follow up with that person.

Ellen: Yeah. Actually make sure you give them your personal phone number. Thank you also to everybody who has been hanging out with us in our Facebook group. We love y'all. Y'all are the best, and everybody in our sort of social media circles. You can connect with us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram by searching the title of the show. That'll get you right to us. If you have an animal species that you want to hear us review, you can get those to me at Ellen@justthezooofus.com, and for our last note, we would like to thank Louie Zong for allowing us to use his song "Adventuring" from his album, Bee Sides.

Ellen: Yes. Thank you so much.

Christian: We love it. You want to hear it?

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: Alright, here it is.

Christian: Bye y'all.

Ellen: Bye!

22: Mata Mata & Emperor Penguin

Ellen: Hey there! This is Ellen Weatherford.

Christian: And Christian Weatherford.

Ellen: And this is Just the Zoo of Us, your favorite animal review podcast where we take your favorite species of animals, we review them and we rate them out of 10 in the categories of effectiveness, ingenuity and aesthetics.

Christian: You know, we say favorite animals, but I don't think anyone would call the botfly their favorite. Except me.

Ellen: That was also not requested by anybody. That was just you being vindictive. Anyway, we take your requests for species of animals and we review them comprehensively and rate them out of 10 in different categories. We are not zoological experts, but we do a lot of research to get ready for the show and we make sure that we're getting our information from trustworthy and reliable sources. So if you are a zoological expert, feel free to link up with us and let us know your thoughts and give us feedback and such. We're very thrilled to hear from people all the time.

Christian: Yeah, reach out to us, you reliable source, you.

Ellen: Yeah, thanks. We really appreciate it. That sounded sarcastic, but it wasn't meant to be, I promise. That's all I got for the intro, and I think that last week I went first. So Christian, it's your turn.

Christian: Okay. This week, I've got an animal that I think has a fun name, called the matamata turtle. Couple of different, not really spellings, but I guess arrangement of that name. You'll see matamata as one word, you'll see them separated by a hyphen, and sometimes by a space.

Ellen: Oh, sure.

Christian: And sometimes they won't even say turtle, they'll just say matamata. So...

Ellen: But it is a turtle, though?

Christian: It is a turtle. It is defo turt.

Ellen: Certified turt. Turtified.

Christian: The scientific name for this little guy, maybe not little, but the scientific name is Chelus fimbriata, and this species was submitted by Erica Carr and Miranda Lowrey.

Ellen: Thanks, y'all.

Christian: Thank you. And my information for this one is coming from some familiar sources: The Smithsonian's National Zoo and Conservation Biology Institute, the website is found at nationalzoo.si.edu.

Ellen: Nice.

Christian: And also from Animal Diversity Web, found at animaldiversity.org.

Ellen: Love them.

Christian: Yes. Let's talk about the matamata generally. So these guys can grow up to almost 45 centimeters long based on their shell. I'm not sure why, but all of the lengths that I found for the matamata was all based on the shell size. I'm not really sure why that is. Maybe that's just common in turtles.

Ellen: I guess it's probably because like, they can retract into their shell.

Christian: Well, and here's the thing. Most turtles, that would represent the majority of their length, whereas the matamata has a fairly long neck.

Ellen: Oh...

Christian: Yeah. So anyway, up to 45 centimeters long, which was about a foot and a half, and they can weigh 17.2 kilograms or 38 pounds.

Ellen: That's a chunky boy.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: Hefty turtle.

Christian: Where these guys can be found is in the Amazon and Northern South America, including Venezuela, Brazil, Peru, Ecuador, Colombia and Bolivia, and also the Island of Trinidad.

Ellen: Oh wow! That's cool.

Christian: Yeah. They belong to the taxonomic family Chelidae, these guys are known as the Austro-South American side-neck turtles, as in Australia.

Ellen: Oh, okay.

Christian: And what side-neck means is they bend their necks to the side when pulling them under the edge of their shell or carapace, rather than retracting it directly inward.

Ellen: Oh, okay. So they're coming at it from an angle.

Christian: Yeah. So these guys, they have a, of course a turtle shell, and these are primarily aquatic turtles. So this kind of gives you an idea of what they kind of look like. They have shells with big ridges. They remind me of Bowser, personally.

Ellen: Like, they're spiky?

Christian: Yeah, yeah.

Ellen: Okay, okay.

Christian: And they have webbed feet with claws, all four feet are webbed. They have that long neck that I mentioned earlier, and then that neck has fringes and like, almost wart-type things coming off of it. Their head is triangular, and they have a thin tube coming off of their nose, and small eyes and a big wide mouth. If you look at them from head on, it kind of looks like they're smiling.

Ellen: Okay!

Christian: And often with this kind of turtle you'll see them with moss growing on their shell and body in general. So that's kind of just to set the picture going forward.

Ellen: This is painting a really bizarre zoological picture for me. I'm imagining something very strange.

Christian: Yeah, yeah. Effectiveness, this is how good they do the things they do. Physical adaptations, built-in lasers. No, I'm just kidding. So for the matamata, I'm giving an 8 out of 10 for effectiveness, and some of the big points here are around camouflage. So the way the neck is, and the head, it is meant to look like foliage, like at the bottom of a body of water.

Ellen: That makes sense.

Christian: And also the tendency for moss to grow on the shell helps with this. Also, how they eat. Did not know this at all before researching the matamata, not that I was an expert in it to begin with.

Ellen: Yeah, I know nothing, so whatever you're about to tell me is going to be surprising to me.

Christian: Um, so out of curiosity, how would you guess that these, these things eat?

Ellen: With their mouth.

Christian: I guess you can assume they're, what, carnivores or plant eaters or?

Ellen: Um, let me think... Okay. You said it has a tube.... It has like a, like a narrow tapered mouth in some way?

Christian: Well, its nose has a thin tube.

Ellen: Okay...

Christian: But its mouth is big and wide.

Ellen: And a wide mouth. Hmm. I guess I would assume that they would maybe eat small fish?

Christian: Yeah, you're right.

Ellen: Oh, great!

Christian: So here's how they do it, though. They don't just go and chomp down on a fish in the water. What they do is they use this pretty unique method of capturing fish. So its bite is actually pretty weak, but what it does is, with is neck fully extended and there's a fish nearby, what it does is it- when the fish is close to its mouth, it quickly opens its mouth and it expands its neck...

Ellen: What.

Christian: To cause a sudden low pressure that sucks in the fish, and then they swallow it whole.

Ellen: This- so, I'm thinking of it as like the hose attachment of a vacuum cleaner.

Christian: Basically. Um, but it's crazy and I encourage everyone to go look at a YouTube video of this, but its neck expands in terms of diameter, to just basically suck in the water and the fish.

Ellen: So when I talked about the axolotl, I talked about how it has that really big wide mouth and it would suck prey in by opening its mouth very quickly.

Christian: Yes, it's that, but also not just opening its mouth quickly, it's also expanding its neck. So kind of compounding that effect.

Ellen: Oh, I see.

Christian: So think of it as having bellows underwater, and as you pull it open, it's causing a low pressure to suck in water. So that's what's happening.

Ellen: Wow. That's crazy.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: Huh. I guess that explains why its neck is so long, then. To just give it space.

Christian: It just, "wah," like inflates. So, yeah it's crazy. So they suck in the fish and let the excess water escape as things start to kind of close back up, and then they'll swallow the fish whole.

Ellen: Does the water escape back out through the mouth?

Christian: Yeah, it kinda like, half closes its mouth basically to let the water escape.

Ellen: Huh.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: Does it have any method to, I guess, separate the fish that it's trying to eat from anything else that may have gotten in there, like rocks or something?

Christian: I mean, I assume this is kind of a common problem for most reptiles underwater.

Ellen: Sure.

Christian: But it makes do, it just eats them whole. Alive.

Ellen: You take the good with the bad, I guess. Okay, so it eats the fish alive. It doesn't chew them or anything.

Christian: Yup.

Ellen: Huh. That's brutal.

Christian: Right? And the next point I want to give it was its nose, and I actually refer to it as a snorkel nose. Cause what it's meant to do is it just- so this turtle almost is always underwater, and it uses that snorkel nose just to expose the bare minimum of itself above the surface of the water to breathe. Now here's what's strange, a little bit about this guy that is under the water all the time: it has very poor eyesight.

Ellen: Oh...

Christian: Yeah. But it makes up for it. The fringes and whatnot on it's neck allows it to sense vibrations in the water very, very well.

Ellen: I would imagine it's in very murky water, so it's probably not going to get much through vision anyway.

Christian: True.

Ellen: Like even if it did have good eyesight, it probably wouldn't really be seeing much.

Christian: True, because these things are found in slow-moving or stagnant water that's not very deep.

Ellen: Probably a lot of sediment in the water and stuff. So it makes sense that they would be more interested in using feelers. So like, the electric eel used the electricity to sense its environment, so when you are living in a low visibility area, it makes sense for you to kind of find other ways to perceive your world.

Christian: So yeah, the way it does that is through vibrations and also having very good... I say ears, but they're not really ears in turtles. They work a little differently. But same concept though, it can hear sounds very, very well.

Ellen: Oh, okay.

Christian: The main deduction I have for effectiveness is they actually aren't very good swimmers.

Ellen: Oh- what! That's the one thing you gotta do though!

Christian: So they're actually, they're not very good at swimming, but they're better equipped to walk on the muddy beds in the shallow water, rather than swimming in the open water.

Ellen: I mean, I guess, but if you gotta live in the water!

Christian: It can make do, it's just, it's not very good at it.

Ellen: Aw, man.

Christian: Which makes, I guess it kind of makes sense cause it's kinda hanging out on the bottom, waiting for fish to come to it. Right? Cause it's not actively hunting fish.

Ellen: Yeah. But they still like, they have to come up to the surface to breathe, and...

Christian: I think that's why they like shallow water, because it's not a big distance between the bottom and the surface.

Ellen: I mean, I guess they need it to be that way cause they're not good swimmers.

Christian: Well they could do it. It's just not graceful at all. So yeah, effectiveness, 8 out of 10. Ingenuity, so this is how they do smart things. Examples of this could be tool use or interesting methodologies. I'm giving a 6 out of 10. I found its feeding method to be interesting, of course, so kind of going back to that, but also,, it's use of camouflage. I think that's interesting. But otherwise, not anything else, particularly...

Ellen: Just beneficial behaviors, but they're not necessarily figuring anything out.

Christian: Yeah. Yeah. I did read somewhere though that they've been studied to, I guess, move fish into a more restrictive area before sucking them up.

Ellen: You mean, like herding them somewhere?

Christian: Yeah. Yeah. I couldn't find very much info about that though.

Ellen: That's something to keep in the back of the head.

Christian: Yeah. So 6 out of 10 for ingenuity.

Ellen: It's not bad.

Christian: Aesthetics: I'm giving this one a 7 out of 10.

Ellen: Really?

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: ...Really?

Christian: I think they look interesting.

Ellen: Interesting, yes. Good, though?

Christian: I think they're interesting. The combination of their spiky shell and the triangular head with a long neck, you know, with all the frills and the moss. I think it's an interesting look.

Ellen: What I'm thinking of, I know there's a Pokémon based on this turtle.

Christian: Yes, there is.

Ellen: What is it called?

Christian: I don't know.

Ellen: Hold on...

Christian: It's one of the generations I didn't play. It's the fire turtle, I think?

Ellen: Yeah... You did play, cause this was in sun and moon.

Christian: Oh. See, that's the problem with having skipped some generations. I don't always know what is new and what was already there.

Ellen: Oh my God. You're going to love what it's called.

Christian: What is it?

Ellen: I just Googled it. Turtonator.

Christian: Haha! K.

Ellen: I forgot all about this Pokémon because it was in Sun and Moon, I believe, which I played, but I didn't play a lot of, and I think it's kind of, I think it's ugly. I'm sorry. I think it's really ugly.

Christian: Well, I think the actual matamata looks much cooler than that.

Ellen: Well, so we have seen a matamata. We saw one, I believe at the Atlanta Zoo? I think they had one in there. And I think we only like barely saw it, but I found it, um, kind of ugly.

Christian: There could be variations, in terms of color.

Ellen: Yeah. Okay. I'm looking at a picture of it right now. And interesting is... a correct descriptor of the way it looks. Interesting is a word you could use to describe it.

Christian: Well, it's all arbitrary. So...

Ellen: I know.

Christian: 7 out of 10.

Ellen: I know. That's- and that's you, that's a you thing.

Christian: That's it for my scores. Some more miscellaneous info: its conservation status is not evaluated on the IUCN Red List. It is popular in the exotic and illegal pet trade.

Ellen: Oh wow.

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: So people have these.

Christian: Mhmm.

Ellen: ...Why though?

Christian: Because of their uniqueness, I suppose.

Ellen: I mean, I guess.

Christian: I also read that at one point they were popular as a food item.

Ellen: Oh. Gross.

Christian: But that kind of died down as they found other turtles more suitable to being food, and also more aesthetically pleasing, I guess.

Ellen: Yeah. I feel like I wouldn't look at one of these and be like, mm, tasty. Good eats there.

Christian: Right?

Ellen: Gross.

Christian: So these guys, they can live up to 15 years in captivity. Their longevity in the wild has not been studied. And finally, their name, "matamata," is said to mean I kill in one of the South American native languages.

Ellen: Oh... I mean, yeah, it does do that. Sure. You know, I feel like when you look at them, they look a little bit more intimidating than I suppose they really are.

Christian: Yeah. I mean if you are a fish that could fit in its throat, definitely. But anything else, you're fine.

Ellen: Yeah. They look like, with how like spiky and jaggedy they look, they look like they might be able to do some damage to you. I feel like they look like a snapping turtle.

Christian: They do kind of, but again, their bites are really weak and that's not where they shine.

Ellen: Yeah. It's just, maybe that's a sort of mimicry where they want to look really tough and intimidating, but they're actually not.

Christian: So that's the matamata.

Ellen: That's a good turtle.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: Good job! Well, before I get started on my animal, I want to take a quick a moment to thank our patrons on Patreon. We have a Patreon where you can get access to cool things like an ad-free version of the show, you can skip the commercials. We also have cool stuff like a patron-only discord server and we're going to be sending out really cool things like some photo prints of some animal photos that I've taken, so all sorts of cool stuff on the Patreon. For this week's episode, I want to thank our current sponsors, Briana Feinberg and Krystina Sanders. Thanks y'all.

Christian: Thank you.

Ellen: Yeah.

Christian: Okay. Ellen, what animal do you have for us this week?

Ellen: This week, I'm talking about a very popular animal that I think a lot of people are going to be excited to hear about: the emperor penguin.

Christian: Ah yes! Very good.

Ellen: Yes. This was requested by Taylor Gordon-Wood, who by the way did our cover art that you see everywhere that we exist. That really cute illustration with all the little animals on it and our cool logo, that was all Taylor. Thank you Taylor. So Taylor wanted to hear about the emperor penguin.

Christian: Alright.

Ellen: The scientific name for the emperor penguin is Aptenodytes forsteri, I completely made that pronunciation up, so don't @ me. I'm getting the information for the emperor penguin from the Australian Antarctic Division of the Australian government's Department of the Environment and Energy, and also the Smithsonian Institute. So to introduce you to the emperor penguin, this is the largest species of penguin. They're typically around four feet tall, or 1.2 meters.

Christian: That's pretty tall.

Ellen: Yes, this is a big penguin. And they are up to 40 kilograms, or 88 pounds.

Christian: Woah.

Ellen: Yes, heavier than most other birds. Usually when you hear of a bird, they could be that big, but they might only be like 20 pounds. Right? Because of how light they are? The penguin is much, much heavier than other birds, and I'm actually gonna talk about that in a minute here.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: You find these in Antarctica, which by the way is the South pole, not the North pole. A lot of times you'll see people making jokes about like Alaska or the Northern parts of Canada or Russia, like talking about there being penguins up there. They're not. They're on the other side of the world. Sorry.

Christian: They got polar bears, though.

Ellen: Polar bears, yes. But so also, a lot of times people joke about like penguins being eaten by polar bears or something. They live on complete opposite ends of the entire earth. So they don't live there.

Christian: I bet they would if they met, but...

Ellen: Yes, I'm sure a polar bear would not hesitate to eat a penguin- although, maybe it wouldn't. Maybe it would be like, "I don't know what that is" and leave it alone. Sometimes predators will do that. Sometimes predators will be like, "I don't, I don't know what I'm looking at" and they won't eat it.

Christian: This isn't chicken nuggets. I'm not eating that.

Ellen: Yeah, polar bears are a lot like my five year old that way. But so anyway, there are at least 17 different species of penguins. You'll see different numbers for the number of penguin species because some subspecies classifications are in question. So some places will consider different subspecies of the same species or some consider them their own thing, but at least 17 different distinct species of penguins.

Christian: Awesome.

Ellen: Yeah, the emperor penguin is one of two species in their genus that is known as great penguins. So the great penguins are the big boys. They're the emperor penguins and then the king penguins, which are very, very similar to emperor penguins, but they're much smaller. So the king penguin, therefore, is their closest relative, but there are many other different types of penguins. That's just kind of your primer on the emperor penguin. I'm going to get started with effectiveness as Christian did. For effectiveness. I give the emperor penguin an 8 out of 10.

Christian: Alright.

Ellen: So I want you to think of two primary goals that they have in mind. First of all being survival, and second of all being feeding. So living in Antarctica, the emperor penguin is naturally highly adapted to face really, really harsh conditions. So very, very low temperatures, very violent winds. They're kind of made for this. Look at how far they are removed from other birds. Their wings are adapted to function more like flippers than like traditional wings. So I saw something recently like, floating around on Twitter that says like a penguin might seem like a terribly made bird if you're thinking of it in terms of other birds, if you think of its wings more as flippers, they don't seem so bad.

Christian: Right.

Ellen: First of all, I want to talk about their feathers. A lot of people think that the penguins stay insulated from the cold by having dense feathers, by having lots and lots of feathers on their skin and just like the density of their feathers is what protects them. That's not how it is. That's not true. That's not how they work. There have been more recent studies in 2015 showing that it's not the case that their feathers are dense, it's just how many different types of feathers they have on their bodies. So their feathers are actually layered in different types. So there was a study by Cassondra Williams, Julie Hagelin and Gerald Kooyman published by the Royal Society on October 22nd of 2015 basically saying that penguins keep warm not by having a lot of feathers, but by having complex layers of different types of feathers. The outermost layer are contour feathers, these are similar to what we think of as flight feathers on other birds. These are the long, stiff feathers and these keep the penguin's body streamlined so it reduces drag in the water and also keep an outer sort of layer to keep cold water and keep cold temperatures out. Now when penguins preen, you see them using their beak to preen their feathers, what they're doing is they gather a hydrophobic oil that is actually produced by a gland on their body near their tail. This gland produces an oil that they gather up with their beak and then when they preen they spread that oil over their feathers, and it makes their feathers hydrophobic.

Christian: Neat!

Ellen: Yeah. So you can actually see, if you take a penguin feather, you can like drop water on it and the water just slides right off.

Christian: Nice.

Ellen: Yeah. So it's really, really good for when they dive down into the water to eat the fish to catch fish that they're trying to eat. It keeps the water from seeping in and making it to their skin. And also, that hydrophobic oil prevents their feathers from gathering ice.

Christian: Ah, that's important.

Ellen: Yeah, it's really, really important to not, you know, collect ice on your feathers and the hydrophobic oil keeps that from happening. Underneath the contour feathers are two different types of feathers. These are two different types of soft downy feathers. So there's afterfeathers, which are attached directly to the contour feathers, and then there's these things called plumules, which are actually attached to the skin. They're not connected to the contour feathers. So both of these are soft downy feathers, and the purpose of those is to trap air underneath the contour feathers and insulate the body and trap the warmth to keep the cold from permeating to the skin.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: So those are the afterfeathers and the plumules. And then there's also these other types of feathers called filoplumes.

Christian: Ooh!

Ellen: Yeah. So these are really, really tiny, tiny, tiny little skinny feathers. You almost need a microscope to see them. They're so, so, so small. And the purpose of these is actually sensory. So these feathers let the bird know if a feather is dislodged or like maybe it's gotten out of place and it needs to be fixed or preened, or they're basically saying, Hey, you need to check on this feather and make sure it's okay. Yeah, so it kind of is a sensor. It's like a little check engine light. Like, hey, check on this feather. It needs some needs, some rearranging.

Christian: That's pretty cool.

Ellen: Yeah, it's really cool! So basically people didn't know that there was so much going on with penguin feathers until very, very recently. So I kind of read the whole thing and thought it was really interesting, that they have all these crazy different types of feathers that basically all work together to make sure that the penguin stays dry and warm.

Christian: That's awesome.

Ellen: Yeah. So the next thing I want to talk about other than their feathers is their bones. Since penguins don't fly, they don't have to worry about having those hollow, lightweight bones that other birds do.

Christian: Right.

Ellen: Right, so other birds have bones that are full of these air bubbles that keeps them light enough to fly. Penguins don't fly, so they don't have to worry about that. So compared to other birds, their bones are solid and dense. This serves a few different purposes. First of all, it allows them to develop really, really strong chest and shoulder muscles. They need much stronger chest and shoulder muscles than other birds because they have to generate thrust in the water, and the water is much thicker than air, so they have to push a lot harder.

Christian: Makes sense.

Ellen: Yeah. So they have just really, really thick muscles there. But another purpose of the solid bones is that it helps protect them from the effects of barotrauma, which we talked about in the blobfish episode.

Christian: That's right.

Ellen: In the blobfish episode, we talked about baro trauma being the negative effects that the change in pressure can have when you dive down into the water where the pressure is very high, and then you come back up where the pressure is very, very low. So penguins also have to dive down really deep in the water to catch fish, to hunt, to do all that stuff that they need to do, they have to dive down. So having thicker, more solid bones helps prevent them from developing barotrauma when they come back up.

Christian: Interesting.

Ellen: Yeah, so few different purposes, but so it's very lucky that they have those thick bones rather than the hollow bird bones.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: So another thing that they have to worry about is heat and energy retention, which they solve by having these fat deposits all over their body. They have just lots and lots and lots of fat built up on their body. You can see this when you look at their body and you see how chunky they are, they're nice and thick. So they have these deposits all over their body as well as on their feet. So their feet actually have fat on them, and that keeps their feet from freezing on the ice.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: Yeah, so that also lets them store and conserve energy because during the winters they have to go for months at a time without food.

Christian: Right.

Ellen: So they have all of these fat deposits on their body to store energy. They also have really small extremities, like their beacon, their wings, which are really thin, so they don't have to let as much heat away from their body. They don't have to let as much heat flow outward. Just some ways that they store heat in their bodies. The last thing for their effectiveness I want to talk about was their countershading. We talk about this a lot with animals that live in the ocean. They have the white tummy and then the black on their back. And that makes them difficult to spot when you're underneath them and looking up, you see white that blends in with the sky, but when you're above them looking down, you see black that blends in with the ocean.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: Yeah. So this is a really, really common coloring palette you'll see with animals that do swim a lot on the ocean. So just another thing that penguins have that help keep them safe when they're out swimming around in the water. I did deduct a couple of points for them being very vulnerable with no real method of self-defense. You know, they have like a pointy beak and they have sharp claws, but the claws are made more for gripping on the ice and they don't have a lot of mobility with them, so they can't do anything with them really. So in the water, they're pretty much easy pickings for leopard seals and orca whales. So both of those swim much faster than penguins.

Christian: Right.

Ellen: I mean penguins can get some good speed going, but I mean it's nothing compared to the predators they're up against in the water. So, I took a little bit off there cause they don't really have good ways of defending themselves against their predators.

Christian: Right. You'll see lots of videos of them trying to escape those predators, primarily by just getting on top of ice floats and...

Ellen: Yes, so their kind of best bet there is to hop on top of ice and get on top of land, which they have to get on top of a really large chunk of land to be safe because you know like, orca whales and leopard seals are smart enough to be able to tip the ice and knock the penguins off.

Christian: Well, the seal can also get on top of there too, if it wants to.

Ellen: Yeah. Yeah. So I dunno, I took a couple of points off cause they don't really have a backup plan there.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: Moving onto their ingenuity, I gave them an 8 out of 10.

Christian: Oh!

Ellen: They are clever birds, mostly in their social interactions. Emperor penguins spend most of most of their time in the water, but they have to breed on the ice during the winter and they have to do it during the winter because that's when the ice is the thickest so that it's strong enough to support the whole colony of penguins, right? They're so heavy and there's so many of them that in order for them to all get on top of the ice without the ice breaking, it has to be during the time of year when the ice is going to be thick enough to hold them, which means that they have to be on the ice out of the water during the harshest part of the year.

Christian: Ah.

Ellen: This is the time when it's coldest. The winds are strongest. It's just really uninviting. They survive this winter by huddling. If you've seen Happy Feet or March of the Penguins, you have- you probably have an idea of what this huddle looks like. It's mostly males. The adult male emperor penguins will huddle together where they sort of overlap each other. They sort of lay on top of each other in this massive- hundreds, even thousands of penguins all huddled together in this giant mass and they're tightly packed together, right?

Christian: Right.

Ellen: They're not just standing near each other, they are fully laying on top of each other. So in this colony that is huddling together, individuals, will actually rotate out of and into the center of the huddle. So they're taking turns on the outside edges of the huddle because that's where the winds are really harsh, that's where the conditions are a lot worse. So they actually take turns warming themselves in the middle, making sure that no penguin has to be on the outside for too long.

Christian: Oh, that's good!

Ellen: Yeah, they will also, if there's like a particularly windy day going on or something, the penguins that are on the sides that are facing the wind, they'll do this really interesting thing where they shuffle along the outside of the huddle around to the opposite side and then the rest of the penguins will follow in single file forming this circular procession around the edge to make sure that no penguin has to be in the brunt of the wind for too long. Yeah, so it kind of spiraling out to make sure that every penguin has a turn in the middle where it's nice and warm.

Christian: Awww.

Ellen: Yeah. It's just really cool, and then when they're in this huddle, they almost move as though they're just one giant penguin. You can see all these videos online of sped up penguin huddles where they all move together in these tiny little steps where they all shuffle forward together at the same time to move the entire huddle. It's really crazy to watch, but they do kind of form this hivemind penguin.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: It's like, we are one penguin

Christian: Now, this is also in a part of the globe where when you're close enough to the poles and it's the winter for that hemisphere, you might be in an area that won't see the sun for a long time.

Ellen: Oh gosh, yeah. Typically in these huddles, what you're seeing are the adult males, and the adult males are in this huddle because they have been left behind by the females. The females have met up with them when the breeding season was starting, which is typically the end of the autumn season leading into the winter. The females will meet up with them, they will mate, the female will lay her egg, she will give it to the male, and then when winter starts to really get rough, the females peace out and they leave. The males stay behind in their huddle with the egg. The male is holding onto the egg, he's holding it in a little what's called a brood pouch, which is a little flap of skin he's got underneath his tummy.

Christian: Aw.

Ellen: He puts the egg under there, so he's holding onto it with his feet and he's got his belly kind of on top of the egg, keeping it warm. The females leave and they leave for months at a time and they go back to the ocean and they feed, so they're hunting and eating. They fill their tummies up and then the males stay behind in the huddle to brave the storm. They have to stay there, right, because the egg is not going to survive in that winter. They can't do anything else with it. They can't leave it at a nest because it's going to freeze. So they have to stay there and wait.

Christian: Protect it with their dad bod.

Ellen: And protect it with their ultimate dad bod that is specifically made for protecting their babies. So they stay there for months at a time. They can't eat anything this whole time, and we're talking like two or three months at a time where they just cannot eat anything. They have to just sit there and wait. So during that time they're just warming the egg, trying to stay alive, and then after a few months the female comes home, mommy comes home, she's got a belly full of food and if by then the chick has hatched, then she will take the chick back from the dad and she'll feed it and the dad will leave and go eat his food. If she comes back and the egg hasn't hatched yet, then she'll just take the egg and the dad will go get something to eat. So they'll trade off like that. The dad will give the baby to the mom, he'll go eat. But then he comes back and they keep doing that. They keep trading off so that one of them can go eat and then come back. So they're both still raising the chick, which is really cool. You're seeing like both parents kind of taking on an equal role in raising the baby.

Christian: Soooo what happens when one doesn't come back?

Ellen: That happens. Sometimes one of them, like either the mom doesn't come back or the dad doesn't come back, and if it is that sort of situation where maybe the mom or the dad has been killed, maybe they've been eaten by a whale or maybe they've just decided to move on and do something else, then the parent will, if they get desperate enough, they'll abandon the chick and go eat. Like they have to- they have to stay alive.

Christian: Right.

Ellen: So they will leave their chick to go feed if they have to. Yeah, so that does happen sometimes, although the chicks will form their own huddle once they kind of get big enough where they can leave their parents' pouch, they will form their own little huddle and sometimes actually other penguins will adopt abandoned chicks.

Christian: Awww.

Ellen: Yeah, that- actually I was about to talk about this.

Christian: Oh!

Ellen: Yes. So, so dedicated our penguin fathers that there are many cases of male penguins forming couples and adopting abandoned eggs or chicks. This is actually very like, highly documented in captivity usually because people find it adorable and lose their minds about it because it's so cute. So I haven't, I actually wasn't able to confirm that any of these were emperor penguins. I found a couple of examples of king penguins, being their closest relatives. So Skipper and Ping were a pair of male king penguins at the Berlin Zoo who tried to incubate and hatch rocks and fish.

Christian: Awww...

Ellen: Yeah. They so badly wanted to hatch their own egg that they would find rocks and incubate them and like, try to hatch... Rocks. Yeah. So they wanted so badly to have their own baby that they were given an egg that had been laid and abandoned by its mother. So the zookeepers saw a mother lay an egg and she walked away from it, so they gave the egg to Skipper and Ping. The egg ended up not being fertilized, so it never hatched, but the zookeepers say they're going to keep trying. They'll try again next season that like, if another egg is abandoned, they'll give it to Skipper and Ping and let them try again.

Christian: How nice.

Ellen: Yeah. Another pair of male king penguins at the Odense Zoo in Denmark saw a chick left unattended, assumed it was abandoned by its parents, and adopted it as their own. When the parents returned for their chick, they were not pleased. So they got in a little fight, they got in a little penguin altercation and staff had to like, break them up and they did return the check to the original parents. But what happened was these two male penguins really wanted to have a chick of their own and they basically saw like, this chick that their parent just went to go, I dunno, swim or eat or something, and they were like, "Oh! Must be abandoned!" And like, just took it and left. So yeah, that was...

Christian: Swipe.

Ellen: Yeah. So they- the zookeepers there did say that they were going to try to get that chick- get those penguins their own chick too. And then of course the famous penguin couple, Roy and Silo. These were chinstrap penguins, so these are different entirely from emperor and king penguins, but these were chinstrap penguins who nested together as a couple for six consecutive years.

Christian: Wow.

Ellen: Yeah. And they eventually raised a chick, a female chick, her name was Tango, they raised her together and she inspired the children's book "And Tango Makes Three," about Roy and Silo and their baby chick Tango.

Christian: How cute!

Ellen: Yes, it's very sweet. There is this misconception floating around that we actually, just like an hour ago were talking about in the Facebook group, there is this misconception that penguins mate monogamously forever. A lot of people have this idea that penguins mate for life. That's not really how it works. So they engage in what's called serial monogamy, where they will have one partner for that mating season. So they'll have one partner that they stay with for that year, but then the next breeding season, a lot of times they will go back to the same partner, but they will often find another partner for the next season. Now, different species of penguins have different what they call divorce rates.

Christian: Oh no.

Ellen: Yeah. So for example, actually the emperor penguin, I saw their figures said that 80% of emperor penguins found a new partner with like, the next breeding season. So they're not as successfully monogamous as other species of penguins, like other species, it's much, much lower, it's like 30 or 40% so they actually are more likely to go back to the same partner over and over again. But it's not true that they stay with just one partner for the rest of their lives. That's not how they work.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: Yeah. So I just wanted to get that out there. So the last thing I want to talk about for their ingenuity is that penguins identify each other to either reunite with their mates at breeding seasons, or when they come back from hunting, they need to find their family and get back to their chick. They can identify each other by these unique vocalizations. Yeah. So even in these massive colonies of thousands and thousands of penguins, they can pick out the one particular penguin they're looking for because they can tell their voices apart.

Christian: That's good.

Ellen: Happy Feet was like surprisingly accurate. How like, they identify each other by their voice and like the song that they sing is like unique to them. That's like surprisingly dead on.

Christian: But then Elijah Wood couldn't sing!

Ellen: No, he did a bad job.

Christian: He had to do the dance.

Ellen: He danced instead. But like that was a lot of things in Happy Feet were like surprisingly accurate. Like that part in the beginning where like the skua is like, diving down and trying to take the egg and the babies and stuff. That's true. That happens.

Christian: And then they did all those Queen songs.

Ellen: They did all the Queen songs and it was great. Happy Feet's a great movie. So that wraps things up for my 8 out of 10 for ingenuity, I thought they were pretty good. They have really good social interactions and that's...

Christian: Very good.

Ellen: Pretty cool. So for aesthetics, I gave them two different scores. For the adults, I give them 6 out of 10. I think they have a goofy-shaped body where they are very thick in the middle, but they're kinda like tapered at the ends?

Christian: I'm trying to think if I'm imagining the correct penguin.

Ellen: The emperor penguin is the one from Happy Feet. It's really tall now. I do, I will say that they have a very aesthetically pleasing color palette where they're mostly black and white. Their back has this sort of gradient where it's black at the bottom and it up towards the top. It's like a gray scale sort of ombre look that I think is really, really pretty, and then they have these splashes of yellow around like their face. They'll have these bright, bright, bright yellow splashes on their face and on their beak and stuff.

Christian: I see.

Ellen: So I think their colors are really pretty, but I actually don't think that the adult emperor penguin is very... Cute. They have the little eyes and... I don't know. I'm not a huge stan of the adult emperor penguin. Now, part two of my aesthetic score, the babies. 10 out of 10. Oh my gosh. It's literally just a little pointy cloud. That's all it is. It's just a little, it's just a little fluff that has a tiny beak and tiny eyes and it's just so cute I can't stand it. So number one, cutest baby animal in the world, but it grows up to be... You know, those like bowling pin shaped like toys that's like, you knock them over and then they pop back up? It's a bit what they look like.

Christian: Are you talking about Weeble Wobbles?

Ellen: Yes. That's kind of what they look like. So yeah. Um...

Christian: I bet they do fall down, though.

Ellen: I just find it hard to take them seriously with the way that they look. But yeah. So those are my two different aesthetic scores for the emperor penguin.

Christian: Very good.

Ellen: Yeah. So to wrap things up, their conservation status is near threatened. So emperor penguins are directly affected by changes to ocean temperatures, since they need massive amounts of sea ice in order to breed and raise their chicks. So as ice in Antarctica is continuing to decrease as severely as it has in recent years, penguins are having less and less space to start their families and their populations are declining. So you can help us protect penguins by you know, supporting environmental protection measures. I know there's been a lot in the news about the climate strike and all that stuff, so you know, follow that and, and do what you can to make our oceans better and protect penguins.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: That's all I got. That wraps things up for the emperor penguin for me.

Christian: Very good! Very interesting birb.

Ellen: Definitely a very cool bird to learn about. I guess to wrap things up for this episode, we have a couple of audience responses. I'll go first because mine is actually not a response. It was way back. So last week we talked about the bombardier beetle. You did. So Jungle Gym Queen was one of the people who requested the bombardier beetle, and I totally forgot to say this (or I forgot to pass this on to you), but in the Twitter thread where they requested the Bombardier beetle, they had this really delightful description of the bombardier beetle that I wanted to include.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: Called bombardier beetles "chitinous incarnations of people after eating sugar-free Haribo gummy bears."

Christian: [laughs].

Ellen: And I really found that on point. I thought you would like to hear that and I neglected to mention it last episode, so I wanted to make sure we got that in there.

Christian: Excellent.

Ellen: Yep. It's all you babe.

Christian: Alright. I have a response from Melody Albright, who is one of our listeners on the Facebook page. So for last week's episode with the bombardier beetle, I reached out to Melody because she's been very active in the Facebook group and has a lot of knowledge about insects. So I asked her, you know, what are some interesting things about the bombardier beetle? And then she actually reached out to her friend Evan Waite, who recently got his Master's in Science while studying beetles.

Ellen: Wow!

Christian: Yeah. Evan says the coolest fact, in his opinion, is that the chemical compounds that make the explosion are held in two separate chambers, when released, they combine to cause the reaction. So that's what we were talking about last week, in the explosion chamber.

Ellen: Yes. The dramatically named explosion chamber.

Christian: So, again, we thought that was all very interesting because it's able to do that without blowing up itself.

Ellen: I always feel like, on some level, bugs are just little robots and I think this one's a battle bot.

Christian: Long range. Medium range? I don't know.

Ellen: I mean as far as bugs go, it's pretty long range. Most of them don't have that kind of reach. All right, well that's all we have for this week so thank you so much for joining us. I hope you enjoyed it and thank you very much to everyone who has been reviewing us on your podcatchers and letting your friends know about us. We really appreciate that. We've been seeing some really cool growth and it makes us really happy. You can connect with us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. Just search the title of the show and you'll get there. Please come hang out with us in our Facebook group, which rules. Our Facebook group is so good. You guys make me so happy. It is called Just the Zoo of Us: Official Friend Squad, so come hang out with us on there and come be our friend. If you have an animal species that you want to hear us review, you can submit those to us. My email address is ellen@justthezooofus.com, or of course you can hit us up on social media. It'll get where it needs to go,

Christian: But also, also send us things you don't want us to review. I probably won't do anything with that information.

Ellen: If this is your first time joining us, if you scroll down a little bit in our feed, you'll see some of the monstrosities that Christian has brought to the table and subjected me to, because I have to sit here and listen to him talk about it every time, and then I have to edit the episode, which means I have to listen to it all over again, and then I have to do the transcript, which means I have to listen to it three times. I had to hear you talk about the botfly.

Christian: And see it in text form.

Ellen: THREE times I had to listen to that, and I had to type it out.

Christian: There it is.

Ellen: So, thank you so much for doing that to me.

Christian: Anytime.

Ellen: Like I said, the transcript of this episode and other episodes can be found at justthezooofus.com and our last note is that I'd like to thank Louie Zong for the use of his song "Adventuring" off of his album, Bee Sides.

Christian: Yes. Thank you for that. It slaps real hard.

Ellen: Okay bye.

Christian: Bye y'all.

21: Coquí & Bombardier Beetle

Ellen: Hey Friends, this is Ellen Weatherford.

Christian: And Christian Weatherford.

Ellen: And we are here with Just the Zoo of Us, an animal review podcast where we take your favorite species of animals and rate them out of 10 in the categories of effectiveness, ingenuity, and of course aesthetics.

Christian: We are not zoological experts. We do a lot of research and try our best to make sure we're presenting information from trustworthy resources, but if we get it wrong, let us know.

Ellen: Yeah, we will do our best to make it right.

Christian: I will travel back in time, assassinate myself, and take my own place to give better information.

Ellen: But then they wouldn't have anything to correct.

Christian: Time paradox. [X-files theme]

Ellen: Welcome to the Area 51 special. Just kidding. We're not really doing that, because we're recording this on the day of the Area 51 raid, but this will come out next week. But we do have a huge, probably our biggest ever update and that is that we have a ceiling fan in our office now.

Christian: I was like, "Uh oh, what did I forget?"

Ellen: Christian put up a ceiling fan in our office and that's the room that we record in and it's making it a lot more pleasant to record in here.

Christian: It sure is. It's normally sweltering.

Ellen: So hopefully that recording in pleasant conditions will just allow us to bring even better content.

Christian: Agreed.

Ellen: So, last week Christian went first with the jaguar. So this week it's my turn.

Christian: What do you got for us this week, honey?

Ellen: This week I am going to be talking about a beloved cultural icon: the coquí.

Christian: Ah!

Ellen: Yeah, the scientific name is Eleutherodactylus coqui.

Christian: I like that.

Ellen: Yes. It's a beautiful name. The species was requested by our friend Edwin Rivera. Thank you, Edwin. Edwin requested this saying that this is a species that is near and dear to his heart because the coquí is the cultural icon of Puerto Rico.

Christian: That's right. We learned a little bit about this in the JoCo Cruise earlier this year when we went to San Juan.

Ellen: We did. We got to stop by in San Juan for a little bit. Now we didn't hear the coquís and we didn't really get any exposure while we were there. Still...

Christian: Saw lots of references to it.

Ellen: Yes, lots and lots. This is a very popular animal in Puerto Rico. Just before I launch into it, I'm getting my information from the US Department of Agriculture's Forest Service, the Animal Diversity Web- we love them, we're always up in their business- and, this is interesting, the Journal of the Acoustic Society of America.

Christian: Okay. Interesting.

Ellen: Yeah. I'm really glad that we're talking about this animal because most of the animals that we talk about, I think we talk about their visuals a lot, which doesn't always translate super well to an audio medium. This animal is made to be talked about over an audio medium.

Christian: Excellent.

Ellen: Yes, this is perfect. So just to introduce you to my new friend, the coquí, their adult size is only up to five and a half centimeters, or a little over two inches, and that is like as big as they get.

Christian: Alright.

Ellen: So they're typically gonna be around an inch long. It's a little dude! It's a small frog. I didn't mention that they're frogs. They're frogs! They're tiny, tiny frogs. They are native to Puerto Rico where they can be found pretty much throughout the entire island, pretty much all over the place. Um, most notably the famous rainforest in Puerto Rico, El Yunque National Forest.

Christian: Oh yeah. Was that the one near San Juan?

Ellen: It's near San Juan, yeah. It was close to where we were, but not close enough for us to reasonably go there cause we had to be back.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: But um, yeah. El Yunque rainforest. Now their taxonomic family is Eleutherodactylidae. These are rain frogs. That name comes from Greek and it translates to "free-toed." Not T-O-A-D, it's not a free toad. You can't go to the store and ask for a free toad. By "free-toed," they mean that their feet are not webbed.

Christian: Oh! Okay.

Ellen: Yep. They don't have any webbing between their toes, which basically just means that they're not necessarily adapted to be like aquatic. Their feet aren't adapted to swimming. This is more of a land-dwelling frog. Now, this family of frogs is known for its practice of direct development. So what this means is that the babies emerge from the eggs not as tadpoles, but as froglets. They develop through the tadpole phase inside the egg, and by the time they hatch from the egg, they have already grown legs.

Christian: I guess that makes sense if they're not in bodies of water usually.

Ellen: Right, right. Now there are over 700 species of frogs in this family, and 18 of them are different species of coquí,

Christian: Huh.

Ellen: Yup. So the one that I picked is just the common coquí. This is the one that you're going to find all over the island. It is the one that there seems to be the most information about, so that's why I picked it. There are a few other different species including some that are believed to be extinct. It's really interesting because they seem to have like, just developed on the island of Puerto Rico and that's it. That's pretty cool. Yeah, that is just your little introduction to the coquí. So I'm going to get into my ratings for this animal. So if you're joining us for the first time, what we do is we rate our animals in three categories, the first of which is effectiveness, and we define effectiveness as how good is this animal at doing the things that it needs to do. So these are physical adaptations that let the animal do a good job. So I'm giving the coquí a 7 out of 10 for effectiveness.

Christian: It's pretty good.

Ellen: It's pretty good. It's decent. So first of all, they have pretty good camouflage. They're just kind of a standard brown color, but they have markings that are, like brown-adjacent. So they could be tan or like light yellow or a darker brown. They just, they blend in with the wood of the trees that they're in or the leaves on the ground, stuff like that. They blend in very easily with foliage, so they're pretty good at staying hidden, which is good because they are ambush predators. So they do like, eat insects around them and stuff. They'll pretty much eat anything that can fit in their tiny, tiny little mouth, but they're ambush predators so they'll lay and wait until their prey is close enough for them to jump out at them and get. Their lack of a tadpole stage means that they don't actually need standing water. This is really good for living in a rainforest environment where there might not always be standing water available, like during the dry seasons or something. They also do absorb moisture through their skin like other frogs do, so they're really well adapted for living where they live in the rain forest, they don't necessarily need standing water to get by because they don't have to necessarily drink water, like through their mouth. They can absorb it through their skin.

Christian: Makes sense.

Ellen: Yeah. So kind of the most defining characteristic of the coquí is their voice. For being only about an inch long, they have an extremely loud voice.

Christian: Oh boy.

Ellen: Yeah. The cry of the coquí can be up to 90 decibels, which is about as loud as a lawn mower. This is kind of what they're most known for. I actually put more information about this in the ingenuity section.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: Which I'm going into right now.

Christian: Oh, well here we are!

Ellen: It's time. So for ingenuity, we define this as behavioral adaptations that an animal has that let it do clever things. So maybe it has a problem that it needs to solve on a daily basis, or maybe there's an obstacle in its way that it needs to kind of figure out. These are smart things that an animal does. I give the coquí an 8 out of 10.

Christian: Really!

Ellen: Which is higher than I expected to give a frog.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: This is a clever frog.

Christian: Oh boy.

Ellen: Yes. So, the coquí gets their name from their iconic call that they make. So, their name is actually onomatopoetic.

Christian: Like a Pokémon!

Ellen: Which is, by the way, onomatopoetic is my favorite word in the English language. It's so- yes! It's exactly like a Pokémon! They say their name. They do, and this is the only animal I can think of like this, but they do say their name. So the call, first of all, it's only used by males. Females do not make the sound. Females will make like, some small sounds but not very many. So when you hear a coquí, it is a male making this sound.

Christian: I bet I can guess what the purpose is, then.

Ellen: Yes you can, but hold on. It gets more interesting than that. So, they produce this call during the evening and throughout the night to communicate with other coquís. It's not necessarily like to, I don't know, ward off predators or anything. So what is distinct about the call of the coquí is that it is divided into two distinct parts, like how the name goes "coquí," the first part of the call is a low-pitched "co-" and then the second part is a high pitched "-KEE." So their cry sounds like "co-KEE."

Audio: [recording of a rain forest full of coquí singing]

Ellen: It's so precious. It's really cute. So the first part is much, much lower and the second part is much, much higher.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: There is a very particular reason for this.

Christian: Ooh...

Ellen: Yes. So each part of their cry sounds the way it does because they're intended for different audiences. Male and female coquís have auditory neurons that are distributed differently from each other. Their brains are literally wired differently. Their inner ears are tuned differently, meaning that males and females cannot hear the same pitches. Females can hear much, much, much higher pitches than males can.

Christian: Huh.

Ellen: Yes. So, this is actually a really cool example of sexual dimorphism in the auditory system.

Christian: Yeah, for sure.

Ellen: Where they're actually processing their environment differently, based on male and females.

Christian: Huh.

Ellen: Yes. This is wild. This is so cool. What is even more interesting about that is that, so the "co-" part of the cry is directed at other males to warn them, like, "hey, I'm here, I'm a male. You need to know where I am so that you know to not be in my zone." Right, they're trying to like keep other males away from them. So that's what the "co-" part of the sound is. And the "-KEE" part of the sound is directed at females to let them know, "hey, I'm over here. It's me, a male. Come, come uh, hang out with me. Yeah, come get some." Basically. So in the absence of other males, they will skip the "co" and just do the "kee." And in the absence of females, they'll skip the "kee" and just do the "co."

Christian: Interesting!

Ellen: So they can like, kinda tell, they're like, "okay, it doesn't seem like there's any females around here, so I don't necessarily need to broadcast to them. I'll just do the 'co' part. So I'm just talking to like- hey fellas. Hey fellas." When they're done with that, they're like, "all right, now ladies."

Christian: Like that song.

Ellen: Yes. But so yeah, so they're talking specifically to whatever sex of frog is closest to them, and like they can tell who's nearby and they change their call based on who they're trying to talk to.

Christian: I wonder if that's based on what they can see, or what they've heard. Like maybe they can hear other males.

Ellen: Right. Like they can hear if there's other males near them. Right?

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: So if they don't hear any other males nearby, they're like, okay, maybe I don't necessarily need to call out to the males.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: Yeah. So I thought that was really fascinating. I put this in ingenuity because I figured like even though this isn't necessarily like a conscious decision that the frog is making, this just shows that they have adapted to the neurological differences between males and females and have this habitual behavior that's like, tailored to the whole auditory processing system of the different frogs.

Christian: Yeah, that's crazy.

Ellen: Yes! That is so cool! That's such high-level stuff. So, the next thing I want to talk about for their ingenuity is the coquís like to hang out in different parts of the trees based on what kind of time it is. So first of all, like the older ones, the older adult ones, you'll find them up higher in the trees than the juveniles who like to stay kind of closer to the ground. The coquí likes to hang out at the tops of the trees at night when it's nice and cool and it's kind of humid, and there's a lot of kind of like bugs flying around up in the tops of the trees, so they like to hang out up there. But then when the sun starts to come out, things start to dry up. It starts to get a little hotter, they will be like, hmm, I need to kind of get lower to the ground cause it's a little too hot up here. But, if they were to just kinda hop back down the tree, like try to climb back down the tree, they'd be really, really vulnerable to tarantulas, lizards, predators like that, that are coming out around that time of morning. So, they just jump out of the tree.

Christian: Oh.

Ellen: And fall to the ground. They're speedrunning getting back down to the ground.

Christian: Can I back it up a real- just real quick?

Ellen: Yeah, what?

Christian: Does Puerto Rico have tarantulas?

Ellen: Yes.

Christian: I did not know that.

Ellen: Yeah.

Christian: Huh...

Ellen: Big ol' spidders. They got 'em. Yeah. Which will eat the frogs cause the frogs are very small.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: But so they will just jump out of the tree and fall to the ground and...

Christian: All that stuff? Nah!

Ellen: Yeah. So they just kind of daredevil jump right out of the tree and fall on the ground. This has led to people describing El Yunque Forest as raining frogs.

Christian: Ohhh, that's very good.

Ellen: Mmhmm. So what's funny is that you hear that and you think, "okay, they probably just mean either there's a lot of frogs there or maybe it rains really, really heavily." Like how you and I would say like, "it's raining cats and dogs" or something?

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: Which I say we would say that, but I don't think I've ever said that in my life. I don't feel like it's as common as a phrase.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: But so how you and I might say it's raining cats and dogs., maybe this is like the Puerto Rican version, like it's raining frogs?

Christian: I guess.

Ellen: But no, it literally rains frogs. The frogs literally fall out of the sky.

Christian: I wonder if there's a particular time when it happens.

Ellen: Yeah. It's like early in the morning.

Christian: But like, at the minute, like could you set your clock to it?

Ellen: I really doubt it! I don't think it's like, "oh well it's 8:16" and then just every single- like hundreds and hundreds of frogs all at once.

Christian: Like when you go outside at a particular time, you have to remember to bring an umbrella.

Ellen: I don't think it's like that, but that would be really funny if it was. I'd really like that. So yeah, I thought that was pretty clever of them to figure out like, hmm, I can just use gravity to get down back to where I need to go without getting gobbled up.

Christian: I'm guessing it's such that they don't weigh enough to hurt themselves from that fall.

Ellen: Right. Yeah. They're just too small. They don't really take fall damage.

Christian: Maaan. Lucky.

Ellen: I mean, like you don't worry about something like a spider falling. It's like he's going to be fine. He's too little. It's just a little frog. He's fine. So yeah, they jump out of trees. I thought that was pretty smart of them to do that, to keep away from predators.

Christian: I agree.

Ellen: The last thing I wanted to talk about for their ingenuity, this is not a behavior that is specific to this species of frog, but it's still something that I found kind of endearing: since they do hatch into froglets rather than tadpoles, the coquí lays their eggs on plants rather than water. So this means that the eggs and the froglets are a little bit more vulnerable to different threats, like just environmental threats, but also little bit more vulnerable to being found by predators or messed with in some way. So male coquís will guard the eggs and- yeah, so the female like just lays the eggs and leaves, but the male actually hangs around the eggs and guards them to make sure that nobody comes along and gobbles them up.

Christian: That's a nice little trade off there.

Ellen: Yeah, they'll even stick around like for a few days after the froglets hatch to like! Make sure they kind of make it. Yeah. So they're actually good dads. That wasn't something I was expecting to find about a frog, you know? And I feel like when I think about frog parenting, I imagine just like, they lay their eggs and leave, which is what a lot of water-dwelling frogs will do. Like when they lay their eggs in the water, they'll just put them there and peace out, but the coquí will kind of hang around and make sure that their babies are okay. I thought that was really sweet.

Christian: Cute.

Ellen: So that wraps up my 8 out of 10 for ingenuity. This is a surprisingly clever little frog. I like it. I was kinda surprised to find all that stuff out, but...

Christian: Yeah, I imagine.

Ellen: I was very pleased by it. This brings us to my final category for the coquí. This is the aesthetics. For aesthetics, I gave it a 7 out of 10 as well. This is a pretty basic frog. It's really just a tiny little brown dude. I kind of gave it some points because it is pretty cute. They have these huge round eyes. They actually have a kind of a pointy nose. Their nose is a little bit v-shaped. Their markings have some variability, like some of them have yellow stripes down their back, some of them don't. They can kinda look a little bit different from one to the other. They don't all look the same. They don't all have the same markings.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: I mean, they're pretty cute. They're nothing necessarily spectacular, but they have a pretty adorable little face as far as frogs go. It's a decently cute frog.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: Yeah. So, going to wrap up the coquí by talking about some miscellaneous information, their conservation status is of least concern.

Christian: Good.

Ellen: In fact, coquís have been found as invasive species in Florida, California, and most importantly Hawaii.

Christian: Well.

Ellen: They are kind of wrecking shop in Hawaii. They apparently are a huge problem. So what happens is they come in undetected, either as eggs or as just tiny adults on imported plants. So they'll bring in like, bromeliads or other types of plants that are not native to that area. And the coquí is just so little, like you don't see it. You can just miss the entire frog, or it has like eggs on the plant or something. And then you bring that in and then they get everywhere and then they lay eggs and it just...

Christian: It's the perfect environment for them, too.

Ellen: It's very, yeah, it's very similar to what they're used to. So it's really easy for them to reproduce.

Christian: Probably fewer predators.

Ellen: No predators. Nothing in Hawaii will eat them, so they're just completely unchecked. This has happened in Florida a few times in the past, where coquí will sort of establish populations in South Florida, but Florida has the advantage of periodic freezes during the winter. Sometimes we'll have freezes, and those will usually kill off any coquí in that area. They can't really survive a freeze, but they can't really get a foothold in there. Like every once in a while there'll be a little flare up where like a bunch of them will show up, but they're not self-sustaining. You won't see a population of them lasting for a long time. However, in Hawaii, like I said, they have no natural predators to keep their populations in check. And in fact, in Hawaii there have been times when their population density was up to double or even triple what it was in Puerto Rico.

Christian: Dang.

Ellen: So this is like thousands and thousands and thousands of coquí in very small spaces.

Christian: So what is the impact? Is it eating important bugs or?

Ellen: Yes, so they're eating a lot of bugs. They're eating a lot of native insects. But also this is, I hadn't thought about this, but the excrement from the frogs changes the nutritional balance in the soil.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: So this is something that is okay for plants that are not native to Hawaii, but the plants that are native to Hawaii are used to a very, very different balance of nutrients in their soil. The plants that are native to Hawaii are used to that sort of volcanic soil, right? Where it's, it's very, very different from Puerto Rican soil. So when the coquí establish a big population, the poop that they're putting into the soil can really kinda change the ecosystem there.

Christian: I see.

Ellen: And they're also, you know, eating a lot of insects and they're competing with other predators in that area, so it's just not good.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: And also another, not necessarily an ecological side effect, but an economical side effect is that they're very loud. They're extremely loud. Due to the density that they can establish in Hawaii, the sound produced by their calls can be completely deafening. You cannot hear anything over how loud they are. If they really get a foothold in an area, they can be so incredibly loud that you like, you can't even hear yourself think.

Christian: That's awful.

Ellen: You can hear them inside, like inside buildings, you can hear them because of how many there are and how loud they are. The Hawaii invasive species council describes them as "loud, incessant and annoying." That's not to devalue the importance of dealing with an invasive species that has really skyrocketed.

Christian: Honestly, I feel like the sound is the biggest problem and everything else is just secondary.

Ellen: Who knows? Maybe, I don't know. I don't know. I'm not on that council.

Christian: I think Hawaii in general is very, very careful about avoiding invasive species.

Ellen: Oh Gosh. It's like you can't take anything to Hawaii. Like you cannot take a plant, you cannot take a fruit, you cannot take an animal. Like you can't take your pet to Hawaii, they really have it on lock.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: So what's funny is that as negatively as they feel about the sound of the coquí because of how many there are there, that's in stark contrast to how Puerto Ricans feel about the sound of the coquí. Right?

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: So in Puerto Rico, their densities are much lower. They keep it to a reasonable volume. It's still loud, but it's very melodic. It sounds beautiful. They have that sort of melody to their call and it's, it does sound like music in the rain forest. It sounds really beautiful. They have really inspired a lot of art, they've inspired songs and poems and they've just really been a muse for artists from Puerto Rico and they're strongly associated with Puerto Rican identity.

Christian: That's awesome.

Ellen: Yeah, so I've been really charmed by this frog and I'm a big fan.

Christian: I think there's also a lot of music with influences from the coquí where the singer will imitate that sound.

Ellen: Oh yeah?

Christian: I heard a little bit of that while we were in San Juan.

Ellen: Yeah, it's- I can definitely see why they are so charming because I was reading an article from like the Puerto Rican tourism website that basically described their association as like, just like Puerto Rico, it's a small island, just like the coquí, we're small, but we have a big voice.

Christian: I like that.

Ellen: Yeah. So I was like, you know what? That makes sense. That makes sense. So, yeah, this is a great animal. I love the coquí and you know what? I didn't know anything about it before, like doing all this research, so...

Christian: That's fun.

Ellen: Yeah. Good animal. Thank you, Edwin.

Christian: Yes, thanks, Edwin.

Ellen: Before we move on to Christian's animal, just a real quick a shout out to our Patreon. We have a Patreon to help us grow, so if you want to help us out, if you want to support us and help us get bigger and better and also get access to some really cool stuff like a feed of the show with no ads and a patron-only discord and all sorts of other really cool stuff, come check us out at patreon.com/justthezooofus. For this week's episode, I want to thank our patrons, Briana Feinberg and Krystina Sanders.

Christian: Thanks, y'all!

Ellen: Thank you. Alright, Christian, what do you have for us this week?

Christian: For this week, I have the American Bombardier Beetle.

Ellen: Okay.

Christian: Scientific name, Brachinus fumans. Hope that's how that's pronounced.

Ellen: Sure. You're good.

Christian: This is the animal was requested by Jungle Gym Queen, as well as Sarah Beth Bradley.

Ellen: Thanks y'all. Good taste in bugs.

Christian: So, a lot of people have heard of the Bombardier beetle. That is actually a, you call it a grouping of several different species. I chose the American bombardier beetle just because of being local to us, I suppose. Although I don't think I've ever personally seen one of these.

Ellen: Definitely not.

Christian: And I'm pulling my information from also Animal Diversity Web, can be found at animaldiversity.org, and also MIT news, a particular article with which I will tell later, else giving away content.

Ellen: A grand reveal! No spoilers here.

Christian: But it can be found at news.mit.edu. So, a little quick talk about this beetle. Their adult size are about a half inch long, or one and a quarter centimeters long.

Ellen: Teeny.

Christian: Yeah. Not Big.

Ellen: It's like the claw of a chicken.

Christian: The fingernail? Bigger than that.

Ellen: Okay.

Christian: Yeah. You're trying to pull in them chickens. So these guys can be found, as the name might suggest, in North America in temperate zone woodlands and grasslands. They belong to the taxonomic family Carabidae, also known as ground beetles. As far as notable evolutionary relatives go, there's one called Panagaeus cruxmajor. I mentioned this one because it's interesting to look at. It's gold and black, and its markings look like it has a crucifix on it.

Ellen: Whoa.

Christian: Yes. And I also have a story towards the end of my segment that involves this particular crucifix beetle and Charles Darwin.

Ellen: So that's a little teaser for ya, stick around.

Christian: Yep. But kind of going back onto the family thing, this family includes 40,000 species.

Ellen: No, it does not. That's so many.

Christian: Sure does. I mean, now we're in the bug lands.

Ellen: That's true. Most animals are bugs. Most things are bugs.

Christian: Am I bug?

Ellen: Yes. We're all bugs.

Christian: So getting right into it. Effectiveness, this is where this particular species shines, in my opinion. I'm giving it an 8 out of 10.

Ellen: Alright. That's pretty good.

Christian: And that's because of what bombardier beetles are known for. To put it simply, bombardier beetles, they have a defense mechanism to where when they are threatened or startled, they will spray a hot toxin from their- the rear of their abdomen.

Ellen: Okay.

Christian: Let's talk about how that works a little bit.

Ellen: Yes, please.

Christian: So in the rear of the abdomen of the Beatles, they have two small glands. One produces hydrogen peroxide while the other makes hydroquinone. And then those two mix in a different part of the abdomen that is called the explosion chamber.

Ellen: No it's not!

Christian: It for sure is.

Ellen: Oh my gosh. This is a Zoid.

Christian: So these two- those two chemicals mix, and within that chamber is already two enzymes, catalase and peroxidase, and it's added into there to speed up the chemical reaction that takes place. So when these chemicals all come together, they produce a lot of heat and it reaches about the boiling point. So the temperature of this mixture, this cocktail of sorts reaches a hundred degrees Celsius, or 212 degrees Fahrenheit.

Ellen: There it is, okay.

Christian: It's heated up. It's creating a ton of pressure and then the beetle releases it as a steamy stream. This makes an audible pop when it happens.

Ellen: *popping sound*

Christian: Something like that, yeah. So yeah, it does this as a defense mechanism. So one, it's very hot and two, it's an irritant to most animals.

Ellen: Oh, so it's both hot and spicy.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: This a spicy gusher.

Christian: I don't suggest it though. Uh, and this reaction that's happening inside it happens in pulses.

Ellen: Oh, so it's not just like a stream?

Christian: Yeah, it's not a one and done thing.

Ellen: It's like just in case the first one wasn't enough.

Christian: Well it does a controlled pulse. It gets to the point where the pressure builds up to where the glands aren't able to put any more of the first two chemicals into the chamber, until it's released. It's a lot like an ignition chamber in a gasoline engine, actually.

Ellen: It sounds like it doesn't really have a lot of control over this.

Christian: It does, yes. So it's controlling these pulses and for how long it wants, but its control really comes into play with aim. So it has about 270 degrees of aim in any direction.

Ellen: Oh wow.

Christian: So it can effectively aim at wherever it wants.

Ellen: Does it ever accidentally like fire at itself or...?

Christian: So I've, I've seen it, I've seen videos of it doing this and I've seen it get its own leg or something. Cause usually in the videos, the way they prompt the response is they'll use tweezers or something to kinda like grab its back leg.

Ellen: Oh that's rude.

Christian: And they're like "Aah! *tssst*" and it'll usually get its own leg. It doesn't seem to do any damage. Something interesting there is that the anatomy of the beetles is in such a way that it doesn't harm its own internal organs with that said explosion chamber. So, and by the way, this is where the MIT article comes into play and that article was titled "How Some Beetles Produce a Scalding Defensive Spray."

Ellen: There it is.

Christian: So MIT was interested in it because of the potential applications in defense.

Ellen: Military defense.

Christian: Yeah. But also uh, engineering in general.

Ellen: Oh okay.

Christian: Right.

Ellen: I mean yeah they've basically got like a biological combustion chamber.

Christian: Right. Cause the inside of the beetle are such that, you know, some pieces are made to not expand under pressure whereas some are meant to expand but not permanently, and it's designed to retract back.

Ellen: Sure.

Christian: Just basic things going on inside it. Cause you know, you would wonder like how does it- how does it not blow itself up? So a lot of different insects do something like this, but what makes the bombardier beetle different is the reaction that makes it hot. The chemical itself, a lot of different insects use this kind of chemical, but the bombardier beetle can shoot it.

Ellen: Oh, a little extra sting to it.

Christian: Yeah. Yeah. They eat other bugs, a lot of which would be considered pests. So that's a plus.

Ellen: I'll take it.

Christian: Point off though: they cannot fly. They do have wings though, so they're considered vestigial.

Ellen: Oh man, you got the wings and you can't fly! Join the penguin club, I guess, man.

Christian: So just like, just like a lot of ground beetles, they have wings that are covered by like a cap over it.

Ellen: Sure, sure. It makes me think of like a scarab.

Christian: Yeah, just like that. Those caps are usually the prettiest part of beetles.

Ellen: It's decorative.

Christian: Moving on: Ingenuity. I gave it a 5 out of 10.

Ellen: That's probably the best they could have hope before.

Christian: I mean, it knows to use the chemical attack when it needs to.

Ellen: Sure. It probably takes a little bit of know-how to like, know how to aim.

Christian: I suppose.

Ellen: Get your trajectory right where you like you hit what you're going for, but not yourself?

Christian: I guess. Yeah.

Ellen: I guess it requires a fair amount of expertise. You're essentially a gunner.

Christian: Although there are situations where aim does not matter. For example, I saw a video of a toad eating one, not this particular species, but a bombardier beetle in general. And then of course, it does what it does best inside the toad, and the toad throws it back up.

Ellen: Oh really? Did the beetle survive?

Christian: Looked like it. Yeah.

Ellen: Wow! Man. Sure.

Christian: Since toads and frogs eat their things whole usually. Right?

Ellen: Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. I guess they wouldn't really be trying to worry too much about like chewing it up and killing it first or anything.

Christian: Right.

Ellen: So I guess it would have that little escape opportunity.

Christian: Yep.

Ellen: That's pretty cool.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: You know, I like to give bonus points for like good, good, uh, evasive maneuvers.

Christian: Yeah. But again, I've considered that to be more of a...

Ellen: An effectiveness thing?

Christian: Yeah. And then the final category, aesthetics, 6 out of 10.

Ellen: That's not bad.

Christian: It's not the most interesting to look at as far as beetles go. It's not one of the pretty iridescent ones.

Ellen: Aw, man! I love those.

Christian: Yeah. So it's black and red, like a red orange mostly. The black part is its abdomen and the rest of it, like its head and its legs are reddish.

Ellen: It's a Sith beetle.

Christian: A what?

Ellen: Sith Beetle.

Christian: I don't know what- oh, a Sith, as in Star Wars?

Ellen: Yes! Because it's black and red.

Christian: Oh, okay. Yes. Excellent reference, wife unit.

Ellen: Thanks.

Christian: Alright. So that was my 6 out of 10 for aesthetics. Conservation status, there's no special listing.

Ellen: Sure.

Christian: Now, my fun little side story.

Ellen: The meat and potatoes. Let's get to it. I've been on pins and needles.

Christian: So this comes from the University of Cambridge, specifically their Darwin Correspondence Project. This comes from a letter that Darwin wrote to a Leonard Jenyns on October 17th, 1846.

Ellen: This is a throwback. Alright.

Christian: Yes. And it talks about the beetle that was related that I mentioned earlier, the Panagaeus cruxmajor.

Ellen: Okay.

Christian: The one that has a crucifix on its back.

Ellen: Cool. Cool, cool, cool, cool, cool.

Christian: And also before I go into it, just a reminder that the family is Carabidae, he will refer to it as Carabi. So I'm choosing a particular part of this letter. It's a pretty long letter, but this one I found interesting.

Ellen: An excerpt.

Christian: Yes. And it goes as such: I must tell you what happened to me on the banks of the Cam in my early entomological days; under a piece of bark I found two carabi (I forget which) & caught one in each hand, when lo & behold I saw a sacred Panagæus crux major; I could not bear to give up either of my Carabi, & to lose Panagæus was out of the question, so that in despair I gently seized one of the carabi between my teeth, when to my unspeakable disgust & pain the little inconsiderate beast squirted his acid down my throat & I lost both Carabi & Panagæus!"

Ellen: [laughter] Get wrecked! Oh my gosh. The, the... Audacity of this creature!

Christian: The little inconsiderate beast.

Ellen: You can- This is a letter that is what, 150 years old.

Christian: Yep.

Ellen: And you can just feel the seething like, frustration. The little inconsiderate beast! You can feel how mad he was. That is a timeless rage.

Christian: So I really enjoyed that.

Ellen: Gosh, I love that. You keep getting all these deep cuts, cause when what's his face was trash talking the manatee. You remember that?

Christian: Yep. I do remember that.

Ellen: That was a good one too. Dang.

Christian: So I think there might be a, I guess something to be taken away from this story. Something about greed or maybe the, you know... Bird in the hand worth two in the bush or something.

Ellen: A beetle in the teeth is...

Christian: Worth NOTHING.

Ellen: Is worth none in your hands.

Christian: So yeah.

Ellen: Oh my gosh. That was good. Oh, that's a good one. Thank you. Okay, so I guess the implication here is that like, he put a, uh, bombardier beetle...?

Christian: Wasn't a bombardier beetle. So remember I said a lot of these kinds of beetles will expel this kind of irritant.

Ellen: Oh, I see I see I see.

Christian: So I'm thinking this was the kind that was not a bombardier beetle, so it wasn't like super, super hot, but it was still an irritant.

Ellen: Okay, cool.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: Gosh, that's good.

Christian: So that's all I have for the American bombardier beetle.

Ellen: Good stuff. Thank you, my love.

Christian: Yes, and thank you again from Jungle Gym Queen and Sarah Beth Bradley.

Ellen: Yes. I have some audience responses that I'd like to share with you all.

Ellen: What'd you got for us?

Ellen: So this comes from our buddy, the Jungle Gym Queen, who also on Facebook goes as the Nagging Naturalist. Same Person. Yep. Twitter: Jungle Gym Queen, Facebook: Nagging Naturalist, who has a lot of really, really cool nature and conservation-based like, content. So very, very good stuff. Check them out on Facebook. So the Nagging Naturalist says in response to our peacock mantis shrimp segment in episode 19: "I have to contest Christian's peacock mantis shrimp score, or at least a feature he used towards their score, because for all of those color cones-" you remember how we talked about the color comes in the eyes of the peacock mantis shrimp- "peacock mantis shrimp can't actually process color the way we do. Being able to see more light waves than us doesn't necessarily mean they are good at interpreting what they're seeing. They're poor at discriminating between colors. However, when looking at what their photoreceptors focus on, it reveals that they have six receptors dedicated to processing on the UV spectrum as well as special crystalline cones that help filter UV specific wavelengths entering through their eyes. So being able to see UV light is thought to contribute to their communication, since they use polarized light to talk. Deep Look PBS did a good job covering the topic a few years ago," and then, uh, goes on to say "Counterpoint to my own, I have to give them props for having six pupils and hexnocular vision," as opposed to our vision, which is binocular, because two pupils. Theirs is hexnocular because they have six pupils. So I actually, I actually did look up this Deep Look PBS video on their vision and it was really interesting because it translated the light that they're seeing into light that we would be able to see, and it shows how they signal their location to each other using UV light that is visible to them, but not to us or anything else.

Christian: How do they produce the UV light though?

Ellen: It's not that they produce the light, it's that they have... I don't know if it's scales, but like their fins reflect that light that they can see that nobody else can see.

Christian: Okay. I guess they're just reflecting like the UV from the sun.

Ellen: Yup. Yup. They're just reflecting that light that nobody else would be able to pick up. This reminded me a little bit of when we were talking about the praying mantis having compound eyes, and you know, other bugs that have compound eyes, but the praying mantis having compound eyes doesn't necessarily mean that they see better than us because yes, they have very, very, very many eyes, but they don't see particularly well. So this is an example of quantity not necessarily meaning quality.

Christian: I see.

Ellen: Yeah.

Christian: Heh.

Ellen: So- Oh, do you now? Do you see? Spectacular. Thank you. All right. That's all I have. All right. Well, thank you so much to you, the listener for joining us this week as we hope you will every week forever for the rest of our lives as we continue making this show.

Christian: And even then after we upload our consciousness to a, uh...

Ellen: A hivemind.

Christian: I'm going to say a sentient otamatone.

Ellen: Okay, so we're going to have procedurally generated AI-concocted episodes. I really want to hear that. I like, I want to see someone do that thing where they take like, transcripts of our show- which are available on justthezooofus.com by the way- and feed it into like an AI program and then get a deep fake like, have like an AI-generated....

Christian: "I made this AI read a thousand hours of Just the Zoo of Us transcripts and this is what it came up with," it's just 5 pages of fartboat.

Ellen: Which has been retired, and then brought back by now, by the way, and that's some deep lore from our Facebook group. But so anyway, sorry for all of that that you just heard, but...

Christian: I'm not.

Ellen: Thank you to everybody who's been listening, especially especially thank you to people who have been telling your friends about us and reviewing us and rating us on your podcatchers. It means a lot to us and it makes us really happy and it makes us want to keep making this show, so thank you for doing that. You can connect with us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. Just just search the title of the show. You'll get there.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: Also please come hang out with us in our really cool and awesome Facebook group that's called Just the Zoo of Us: Official Friend Squad. It's like the best group ever and you guys are really great and you make it an awesome group.

Christian: Good stuff.

Christian: We've been having a great time. If you have an animal species you want to hear us review, you can submit those to us. You can hit us up on social media and get those to us, or if you'd rather you can email them to us at ellen@justthezooofus.com. A transcript of this episode and all the other episodes can be found at www.justthezooofus.com and last note, I want to thank Louie Zong for the use of his song "Adventuring" off of his album, Bee Sides.

Ellen: Always a pleasure to listen to.

Christian: Yup. We love it. In fact, you're about to hear it right now. Here it comes.

Christian: Oh!

Ellen: Bye!

Christian: Bye yall!

20: Jaguar & Bearded Vulture

Christian: Hi everyone, this is Christian Weatherford!

Ellen: And this is Ellen Weatherford.

Christian: And you're listening to Just the Zoo of Us, a podcast where we take your favorite animals and give them ratings from 1 to 10. Or, I guess it could be zero to 10.

Ellen: We did give a zero, didn't we?

Christian: I don't remember.

Ellen: I think you gave the botfly a zero for aesthetics. I think

Christian: That makes sense. So yeah. Thanks for coming to our podcast. We give those ratings in three categories: effectiveness, ingenuity, and aesthetics. We are not zoological experts.

Ellen: Nope, not yet. They haven't given us our honorary zoology credentials yet. We're working on them.

Christian: I want mine printed on a crystal stein.

Ellen: I'm hoping that if we just make enough of these, eventually somebody will give us an honorary degree in zoology.

Christian: That's probably how it works. While we are not experts, we do try to get our information from trustworthy resources. I think that's it for the intro. Yeah?

Ellen: Yeah. Let's jump right in! Every single passing second that I'm not talking about my animal for this week is physically painful to me and I really want to get to it.

Christian: Yeah, you can't see, but Ellen is a visibly shaking as if a glass being resonated by a sound.

Ellen: I'm vibrating with energy to talk about this animal. I'm so excited about it.

Christian: But you're gonna have to wait cause I'm first!

Ellen: That's right. Christian's up first this week. What do you have for us?

Christian: This week, I have the jaguar (jag-wah), also known as the jaguar.

Ellen: You said jag-wire. That's weird. Why did you say it weird?

Christian: How do you pronounce jag-wire?

Google: That's pronounced "jaguar."

Ellen: Jag-war!

Christian: Jaguar.

Ellen: Thank you.

Christian: G-W-A-R, like that band. Okay. This week I have the jaguar.

Ellen: Thank you.

Christian: Scientific Name, Panthera onca.

Ellen: Panthera... Onca.

Christian: I assume that's how that's pronounced. O-N-C-A.

Ellen: Sounds right.

Christian: This species was submitted by Brandon Everfolly.

Ellen: Who has described the jaguar as his favorite animal.

Christian: It's also a close to home species for us. We have a professional football league named after them, the Jacksonville Jaguars.

Ellen: Yep.

Christian: I don't have any other information about that.

Ellen: I'm sorry guys. We're not sports fans, but we know about the Jaguars cause we live here. But that's really about the end of my information that I have. Apparently if you watch The Good Place, there's a lot of references to them.

Christian: There's also a a chant, but we won't go... We won't go there.

Ellen: No, we won't disturb your families and pets with our... With our cry.

Christian: I'm pulling information this week from once again, Animal Diversity Web, also NationalGeographic.org and, finally, panthera.org. So, a little basics about the jaguar. I'm going to pronounce it differently every time.

Ellen: Please don't. Please do this normal.

Christian: Ja-goor.

Ellen: I hate this episode already.

Christian: Maybe this is why people refer to the football team as the jags.

Ellen: This is a hot mess of an episode.

Christian: I'm learning so much. Adult size, so the jag... You know, the scientific name would be easier in this case. So the jaguar, the head and body length is 5 to 6 feet, or approximately 150 to 180 centimeters.

Ellen: That's a big kitty.

Christian: Yes, very big. Just the body alone is about as long as I am tall, basically. Just the body, because the tail is 27.5 to 36 inches, or approximately 70 to 90 centimeters.

Ellen: Long tail for a long cat.

Christian: Very long. They weigh from 100 to 250 pounds, or 45 to 133 kilograms. And what's interesting about their size is they can vary quite a bit depending on where you find them.

Ellen: Oh, where you find them?

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: Oh, interesting.

Christian: So for example... Well, so first of all, males are larger, but also going back to the geographic point, the largest ones are found in Brazilian Pantanal, while the smaller ones, I should say, the smallest ones are found in Honduras. And speaking of locations, you can kind of get an idea of where they're located based on what I just said. But they are found in 18 countries across Latin America, from Mexico to Argentina, Mexico being the southernmost country in North America, all the way through most of South America. And while that sounds impressive, that's actually smaller than what it used to be.

Ellen: Oh.

Christian: So for example, today, they're rarely spotted in the southwest USA...

Ellen: Hehe. Spotted.

Christian: Heh! No, aesthetics is later!

Ellen: I had to get one good pun in. You always get all the good ones.

Christian: You're right. So yeah, even today you can- there are rare sightings of them in the southwest USA, though there's not thought to have been a breeding population in over 50 years.

Ellen: Wow.

Christian: They're often found in forests, rainforests, scrub forest and swamps. But they're very often found in were called riparian habitats.

Ellen: Riparian?

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: What does that mean?

Christian: Which means areas next to a body of water.

Ellen: Oh, okay.

Christian: So usually river or stream. They belong to the taxonomic family Felidae. That's just the cat family, basically.

Ellen: The kitties.

Christian: But a more interesting evolutionary relative is its genus, Panthera. So that genus is also nicknamed the roaring cats.

Ellen: Roaring cats!

Christian: And the other things that are in there are lions, leopards and tigers.

Ellen: Okay. So these are the ones that roar as opposed to what, mew?

Christian: Mrow. Like cheetahs.

Ellen: Oh, that's true. Oh, I love the sound cheetahs make. It's so cute.

Christian: Yup. I think our own cat is actually doing this to us right now through the door.

Ellen: Hopefully our mics don't pick it up.

Christian: Here's hoping. So I'm just gonna jump right in. First category, effectiveness, how good do they do the things they do?

Ellen: These are physical adaptations.

Christian: Yes. Um, like wings, claws, uhh...

Ellen: They have one of those things.

Christian: Back mounted... Water cannons.

Ellen: Turrets. Yeah. We've talked about an animal with turrets.

Christian: I was referring to Blastoise, but...

Ellen: I was talking about a chameleon, but all right.

Christian: Okay. So effectiveness. I'm giving the jaguar a full 10 out of 10.

Ellen: Not surprising.

Christian: Shouldn't be. Because they have strong jaws that are meant to kill with a single bite. And I will talk a little bit more about that in my ingenuity section, but just know they have very good jaws meant for this purpose.

Ellen: Good chompers.

Christian: Overall, they are built for power, not speed.

Ellen: Really?

Christian: Yes. They're able to do short sprints if they need to, but that's not really where they excel.

Ellen: That makes sense because they live in pretty densely forested areas. Right? Not a lot of really sprinting room.

Christian: Right.

Ellen: Probably not a lot of area for them to necessarily run.

Christian: Yep, exactly.

Ellen: Makes sense.

Christian: They can drag very heavy prey. I'll come back to that in ingenuity, actually.

Ellen: Okay.

Christian: They can climb trees, of course, with their big claws.

Ellen: Big. Meaty. Claws.

Christian: They're good swimmers, which is odd. A lot of the big cats actually go great lengths to avoid bodies of water, but with the jaguar, it not only loves the water, but hunts in it.

Ellen: Hunts in the- what! Hunts IN the water?

Christian: They're very good swimmers.

Ellen: Huh! Like it gets in the water and like, waits for things to...

Christian: It will go after things in the water.

Ellen: What.

Christian: Not just that, but it's an option for it.

Ellen: This is an amphibious cat. It's an all-terrain cat.

Christian: It likes the water. Don't know. It eats lots of different prey. These include peccaries, tapirs, deer, caimans, turtles...

Ellen: Caimans being like, the crocodilian.

Christian: Of South America.

Ellen: Huh.

Christian: Yep.

Ellen: Okay. Get it.

Christian: Turtles, snakes, porcupines...

Ellen: Oh!

Christian: Yeah. I guess it just, uh...

Ellen: Forbidden snack.

Christian: Prickly boy. Fish and large birds. And at the beginning of that list I mentioned peccaries, which I didn't-

Ellen: I think it's a peccary. [pronunciation correction]

Christian: Peccaries?

Ellen: Yeah. I think that's it.

Christian: So anyway, I didn't know what this was prior to reading this. It is a animal that looks a lot like pig...

Ellen: ...Okay.

Christian: Lot like pig.

Ellen: Much like pig, yes.

Christian: But it's actually not the same as the pigs that you and I are used to, which come from Europe. I won't go into any other detail about that because maybe that would be a future animal.

Ellen: You already got to talk about one pig!

Christian: Oh, that's... Did I?

Ellen: You talked about the warthog.

Christian: Yeah, you right.

Ellen: So you did talk about one pig already. Well, maybe when we do a 30 to 50 feral hog segment, then we can come back to the peccaries.

Christian: And they're also, the jaguar is a keystone species. One definition of that phrase is a species on which other species in an ecosystem largely depend, such that if it were removed, the ecosystem would change drastically.

Ellen: I would imagine this would be the case with it being such an Apex Predator.

Christian: Yeah, yeah.

Ellen: That eats literally everything in its sight.

Christian: It's definitely at the top of the food chain. It's really, it's only real threat is humans.

Ellen: Dang. Get countered.

Christian: Yeah. And then finally, for effectiveness, built in camouflage. So the way its fur is, and the patterns, it lends itself to blending in with the shady forest.

Ellen: A lot of times it's really easy to confuse a jaguar with a leopard because they just kind of have a similar sort of shape, and they both are just kind of like brown cat with spots. But you can tell a Jaguar from a leopard because the jaguars spots are in the shapes of rosettes. So, how they're not like a circular spot. It looks like a rose.

Christian: Yeah. Yeah. Which I actually have that term later on in, in the aesthetics part.

Ellen: Oh, okay- well then you do have it then!

Christian: I was just going to talk about what the spots look like. I wasn't going to compare it to the leopard.

Ellen: Oh, okay.

Christian: Um, I think also a big tell is where you are currently located, right? Cause those are different continents.

Ellen: Yeah. Very different. Well, one other thing is that when people talk about a black panther, it could be a jaguar or it could be a leopard.

Christian: That makes sense.

Ellen: It's just either one of those that has melanism. That's all.

Christian: Yes. So, moving on to ingenuity. This is the smart things that does. Tactics, using tools, that sort of thing.

Ellen: Clever boy.

Christian: Once again, full 10 out of 10. So first of all, I alluded to this before, but they're very stealthy. You know, they got those big paws, they have the camouflage, and their main method of hunting is to pounce on prey from concealed spots.

Ellen: Oh, so they hide and wait?

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: Oh, this is a, this is a rogue.

Christian: So that could be from dense vegetatio, that could be from a tree branch, that sort of thing. And now I want to talk about how they kill with a single bite.

Ellen: How they kill with a single bite?

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: With a single bite, yes.

Christian: Well, they go for the single bite. It might take a couple, but what they're going for is two different things. They'll either go for the neck, and what they're going for there is suffocation. Or they'll use their canines to pierce to the back of the skull.

Ellen: Really?

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: So that requires some sort of understanding of the anatomy of the prey that they're going for, that like it will do extra damage if I hit them in these particular spots.

Christian: Yeah. And then, for some kinds of animals, or prey I should say, they might not have both as an option. So for example, there's a very popular video out there that you can see of a jaguar hunting a caiman. It might be labeled as a crocodile, but it's most likely a caiman. You'll see this jaguar's swimming through a river coming up to a sandbank that has a caiman on it, looking the other direction, just kind of basking. Swimming up behind it, gets onto the sandbank and jumps on it and just bites it in the back of the head.

Ellen: Oh my gosh. That takes such confidence.

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: That it has to know for sure that it can take that caiman.

Christian: Yeah. And this one is, it was at least the same size as it, so it's not like a tiny little baby one.

Ellen: That's almost arrogance at that point. It's like, yeah, this crocodile is just chilling, doesn't even know I'm here, doesn't want anything to do with me. I'm just going to go ahead and K.O.

Christian: Hey, um, Icarus, stay away from that sun. That scaly, scaly sun. So yeah, that's an interesting method, I should say. And then also, kind of coming off something I said earlier, is their ability to carry large heavy things. What they do is after they kill their prey, they will carry it off to a secluded spot to eat them. It's been recorded that they can even drag away things as large as the sea turtle.

Ellen: I'm sorry, a sea turtle?

Christian: Yes. A sea turtle.

Ellen: Where did they find a sea turtle in the rainforest?

Christian: On the beach, I guess. Weighing up to 34 kilograms, or 75 pounds.

Ellen: Wow.

Christian: Yes. And that's with its mouth.

Ellen: Yeah. Cause they're having to use all of their paws to climb up, so that's just pure like jaw and neck muscle.

Christian: Yes. And if you see close up pictures of jaguars, you can kind of tell that they have that beefy, beefy jawbone.

Ellen: Yeah. It gives their head a very wide and...

Christian: Almost square.

Ellen: Yeah, very boxy shape. Yeah. It gives them a very broad shape to their head that I think makes their face very definable.

Christian: You know, it's odd. I saw a picture of one yawning, and you could see the inside of its cheeks and whatnot. It honestly reminded me of like, the American pit bull.

Ellen: Yeah. I feel like their fur is not very thick, so you can see sort of the definition of their muscle under their fur, cause it's kind of a thin layer of fur. So you can see like exactly how muscular they are.

Christian: Yes. Speaking of fur, that brings us to the final category: aesthetics. This one's self-explanatory, how...

Ellen: Pretty.

Christian: How pretty they be... 10 out of 10.

Ellen: Across the board, a perfect score!

Christian: Yep.

Ellen: 10, 10, 10! The judges!

Christian: Two of them were sick. Just right off the bat, they're just absolutely beautiful. They're very pretty.

Ellen: I agree.

Christian: Um, so I'm just going to talk about what they look like, for those that may be not so familiar with what they look like. But they have an off-white belly, and their base coat can range from a pale yellow to a reddish brown, and their black spots like we talked about earlier, they are rosette shape. It's on their body and limbs. Melanistic jaguars, like we talked about earlier, they are fairly common and have a black base coat, and the spots are barely visible but they're still there.

Ellen: You can see them in like, the right light.

Christian: Direct sunlight, I feel like.

Ellen: Yeah. Then you can kind of see that the spots are still there.

Christian: Yeah. But, you know, how often are you going to see a jaguar in direct light, right?

Ellen: I mean, we have jaguars at our zoo.

Christian: And they're always sleeping.

Ellen: And they're ALWAYS sleeping. Except for one time, I saw one that was like rolling around on a rock and it was really cute.

Christian: I did see that they are more active around when the sun is setting, in early nighttime.

Ellen: Okay. That would explain it then. Cause I'm always there really, really early in the morning.

Christian: Yeah. They'll still do stuff throughout the day. It's just they're more active at that time.

Ellen: That makes sense.

Christian: But yeah, 10 out of 10. I think they're really cool looking. Like you mentioned, they have very nice fur, their eyes are very striking and they have the teeth and the color, it's just- it all comes together in a nice little package. Miscellaneous info about our jaguar friends: conservation status, they are near threatened based on the IUCN Red List. They've been eradicated from 40% of their historic range. They are often poached for their hide, teeth and paws. So unfortunately-

Ellen: Their paws?

Christian: Yes, their paws.

Ellen: What?

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: That's not something I've heard before, I don't think.

Christian: I'm not sure what the use case is. Probably just taxidermy.

Ellen: A trophy of some sort maybe?

Christian: But yeah, so unfortunately with how beautiful they are there, their hides are in high demand in the illegal poaching market. Um, they're also killed by farmers in an attempt to protect their livestock, cause unfortunately, it's kind of cyclical where you know, as they're losing habitat and prey, sometimes that's their only option, is to resort to killing livestock.

Ellen: It doesn't work out great for the farmers, but you got to do what you gotta do.

Christian: Yeah. Yeah. So the jaguar is the largest cat in the Americas and is the only representative of the genus Panthera. Like I said earlier, Panthera is the roaring cats. So of course you have lions, tigers and leopards are elsewhere in the world.

Ellen: Makes you wonder how the jaguars got over here and all the other roaring cats stayed behind.

Christian: Yeah, I did come across some more prehistoric studies on this species, but I didn't go too deep into it.

Ellen: Oh.

Christian: Yeah. But it's- it's out there for those that are curious. I also want to talk about their babies...

Ellen: YES THANK YOU.

Christian: And this will be my final topic, but their babies are very, very cute. Don't have any other way to describe that, but here's some facts about them.

Christian: Yes!

Christian: Their offspring are called cubs, of course. Females will drive away the males after mating, and especially after the cubs are born. So after that point, it's just Mama. They give birth to an average of two cubs, although it can be anywhere from one to four, and their cubs are born with their eyes closed, like many other cats. And they don't open until they're two weeks old.

Christian: Just little blind kittens!

Christian: So they're little helpless kittens at that point.

Ellen: Oh, bless those little sweeties.

Christian: They nurse for the first five to six months of their life. After that, they start hunting with their mom, but their mom is still largely supplying them with food early on. They're pretty much dependent on the mother until they're two years old. They're kind of by themselves usually, and they only meet up for reproduction.

Ellen: Yeah. They don't travel in packs or anything like that.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: In our local Jacksonville Zoo, a have now two jaguars. Right? They got two new jaguars? Last week I went to the zoo and I actually kind of went to go see the jaguars, but um, I saw one of them and she was just sleeping on a rock, as she tends to do.

Christian: Every time.

Ellen: Yep. That's all they're ever doing is just sleeping on rocks.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: I have gotten some really cute pictures of the ones that the zoo where like, one was like... He was on the rock, but he was like rolling around. Yeah, like doing that kitty cat thing where he was like rubbing his head on a rock and it was really cute. But other than that, they're usually just sleeping.

Christian: I love it.

Ellen: They're really hard to find.

Christian: Oh, like in the exhibit.

Ellen: Yes. They're very hard to find! You can see that like, natural camouflage at work.

Christian: Yep. For sure.

Ellen: They're kind of a big um, point of pride I think for our zoo because the jaguars are kind of our local like, sports team mascot. So people really have a lot of connection to the jaguar around here, which is weird cause like they don't live here.

Christian: Used to, long, long time ago.

Ellen: Yeah. But like way before Jacksonville was a thing. So yeah, it's just kind of weird because it was like, this is not an animal that has anything to do with our city, but it's our sports team mascot, so everybody loves it.

Christian: Yeah. So in the areas that they're found, they have a huge cultural significance, especially with the indigenous peoples of Central and South America. You can see that in prehistoric paintings and depictions, even

Ellen: Lots of Aztec and Mayan art that depicts jaguars. And they're usually of like holy- they're like deities.

Christian: But I can see why. I mean they're pretty impressive.

Ellen: Yeah. Cause I would imagine that way back during the time when these civilizations were kind of in their prime, the jaguar was probably the primary threat. I feel like if you don't have a firearm, you kind of don't stand a chance against a jaguar.

Christian: Probably. So yeah, that's the jaguar.

Ellen: Excellent. Thank you so much! I really enjoyed that. That was really cool.

Christian: No problem.

Ellen: That is our first ever perfect score. Complete total sweep.

Christian: Really? I guess it had to happen eventually.

Ellen: I think it was well earned. I hope it's the first of many.

Christian: We'll see.

Ellen: 10, 10, 10.

Christian: Well now we have the rubric to which...

Ellen: The jaguar is now the gold standard by which every other animal will be measured.

Christian: Exactly.

Ellen: Very good. Thank you, my love.

Christian: Any time.

Ellen: So, before we move on to our next animal, I just want to let you guys know real quick that we have a patreon out there floating around Patreon.com/justthezooofus. That's what we are using to kind of gather some support that will help us grow the show, so we're really, really excited about that. You can get access to some really cool extras, so a feed of the show without ads, which is probably becoming increasingly desirable as we have picked up some new sponsors, so our ad segment might be growing a tad, so if you want to skip all of those, you can do so for as little as $1 per month on our Patreon. We also have other cool things like a patron discord server and I'm going to start sending out photo prints to our patrons once a month, which is going to be a lot of fun. So check us out at Patreon.com/justthezooofus for this week's episode. I want to thank our patrons, Briana Feinberg and Krystina Sanders. Thank you so much for supporting us.

Christian: Yeah, thank you!

Christian: Alright, hun. The time has come.

Ellen: Thank you. Thank God. I'm so excited.

Christian: What is your animal for this week?

Ellen: This week, I am so delighted to be bringing you, Ellen Weatherford presents: the bearded vulture.

Christian: The burb?

Ellen: A big- yeah, the big one.

Christian: Okay!

Ellen: The bearded vulture, also known as the lammergeier. That's their German name, the lammergeier.

Christian: Interesting.

Ellen: Yeah, and that translates to lamb vulture. Or like, lamb taker.

Christian: Uh oh.

Ellen: Yeah, that's a misnomer. They don't do that. The scientific name of the bearded vulture is Gypaetus barbatus.

Christian: I like it.

Ellen: Yes. This species was requested by Jennifer Perez. Thank you, Jennifer.

Christian: Thanks, Jennifer!

Ellen: Yeah, and I'm really glad that you did because I've been really wanting to talk about this animal. This is so good. I'm getting this information from the World Wildlife Fund for Nature, Animal Diversity Web, and the National Audubon Society. If you've never met the bearded vulture, this bird has a length of o1 to 1.25 meters, or 3 to 4 feet. That is the length of the body.

Christian: Oh no.

Ellen: The wingspan of the bearded vulture: up to 2.8 meters, or 9 feet.

Christian: Yeah...

Ellen: A nine foot wingspan.

Christian: Yikes.

Ellen: Yes. This is a living dinosaur. I mean all birds are living dinosaurs, but this one's especially so. This one is SUPER dinosaur.

Christian: It's got the "oomph" to back it up.

Ellen: Now the females, this is interesting- the females tend to be the larger ones.

Christian: Okay!

Ellen: It's really easy to identify bearded vultures. First of all, because of their size. They are absolutely massive, but it's easy to tell them apart from other vultures because bearded vultures have a thick mane of feathers around their head and their neck, which most vultures have that pretty characteristic bald head.

Christian: Right.

Ellen: They don't. They have a very, very thick mane of feathers. This is particularly spectacular because it is white with these black bands around their eyes, so it gives them a very striking, masked appearance.

Christian: Fierce.

Ellen: Yes, but they get their name bearded vulture from a tuft of black bristles that they have underneath their beak that looks like a little... Looks like a little beard poking out. You're going to find these big boys way high up in the mountains throughout Europe, Asia and Africa. You find them in rocky craggy mountainous areas, but you can kind of find them all... They're especially well known in the Pyrenees and the Alps, but you can also find them throughout like the Balkans and even in Africa.

Christian: Okay. I was wondering why it had a German name and that makes sense.

Ellen: Yeah. Their populations are kind of declining in those areas, but you can find them in like the Alps and the Pyrenees.

Christian: Gotcha.

Ellen: Now their taxonomic family is Accipitridae, which we've visited before with the osprey.

Christian: Oh yeah.

Ellen: This is the same taxonomic family as many hawks, eagles, and Old World vultures.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: So I want to take a quick minute to talk about "Old World vultures" versus "New World vultures." These are two different groups. As their names would imply, Old World vultures are found in Africa, Asia and Europe, whereas New World vultures are found in the Americas.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: They're not related. They have some very similar characteristics like the bald head and kind of the hooked beak, they're scavengers, but they're no more related to each other than like, eagles and hawks and stuff like that.

Christian: Interesting.

Ellen: No further relation. So this is an example of convergent evolution. They're separate species that have really nothing to do with each other, but they developed the same traits independently of each other for the same reasons. So both of these groups share the identifiable bald head, which is believed to be an adaptation that keeps their head and their face from overheating.

Christian: Oh, okay.

Ellen: Some people also say that the lack of feathers on their face keeps the blood and the gunk from the carrion from getting their feathers stuck together, but there's not really a lot that kind of shows that. So it's just kind of belief that it's for the cooling factor of keeping their face clean.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: One major difference between the two groups of vultures is that New World vultures rely more heavily on their sense of smell to find their food, whereas Old World vultures are scavenging based on sight, so they actually can't smell very well. They are just using their eyes to find their, I wouldn't say prey cause they're not really hunting, but they're using their eyes to find their food rather than a sense of smell. So, although bearded vultures are usually considered an Old World vulture, they're not actually very closely related to the other Old World vultures. No more related than like a hawk or an eagle.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: So you can tell that they're very different from other vultures by just like, their appearance and the way that they look. Them and Egyptian vultures form this sort of subfamily of the Accipitridae family. So they're kind of their own thing, a little bit. So that's your background on the bearded vulture.

Christian: I'm already very excited.

Ellen: He's great. So I'm gonna move into my ratings for the bearded vulture. First up, we've got effectiveness. For effectiveness, I'm giving the bearded vulture an 8 out of 10.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: So the bearded vulture's diet is really unique in that it consists almost entirely of bones.

Christian: Oh!

Ellen: Just bones. About 80 to 90% of what they eat is bones. Yeah. That's pretty... Not usual.

Christian: Right.

Ellen: That's not very standard fare for most animals. So bones are a really uncommon dietary choice for animals because of how nearly impossible it is to eat and also to digest. So in order to actually eat bone, bearded vultures have an extremely acidic stomach that is strong enough to dissolve bone. So they're rewarded for this adaptation with a food source that ends up being really, really high in calcium. Like turns out if you actually can eat it, it's really, really like just chockfull full of like calories and...

Christian: Like, ah... #iatethebones.

Ellen: I can't believe you found a way to...

Christian: I think I'm the only person on the planet that remembers that commercial.

Ellen: You are definitely the only person on the planet that not only remembers that commercial, but quotes it on at least a daily, if not like... Three to five times a week, you quote this commercial. So if anybody out there still remembers the "I ate the bones" commercial, please connect with Christian because he needs a support group.

Christian: Please...

Ellen: Validate Christian. So not only are the bones themselves very nutritionally dense and high in calcium and pretty good for them to eat, there's also a marrow inside that is just chock full of nutrients. It's very, very good to eat if you can get to it.

Christian: Sure. People eat bone marrow too.

Ellen: Yeah. So that's a nice little treat for them once they break through all the bone in there. And what's also really cool about having a diet based on bone is that there's pretty much no competition for bones.

Christian: Guess so.

Ellen: There's very, very low demand from other predators.

Christian: Except time, I guess.

Ellen: I mean, at the maybe like, century level.

Christian: A glacial pace.

Ellen: Yeah. Like I don't think they-

Christian: I gotta eat this before it goes bad.

Ellen: I don't think they have to worry about that. But so they don't really have to compete for their food with anybody else, other than like other bearded vultures.

Christian: These do not extend to Africa, right?

Ellen: Yes. They're in Africa.

Christian: These are in Africa?

Ellen: Yes.

Christian: So hyenas maybe?

Ellen: I mean they'll- they'll eat them sometimes, but it's not really very important to them. They're really after the meat. So this is just a really interesting and unique food source for them. Now, they have really, really excellent eyesight. It lets them spot their meals from way high up in the sky. So when they're flying around way, way, way up high in the air, they can see well enough to spot the carrion, which is particularly impressive since they're eating dead animals, their prey is not moving. Right? Imagine how good your eyesight has to be to spot a completely still target from way up in the air while you're flying around.

Christian: Probably difficult.

Ellen: Yeah! And when you're flying around in the mountains, like it's just- it's hard to spot stuff already, so yeah, they have good eyesight. I did deduct a couple of points for the fact that they do eat bones, but their beak and claws aren't actually strong enough to break the bones.

Christian: Oh!

Ellen: Yeah. When I saw that they eat bones, I thought, "oh, that must- like they must be strong enough to break through, like a hyena." Right?

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: The hyena has those powerful jaw muscles that lets it just snap right through, but the bearded vulture actually cannot break the bones.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: However... It has a plan.

Christian: Okay...

Ellen: Which brings me to ingenuity. I give the bearded vulture a 10 out of 10 for ingenuity. Even though by itself it is not strong enough to break through the bone, if a bone is too tough for the vulture to break on its own, it grabs the bone in its talons, carries it up high into the air, finds a jagged rocky- like a crag or something like that, and drops the bone from the air, letting it fall, fall down all the way down to the ground and shatter the bone into pieces.

Christian: Huh! I guess I've got to be pretty big bones, huh? Because else you're not gonna get that speed.

Ellen: Yeah. These are like- yeah, these are like femurs and stuff like that. These are like the big chonky bones. So they drop them all the way from up in the sky and the bone falls and uses the sheer force of fall damage to shatter the bone into little bitty bits. And those small pieces are small enough for the vulture to swallow whole.

Christian: Sounds so unpleasant, just the swallowing part mostly.

Ellen: I mean, for us, sure. But that's how they eat the- that's how they eat bones. They swallow the chunks of them whole.

Christian: I guess that's their only option.

Ellen: Yeah. I mean, like I said, they can't exactly chew them. So, yeah, I felt like that was a very, very interesting tactic when you yourself are not strong enough to do the cracking.

Christian: I wonder if there's any recorded events where maybe this bird would drop a bone, I don't know, in the middle of the street.

Ellen: So there is kind of a... An old Greek myth saying there was like, a dude that got killed by a falling tortoise that was dropped from the sky by an eagle that was believed to be a bearded vulture.

Christian: Oh!

Ellen: Yeah, so that was actually the next thing I was going to say, that they use this airdrop strategy to kill tortoises.

Christian: Oh.

Ellen: Yeah. So they use it to break open bones, but they will also use it to prey on tortoises that would otherwise be too tough for them to break through.

Christian: In the story, did the tortoise died?

Ellen: I'm sure. I don't think the tortoise was really the focus of the story.

Christian: It's my focus.

Ellen: I know, I'm way more concerned about whether the tortoise was okay.

Christian: Some Greek guy...

Ellen: So I thought that was really interesting that they're using it to negate that armor so that they can get at the little chewy bits inside. Another pretty smart thing that they do, also concerning fall damage, is that they have been documented cornering larger prey- these are larger prey like ungulates, like goats that you might find up in the mountains or something...

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: They corner them at cliff edges and back them up by intimidating them by flapping their wings. So they have these huge nine foot wide wings. Right?

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: They flap their wings and just make this really big display, like this really big threatening display and the prey gets scared and the vulture presses forward and just backs them up further and further until they fall over the edge of the cliff.

Christian: Dang...

Ellen: Yeah. They just intimidate them into falling off the cliff and then they die.

Christian: I mean, what I'm taking from this is make sure these birds never run out of bones because, jeez, they'll go to great lengths to make bones.

Ellen: Yeah. When they can't find carrion, they will make carrion. So what is pretty cool is that when a bearded vulture spots carrion, when they find like a dead animal that's already died and it's sitting there, they will actually not go straight in for it. So they'll kinda chill nearby and keep an eye on it and they'll wait for other vultures to come in and pick the meat off. So other vultures are there for the meat, so they'll wait for other scavengers to move in, basically clean the carcass off, and then once those scavengers move on to find other carcasses, then the bearded vulture comes in and finishes the job.

Christian: How bizarre is that for the other vultures, do you think? It's like the person waiting, like, "hey, when you finish that pizza, I want the crusts. You better leave the crusts."

Ellen: And you're like, "are, are you- Are you sure? There's like...."

Christian: It's not even cheese-stuffed, bro.

Ellen: Yeah. Like "are you sure you want-" and they're like "GIVE ME THAT CRUST"

Christian: Or you're next!

Ellen: And then they- and then they pick up the crust and bring it to the top of the restaurant and drop it off the roof. Something else that's not bone related to the bearded vulture. When you look at an adult bearded vulture, you might notice that its feathers are bright red or orange. Yeah. They're not naturally like that. They're white. This is actually intentional. The bird is doing this on purpose. So what they do is they bathe in these springs where the water is really, really high in iron and then the iron clings to their feathers and it stains their feathers dark orange or red.

Christian: That's pretty cool.

Ellen: It's really cool! They're doing it on purpose, and you can tell that they're doing it on purpose because when they go back home to their nests, they rub their feathers on their babies and on their eggs to get the iron on them too.

Christian: Huh!

Ellen: Yeah. You can tell that they're doing it on purpose cause they're like trying to spread it.

Christian: But why?

Ellen: So there have been a few suggested reasons for why they're doing this. None of them have really been completely confirmed, but one kind of leading theory is that the iron in the dirt that they're getting in their feathers protects them from parasites, and that it can kind of serve as almost like an antibacterial or something, but that it keeps them healthier and protects them from parasites.

Christian: I have an alternate theory.

Ellen: Well, there's one more.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: Another theory is that the bright colors are a display and that they're doing it for looks either to intimidate rivals or to attract mates. It could be either one.

Christian: Okay, so my alternate theory is related to number two.

Ellen: Okay. What is it?

Christian: Can't eat bones if you ain't cute.

Ellen: There is also the third theory that they're in it for the gram. They're doing it for the aesthetic. That could be it.

Christian: Treat yourself.

Ellen: Yeah.

Christian: Bearded vultures deserve fashion too.

Ellen: They do. You're right and you know what? They excel at it. So yeah, I gave them some points for that. Whatever their reasoning may be, they sure do seem dead set on it because apparently they will do this even in captivity. So this is a behavior that they don't necessarily have to learn from their parents, this is something that they will do even if- they will do it in captivity, if they're left undisturbed. So they won't do it if you're watching them. Yeah, it's pretty interesting.

Christian: It doesn't want to give away the trade secrets.

Ellen: They're apparently very private. Like there's a lot of things in captivity that like they won't... They won't do their normal stuff if they're in captivity and like, being observed. They're very secretive.

Christian: Can't let us see how they blend their rouge.

Ellen: You mean you're not going to find any bearded vulture makeup tutorials on Youtube?

Christian: Check out this eyeliner, with the wings.

Ellen: I can't believe you've done this. I don't wear makeup, but I find makeup tutorial videos so soothing to watch. I love watching them. I love watching people do makeup, even though I don't wear makeup myself. So I would love to see a bearded vulture makeup tutorial. I would love that.

Christian: I've unfortunately expended all of my knowledge and vocabulary about makeup.

Ellen: I know you're at your limit. I'm sorry to have done this to you. Contour, you got that one?

Christian: That sounds like a bird.

Ellen: That's a condor. *gasp* Condor contours! That's going to be my new youtube channel. It's going to be all about vultures and their beauty regimen.

Christian: Very good.

Ellen: So bearded vultures are normally solitary unless they are part of a breeding pair. So during their mating season, they will mate and form these duos. So when they're breeding, a male and a female- or, on rare occasions, two males and a female...

Christian: Okay...

Ellen: ...Will share their territory and kind of work together to protect their nest and feed their offspring. So there have been actually some recorded cases of triads with two males. They don't particularly enjoy it. They still fight a lot. They still fight a lot, but they will at least...

Christian: But not enough to like...

Ellen: They won't kill each other.

Christian: Or to go and do their own thing.

Ellen: Yeah. Not enough to leave, I guess. So what is kind of interesting about bearded vultures, as opposed to other species of vultures, is that they feed their offspring actual carrion. They don't... They don't regurgitate to their young, they bring the food back to the young and give it to them.

Christian: Can you imagine regurgitating bone shards?

Ellen: Oh my god. I mean then you're-

Christian: I don't know how it gets down in the first place. I don't want to chance it coming back up.

Ellen: So maybe that's why they bring the carrion back instead of. uh- But so they do bring the softer things back for the babies. They'll bring back meat or something that's a little bit easier for the babies to eat. Now young bearded vultures actually engage in play.

Christian: Ooh!

Ellen: So what they do is they'll fly really high up in the air and then they'll do these dive bombs down towards the ground. And while they're on their way towards the ground, they will do all sorts of really cool tricks. Like they flip and they roll and all these other acrobatic sort of displays. Um, so these are really important skills for them because they'll benefit them later in life when they're fighting to protect their territory, or to court a mate. Actually a bearded vultures that are courting each other will do these insanely technical like sky dances where they fly all around each other and do all these crazy tricks where they tumble in the air and they'll like, grapple with each other and they'll actually fly towards each other and like fall to the ground and like grapple as they're falling.

Christian: Well. Yeah, that's, that's how we met. Remember? We, um... We, we each had a blue angel fighter jet and then we did these sick stunts in the sky.

Ellen: We did. Not a lot of people know this, but we're actually Mech anime characters.

Christian: NANI?!

Ellen: We're actually anime characters and we've been, uh, we have been Gundam this whole time.

Christian: Am I Gundam?

Ellen: Yes. We're all Gundam. So like the shoebill- which we talked about way, way, way, way, way back when, I think that was episode six we talked about the shoe bill- When they lay their eggs, they have a backup chick just in case the first chick dies.

Christian: Huh.

Ellen: Yeah. This is kind of a common motif, huh, in a animal moms, that they...

Christian: You pick the worst animal moms.

Ellen: Kinda have a backup baby.

Christian: Wait. Are we still in ingenuity?

Ellen: Yes.

Christian: And you gave a...

Ellen: 10.

Christian: *suspiciously* Hmmm...

Ellen: Which I know- Okay. So the reason I... I actually think I gave the shoebill some ingenuity points for doing this.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: But the reason I took them off for the quokka is that the quokka actively murders her children.

Christian: No it doesn't!

Christian: Well, she won't hesitate to.

Christian: Just stabs and throws the corpse at the thing.

Ellen: Well, she yeets them onto the ground and leaves them to die, so she's a little bit meaner than the- this is more of the sort of thing where they will have two babies and then the one that's older and stronger they will prefer and then a lot of times, with the younger one, they just won't feed it. Like they won't even bother with it and they'll die.

Christian: No, I get it. It's like Pokemon. Catch two Pidgeys, get rid of the weaker one.

Ellen: Yeah, it's- they're IV farming.

Christian: Yep.

Ellen: They're trying to catch the one with better IVs. But so, the chick that hatches later than the other one usually dies pretty quickly and then is fed to the other chick. I mean, it seems to be working out for them nicely.

Christian: Not for the second chick! That's okay, I guess.

Ellen: Yeah. So. That's my 10 out of 10 for their ingenuity. I think they're just, their behavior is just fascinating. They're a really, really interesting animal. And that brings us to our final category for the bearded vulture: aesthetics. I also gave it a 10 out of 10 for aesthetics. This is such a beautiful bird. I- in my notes for this section, I have one word and one word only. One bullet. One word. Wow.

Christian: Such beauty.

Ellen: It's just, wow, this is really gorgeous bird. And especially when you get that fiery red in there. Gosh. And it's like they're intentionally making themselves prettier. It's so cool. So yeah, this is just a really beautiful bird. They have this really incredible face where they have this long, curved beak and their eyes are this bright red and it's surrounded by these black bands. You know I'm crazy about a good face mask. Any sort of animal with like a built-in bandit sort of look to it. Oh my gosh, I love it. And then they just have that really magnificent mane. It's very fluffy and their feathers are very thick and billowy and it's just very majestic. Everything about it is perfect and I love it. So 10 out of 10 for aesthetics. I love this bird.

Christian: Alright.

Ellen: If you've never seen one and you have no idea what I'm talking about, Google bearded vulture right now and you're welcome. So I'm going to wrap up the bearded vulture with some miscellaneous information. Their conservation status is near threatened with populations decreasing. A common cause of death for bearded vultures is collision with power lines or other manmade structures, but according to the IUCN, the biggest threat to the bearded vulture and a lot of other vulture species is indirect poisoning.

Christian: Ohh.

Ellen: Yeah. So a lot of times insecticides or other more serious poisons are placed in bait and set up to bait other predators like foxes or wolves that are more prone to picking off livestock. So this kind of makes farmers upset and they don't like it, they want to kill the foxes and the wolves, so they set out bait with poison and unfortunately then the vultures will come and eat it and they themselves will get poisoned and die. Even though they're not really the target, they still will suffer for it. Now this is often done illegally, so there are a lot of controls in place for like what kind of insecticides you can use. A lot of times people will just do it anyway just because they want to kind of protect their livestock. So right now, there's currently a campaign against this. This campaign is called the Balkan Anti-Poisoning Project, and they're putting in a lot of work to raise awareness and prevent the both intentional and unintentional killing of wildlife like the bearded vultures. If you're listening to this and you currently set out poison bait for any sort of wildlife, don't do that. Actually, people in our area sometimes will do this. They will set out poison traps for feral cats or, I don't know, raccoons or coyotes or something. I have definitely heard of people in Jacksonville setting out poison traps for different animals for whatever reason, but then that ends up then affecting cats or dogs or possums or other sort of animals that aren't necessarily hurting anybody. Stop doing that. Don't set out poison traps for anybody for any reason. Just don't do it. And that's all I've got. That's the end of that for me.

Christian: Well thank you, babe. It's a very good bird.

Ellen: You're welcome. Yeah, I was telling you earlier this week that I think the bearded vulture is my new favorite animal. It's just the best one. Number one, best animal.

Christian: Glam bird.

Ellen: Uh, now that we're done with our animals, we like to do this segment at the end where we read some responses that we've gotten from our audience. Our audience members are pretty great and we love you all and you are delightful and many of you are zoological and ecological professionals and have a lot of really interesting things to contribute. So we like to give you guys an opportunity to weigh in at the end here. So I have two responses I want to read. The Jungle Gym Queen on Twitter, who can be found at @junglegymqueen, pointed out in response to our manta ray segment in episode 18 that giant manta rays have actually been documented passing the mirror self-recognition test. This is a test that indicates self-awareness, and therefore implied to be high levels of cognitive function. So I kinda dug into this a little bit to see, you know, how this was done. So this test was performed in a study by Dr. Scilla Ari and Dr. Dominic D'Agostino. This was in 2016, and what they did was they exposed these two captive giant manta rays to a mirror and observed their responses. The manta rays responded to their image in the mirror, not with social displays, so they have certain behaviors that they will exhibit when they see another manta ray...

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: They didn't do that though, as you would expect them to behave towards another manta ray. But instead, they showed these frequent, unusual and repetitive movements in front of the mirror. So things like circling or doing something over and over again that they were doing in front of the mirror that they don't normally do. This suggests that they did understand the reflection to be not another manta ray, but themselves. Yeah. So what do you think, babe? Do you think that factors in, do you want to retroactively update their ingenuity score?

Christian: I don't remember what I gave it for ingenuity.

Ellen: I think you gave them a seven.

Christian: Let's bump it up by one, then.

Ellen: Okay. Plus one to ingenuity.

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: Great. So yeah, thank you. Jungle Gym Queen.

Christian: Yes, thank you.

Ellen: Who I believe also runs a Facebook page under the name, The Nagging Naturalist. So yeah, go check all that content out. It's very good.

Christian: Love alliteration.

Ellen: Yes, I know you do. And the other thing I wanted to include was that George Diaz on Twitter said, uh, I'm assuming this is in response to our giant panda segment, which we did in episode three, he says, "I'm surprised you didn't mention that there are only two pandas that are not owned by China, but in fact owned by Mexico. They reside in a zoo in Mexico City and their names are Xuan Xuan and Shin Shin. They're a gift from China back in 1975, second generation, first to be born in Mexico."

Christian: Interesting.

Ellen: Yeah, so I also did a little bit of digging into that as well. Back before the 80s, China would often give pandas to other countries as diplomatic gifts, tokens of affection from China to other countries. So actually the U.S. received some, Canada received some, a lot of different countries in the world received these gifts of pandas and Mexico got some too. And currently Mexico is the only country that still owns like, the descendants of those pandas that they received from China.

Christian: Oh, okay.

Ellen: Yeah, that's just some, some additional information.

Christian: That's interesting.

Ellen: That there are two pandas in the world that belong to Mexico.

Christian: Well cool. Hopefully they are able to keep the line going.

Ellen: Yeah. So thank you George for pointing that out to us.

Christian: Thank you.

Ellen: So yeah, that's what we've got this week. Thank you so much for joining us. This was a lot of fun and we're really, really grateful for everybody that has been listening and everybody who has been rating and reviewing, that means a lot to us. We get some really cool, we get some really nice reviews and that always makes us really happy. So thank you for doing that.

Christian: And thank you for your word of mouth to your friends, telling them about us.

Ellen: Yeah, that's really great. We're always really excited to have new people join us. It's really fun. So you can connect with us on Facebook, Twitter or Instagram. Just search the title of the show. That'll bring you to us. Please, please, please come hang out with us in our Facebook group cause it's poppin. The title of the Facebook group is "Just the Zoo of Us: Official Friend Squad!" And it is a lot of fun. We have had really fun things like we had a poll going on last night about whether you prefer the ranger or the druid when wanting to incorporate animals into your D&D party. So we've been- which that was also on Twitter too.

Christian: Yeah, I saw.

Ellen: Yeah, so we've just been having a lot of fun out there. Come hang out with us on Facebook or on Twitter or you know, wherever you're... Wherever you most enjoy participating in social media. If you have an animal species that you'd like to hear us review, you could submit those to me at my email address: ellen@justthezooofus.com, and last note, I would like to thank Louie Zong for the use of his song "Adventuring" off of his album Bee Sides.

Christian: Yes. Thank you so much.

Ellen: We love it. Thank you so much for letting us have that. It really sets a nice tone for our show and we really love it.

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: All right. That's all I got. You want to go get some pizza?

Christian: I would love to get some pizza.

Ellen: Let's go get some pizza.

Christian: Yesss.

Ellen: Bye.

Christian: Bye everyone!

19: Quokka & Peacock Mantis Shrimp

Ellen: Hey there, Weatherfriends.

Christian: Hi everyone.

Ellen: This is Ellen Weatherford.

Christian: And Christian Weatherford.

Ellen: And we are Just the Zoo of Us, your favorite animal review podcast where we take your favorite species of animals and we review them and rate them out of 10 in the categories of effectiveness, ingenuity and aesthetics.

Christian: We are experts in many things, but zoology is not one of them.

Ellen: That's true. We do a lot of research and we do our best to make sure that we're presenting you really good information from really trustworthy sources, and we always cite those sources so you know where our information is coming from. You know, we're not just making this stuff up. Well, we're making the numbers up. The numbers part is arbitrary. We made that stuff up.

Christian: I mean we didn't create the number system

Ellen: We did, actually. Numbers didn't exist before us. We invented the numerical scale.

Christian: We got lazy and decided to make some numbers just upside down version of other numbers, so there.

Ellen: Some people call them negatives.

Christian: I meant like, nine and six, but okay.

Ellen: That's the dumbest joke we've ever made on this whole show. We're 19 episodes in and that was the stupidest thing either one of us has ever said. So yeah, we cite our sources. That's all I was going to say about that.

Christian: Third bullet...

Ellen: So yeah, we do our best to make sure that we're giving you really good information. But by all means, if something seems amiss to you and you are a zoological expert, feel free to shoot us a message. Don't worry. We are very friendly. We do not bite and we will be sure to make it right.

Christian: But make sure you give some context that message, because if some rando just messages my personal Facebook says, "how dare you give a 9 when it should have been a 10?" And I don't know what you're talking about.

Ellen: And it's actually me from another account. Just mad that you didn't give the um, what was it that I thought you should have done a better one?

Christian: Literally everything.

Ellen: I'm always so mad at you for your numbers. So Christian, last week you went first.

Christian: You're right.

Ellen: So this week it's my turn and I'm really, really excited because we have some crowd pleasers this week.

Christian: What do you got for us this week?

Ellen: So, we decided this week to do two of our most highly requested animals. We kind of bumped them up due to popular demand, and mine that I'm talking about this week is the quokka!

Christian: Quokka?

Ellen: Quokka! This is spelled Q. U. O. K. K. A.

Christian: Alright.

Ellen: The scientific name is Setonix brachyurus.

Christian: I didn't think you can get much more difficult than quokka, but it did!

Ellen: So quokka, I think, is a really cute name because it reminds me of the noise that Pac-man makes.

Christian: Ah, very good.

Ellen: So the quokka was requested by Alyssa Años, Dena Tygart and Taylor Gordon-Wood. And Taylor, by the way, made our beautiful cover art.

Christian: It's very good.

Ellen: Yes, it's excellent. Oh-

Christian: Now available on merchandise.

Ellen: Yeah! Oh, now available on merch, which I haven't mentioned on the podcast yet. Oops. But it's out there. Anyway. Also, Alyssa Años, my cousin, requested this animal in the ideal request format. She sent an email to our email address and it literally was just the word quokka.

Christian: Was it in the subject or the body of the email?

Ellen: Both.

Christian: Ah, same word twice then.

Ellen: It's, it was just one word: quokka. And I was like, well, received.

Christian: To the point.

Ellen: Message received.

Christian: Efficient.

Ellen: Yes. . I'm all about efficiency. So we're here with the quokka. So the information that I'm getting on the quokka I have gathered from Nature Conservancy Australia, the Australian Museum and Rottnest Island Wildlife's fact file on the quokka.

Christian: All right.

Ellen: So you'll never guess where this animal is from.

Christian: Antarctica.

Ellen: So, I'm going to introduce you to my buddy, the quokka. At their adult size, they are 40 to 55 centimeters, or 15 to 22 inches long. Their tail adds another 25 to 30 centimeters, or 10 to 12 inches. So this is roughly the size of a house cat or maybe a large chicken.

Christian: So when you were saying 40 to 50, I don't know why, but I was thinking of, oh, she's about to say feet. I know she's about to say feet!

Ellen: Forty to fifty FEET. TALL.

Christian: Australia why?!

Ellen: Oh, you haven't heard about the 50 foot tall marsupial roaming the wilderness of Australia?

Christian: It's that weird forced perspective the camera does, just the opposite.

Ellen: So, anyway, you're going to find these little dudes in one very, very specific place called Rottnest Island. This is an island in southwestern Australia, near the city of Perth. Now, there are some other smaller populations in the mainland of Australia in sort of the southwestern forests, but by far the largest population is on Rottnest Island. There are an estimated 10,000 of them on this island.

Christian: Wow.

Ellen: Yeah, so actually what's interesting is that this island, Rottnest Island, was named after the population of quokkas living there. So the Dutch explorer- I'm going to do my best here Willem de Vlamingh?

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: Vlah-ming? Vlay-ming? Something like that. He was the one that named this island, and he described these quokkas as giant rats, which makes sense when you look at them, they look like they could be rodents, and they also have the long, hairless tails that rats have.

Christian: Aw man.

Ellen: Yeah, I know you're not a fan of it. But anyway, so he saw that and assumed that they were types of rats. So he named the island Rottenest, which translates to rat nest.

Christian: Makes sense.

Ellen: A nest of rats. Yeah. So they're actually with the island is named after, even though it's not a very cute name. And you would not think they were very cute based on that name. I mean it's got the word rot in it. Right? That doesn't sound great. That doesn't sound very appealing.

Christian: Yeah...

Ellen: But anyway, so the taxonomic family that the quokka belongs to is called Macropodidae. These are macropods. Macropods are the family of marsupials that includes kangaroos and wallabies.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: So there are marsupials outside of the macropod family. Those are going to be like possums.

Christian: So, is the quokka a marsupial itself?

Ellen: Yes. Yes, all macropods are marsupials.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: A lot of sources that I saw described the quokkas as a type of wallaby, and then that made me dig a little bit further into what counts as a wallaby. Because I guess I always thought a wallaby was like, a certain type of species, but actually the term wallaby doesn't have a very strict genetic definition. So the term wallaby really just refers to a small macropod that is not a kangaroo.

Christian: Oh, that's pretty general.

Ellen: Yeah. So quokkas are kind of considered part of that because they don't- it's just not a very strict term. But the quokka is the only species in their genus, Setonix. They don't really have any other species within that genus, but they are related to the wallabies.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: Yup. So that's just kind of your little introduction to the quokka. I'm going to get started with our rating system. We start with effectiveness, which for us here at Just the Zoo of Us (if this is your first time joining_ for us, effectiveness is physical adaptations that the animal has that make them do a good job at the things that they're trying to do. So these are things that are built into their body to make them do a good job. I gave the quokka an 8 out of 10 for effectiveness.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: The bulk of the points I gave them are for their very fast and efficient reproduction. They are very quick at it. Gestation period is only about a month, so the joey- oh, I should even say being a marsupial, their babies are called joeys. Just like Kangaroos.

Christian: Ah, okay okay.

Ellen: Yeah, they're their joeys. So the joey is born about a month after the mother mates. Now they are super teeny tiny when they're born and they live in their mother's pouch for six months. And then after six months they come out.

Christian: Yeah, because I mean at the earliest stages, they might as well just be a fetus that's just no longer on the inside, right?

Ellen: A jelly bean, really. It's a small bean. So now here's where it starts to get a little bit rough after this. So I'm just going to put a quick little content warning that the following is a little bit... Um, it's challenging content so be careful.

Christian: Suited for mature listeners.

Ellen: I don't... Um, yeah. So, the joey lives in its mother's pouch for six months, at which point it emerges. Now the mother keeps a backup- at least one, sometimes more- backup, undeveloped joeys in her womb. They're not developed fully yet, but little fetuses, she keeps them in her womb just in case the first one doesn't work out.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: So if things don't go so good with that baby, she's got some backup babies ready to go. In the oven. Now, this is especially useful for them because- I'm so sorry, but one of the quokka's escape tactics when chased by a predator...

Christian: Oh, no.

Ellen: Is to abandon the joey, take it out of the pouch and just kinda smoke bomb, kind of leave the baby there and use it as bait to distract the predator for long enough for the mother to get away.

Christian: Oh no...

Ellen: Yeah, it's not good.

Christian: I guess it's kind of that whole, "I don't need to outrun the predator, I just have to out run the rest of you."

Ellen: So this might seem counterproductive. Why has the mother fed its baby to a predator? So you have to not view this through the human lens of morality and don't make assumptions about ethics for quokkas. Think about it. It's very easy for the mother to make more babies. The baby can't make more mamas. It just mathematically, for their population, makes more sense.

Christian: I mean, sure, there are animals that eat their young, so...

Ellen: Yeah, they haven't necessarily eaten their young, but they've fed their young to a predator to kind of buy time for them to get away. So in the grand scheme of things, she is typically okay with sacrificing one of her babies.

Christian: Can I ask in this part of Australia, what is the most common predator they they have to contend with outside of humans?

Ellen: So on this island, there are feral populations of invasive species like cats and foxes.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: Yeah. So they, they have those to kind of compete with. I would imagine things like large birds of prey, uh, snakes, maybe? Reptiles?

Christian: I'm just trying to think of things that they would need to outrun. Um, I guess that wouldn't be... Reptiles, per se.

Ellen: I don't know off the top of my head, but...

Christian: No worries. I was just curious.

Ellen: Yeah. But so yeah, that's why one of the biggest things that people say is to please do not scare the quokkas because they will smoke bomb their babies.

Christian: Oh no.

Ellen: Yeah, it's not great. They'll just kind of spike them right on the ground and peace out.

Christian: Do they come back and just be like... did it work out?

Ellen: No, they do not.

Christian: Oh, they just assumed.

Ellen: Yeah, so um, bad moms, but... I mean, you gotta give them some logic points for that, right?

Christian: Sure....?

Ellen: So, yeah, I mean they will leave their babies behind and everything, but it's super easy for them to make more. So I gave them some effectiveness points for that.

Christian: I guess I would've put that in the second category, personally. But...

Ellen: You know, I couldn't bring myself to. I couldn't bring myself to award them ingenuity points for infanticide. I just couldn't let myself do that.

Christian: I mean...

Ellen: Moving on. Away from this.

Christian: Next!

Ellen: Leaving this whole topic in the dust. So, quokkas living in some pretty dry areas of the world, they are able to store fat deposits in their tails. So this allows them to survive for up to a month at a time without water or food. This is really important because during the dry summers, water gets really scarce on their island and they get a lot of it from eating vegetation and succulents that grow on the island. Now, something to keep in mind is that in Australia, their seasons are reversed from ours.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: So their summer occurs from December to February. Whereas for us in the United States, our summer is typically from May to August. Well, we live in Florida, so ours is from March to the next March. Ours is forever. It's just summer and that's it. Unfortunately, a lot of quokkas actually end up not surviving the summer, but the ones that do are able to very efficiently reproduce to maintain their population numbers.

Christian: I guess they have to, huh?

Ellen: Yeah. So it's kind of a harsh environment that they live in, but they've kind of adapted to take advantage of it. Yeah. So moving on to ingenuity, these are behavioral adaptations that the animal has made that just kind of make it a little bit clever at solving the problems that it faces on a daily basis. So, I gave the quokka 7 out of 10 for ingenuity. Quokkas are mostly nocturnal. During the day, they like to hide in really dense bushes and kind of underbrush, and inside that thick vegetation, they actually make their own hidden trails. So they have little paths and trails that they've made for themselves that they use for quick escapes or efficient paths to food sources. Yeah. So they have a little tunnel system, almost. It's not underground or anything. It's usually just like, under like thickets and stuff. But they have little tunnels that they make for themselves. They typically live together in groups. In the mainland, these groups are pretty small and they're mostly just little family units. But on the Rottnest Island, the groups can be really large. There's groups of like up to 150 of these things.

Christian: Wow.

Ellen: Running around together as like a big fam. So, during the summer when food and water are low, quokkas have been observed expanding their diet to become more omnivorous. So they're normally just herbivores. They just eat plants, succulents, stuff like that. But sometimes if it's really, really dry and they don't have a lot of food opportunities, they'll start to eat small animals like snails and lizards.

Christian: Oh wow.

Ellen: Even though they're not really meant to do that, they will do it sometimes. So, you know, a little bit of an opportunist there. Quokkas are very trusting of humans, and large numbers of them can be found in the more developed area of the island. They- it's called the Settlement. So this island is kind of divided up into these different like biomes, and you can find a lot of quokkas in the more urban area of the island because food and water are more likely to be found there. So quokkas like to hang out there. So they kind of, you know, they've kind of figured out where they're going to get a better selection of nutrition and they like to hang out around there. There is part of this island that are these really like dry scrub lands, and occasionally those areas will have these brush fires where there'll be like a big fire, a bunch of it will burn down, and then after that there will be these periods of new growth. So quokkas will kind of prefer those areas during the post-fire growth period. So you'll see, whenever there's like a big fire in that area quokkas will kind of move in afterwards and then enjoy that more rich nutrition. And then once things kind of even out, they'll move on and go to find more like swampy areas that they like to hang out in.

Christian: Oh cool.

Ellen: Yeah. So they're, they're kind of, um... I gave them some ingenuity points for being clever about like relocating themselves to give themselves like better advantages. I dunno. I thought that was pretty cool.

Christian: Yeah, for sure. And then I bet the plants that grow after the fires are also pretty tender since they're new and budding and...

Ellen: Some good dank leaves out there.

Christian: And then they're like, oh, it's all gone. Time to go to the wet place.

Ellen: Yeah. So I dunno. I mean 7 out of 10, they're pretty good.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: Kinda... Kinda clever little critters. Now, aesthetics. This is what you guys want to hear about for the quokka. 9 out of 10. So quokkas are famous for their naturally photogenic smile. They have- they're not expressing anything. That's just the way their face is.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: They have a resting happy face. It's just, it's so cute. Their little mouth is like turned up in this really cute little smile, they have really big round eyes, they have round, fluffy ears and these really big, fluffy, chubby cheeks, and it just makes them really cute. On top of that, they're also pretty friendly and they're not really very afraid of humans. So their adorable appearance and their friendly demeanor has made them one of the most popular tourist attractions on Rottnest Island.

Christian: Okay!

Ellen: They're kind of the island's claim to fame. This has inspired the social media trend of quokkas selfies that you've probably seen.

Christian: Hmm.

Ellen: This is like, the bulk of the reason people have asked us to talk about them is because of these quokka selfie threads. So some particularly noteworthy examples are from Chris Hemsworth and Margot Robbie, two Australian celebrities that have taken quokka selfies and put them up on their social media. Chris Hemsworth being Thor.

Christian: Yeah, I guess I didn't realize he was Australian.

Ellen: And then Margot Robbie being Harley Quinn from the Suicide Squad movie?

Christian: I didn't see it.

Ellen: Me neither. Anyway, so yeah, so these celebrity quokkas selfies and then just kind of the ensuing like... Everyone who goes to this island posts their quokka selfies have been really great for the visibility of the quokka and of Rottnest Island in general. It's like nobody knew about them before, and then all of a sudden these selfies got really, really popular. And then, you know, went like viral on social media and now everybody knows about them. So they've been really, really good for, you know, generating a lot of tourism and a lot of revenue for the island.

Ellen: Now it is super important to follow the directions of local authorities when it comes to interacting with not just this wildlife but any wildlife in general that you come across. So people trying to get selfies with quokkas will unfortunately sometimes try to tempt them with offerings of food. Uh, don't do that. That can be very unhealthy for the quokka, especially if it is junk food. It can be super bad for them. Do not do that. So although it might be really, really tempting, the penalty for touching or feeding a quokka is $150.

Christian: Wow... Is that US dollars?

Ellen: It's Australian dollars.

Christian: Oh, okay.

Ellen: Don't just go running around petting these little dudes cause there's a $150 fine for it.

Christian: Yeah. So, I'm guessing when they get these selfies, it's a no-touch selfie?

Ellen: Do not touch.

Christian: Gotcha.

Ellen: Yeah. There's actually a fair amount of controversy around quokka selfies. So particularly Instagram issues a warning that displays when you search for the hashtag "#quokkaselfie." I tested this, like I saw an article about it on the Internet and then I tested it on my own Instagram to be sure, and it really does happen. If you go to Instagram and you search the hashtag "#quokkaselfie", a warning screen comes up and it says: "You are searching for a hashtag that may be associated with posts that encourage harmful behavior to animals or the environment."

Christian: Wow!

Ellen: Yeah. It also gives a link to Instagram's wildlife exploitation guidelines, which I will say this, they have some really good, really valid points about illegal trade and have really good warnings about things like potentially sketchy practices, especially like paid photo opportunities with super endangered animals. Always, always, always be super wary of that stuff, but actually Rottnest Island Authority has publicly spoken against this notice. They object to it. They object to this notice being displayed for the #quokkaselfie hashtag. They said, and this is a quote from the spokesman for the Rottnest Island Authority, "It does not serve to educate or inform the public about our conservation efforts, or direct people to how they might develop a better understanding of this native species." So there's some beef there. Yeah. Instagram and the Rottnest Island Authority have some... Feud.

Christian: Well I guess, you know, it's a common problem with other animals, especially animals that are typically found to be cute but not so friendly and also more dangerous.

Ellen: Yeah. So you know, quokkas can be very easily startled. You could spook them very easily and make them drop their baby. But like... Yes, it is true that like it's very bad for people to try to, for example, feed junk food to quokkas to get them to pose for a selfie, like I get what Instagram is going for. I think that it is a good thing for them to be conscientious of how their platform is being used, especially when it comes to, you know, wildlife exploitation. I think this is one of those cases where they might want to tweak the wording of the notice because it can kind of raise some hairs to say like, "oh, this might be animal abuse" when people are just like taking pictures of wildlife without really disturbing them in any way.

Christian: I'd be interested to hear the other side of the story too though. Cause I imagine that is a common reaction to that even when maybe not so black and white.

Ellen: Yeah, I think it's a very interesting discussion because, I don't know, I kind of agree with both sides. It's, it's kinda tough. It's a tough one. But I thought it was really interesting to see that sort of back and forth.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: So yeah, that's my 9 out of 10 for aesthetics. They are so cute that it has caused a sort of an international feud.

Christian: Controversially cute.

Ellen: They are controversially cute. Yes. So, adorable little friends. So I will wrap up by giving you some final miscellaneous information about the quokka. Their conservation status is listed as vulnerable. So they are threatened, like I said earlier, by predation by feral populations of invasive predators, like cats and foxes. These are European, you know, non-native species that have been brought in and they're kind of destroying everything as they tend to do when they are in places they don't belong. But they're also facing a lot of habitat loss due to, you know, forests in their areas being cleared out for things like agriculture, housing or logging. It seems like this is more of a problem in the mainland. But in Rottnest Island, all of the wildlife on that island is federally protected.

Christian: Very cool.

Ellen: Yeah. But they are still vulnerable. So, you know there are still things that you can do to help them out. And I really recommend checking out the Rottnest Island Authority's website cause they have so much good information on there. My last thing that I wanted to say about them, I thought this was really cool. I found this article from Scitech's science media website Particle and this article was titled "Quokka Cure Not Quackery"...

Christian: Oh my.

Ellen: By Kirsten Flint in August of 2017, and I'm not going to pull any direct quotes or anything, but just to summarize like what I read: there were quokkas that were kept in labs in like the fifties and sixties, and these quokkas started to experience muscular dystrophy and it was resulting from a vitamin E deficiency. So it had been thought, up until that point that muscle fibers were completely just not capable of regenerating. Like once you're paralyzed, you're paralyzed forever. But, after the quokkas were documented completely recovering from paralysis once their vitamin deficiencies were corrected, this sparked this huge like, rush of research into possible treatments for muscular dystrophy in humans. So there's this big spike in research, you know, once people were like, "oh my gosh, it turns out muscle fibers actually can heal," then that just kind of like changed the game for muscular dystrophy research.

Christian: Well I think that would have also been the middle of the polio epidemic as well.

Ellen: I think so.

Christian: Um, so that, that makes sense that there was a big interest in that.

Ellen: Yeah. I'm sorry, I'm not a huge history buff or anything like that. I just thought it was really interesting that like, this pretty relatively unknown little like... Funky little marsupial had a really, really big impact in like medical research history. I thought that was pretty cool.

Christian: Yeah, for sure.

Ellen: So they've kind of impacted human history in their own adorable little way. So yeah, that is the quokka.

Christian: Well, thank you honey.

Ellen: You're welcome. Before we move on, I want to thank our patrons on Patreon! These- there are some people out there who are throwing us a couple bucks a month to help us grow and get bigger and better and get cooler. They were able to help us launch our website, which was really neat. Patrons get access to some really cool extra stuff like a feed of the show without ads, a patron-only discord server, and I just added, actually, I'm going to be sending out monthly photography prints to our patrons at various levels. So, you know, go, go check that out and consider pledging a couple dollars to support us and help us get bigger and better. For this week's episode. I want to thank our patrons, Brianna Feinberg and Krystina Sanders. So thank you guys.

Christian: Thank you. And those prints are very pretty. I can personally attest to them.

Ellen: You're biased.

Christian: Maybe. It doesn't mean I'm wrong though.

Ellen: I should mention that they're prints of photos that I took, they're not just like prints I like... Got off Google or something.

Christian: Here you go.

Ellen: Hope these aren't copyrighted!

Christian: Here's some stock images commonly used in memes!

Ellen: What if I sent them out and like, they all had like Getty images watermarked on them.

Christian: Just straight up memes, like, "guess I'll die."

Ellen: I'm going to actually start printing out memes on printer paper and sending them in the mail to our patrons, and signing them.

Christian: You can use that, um, that terrible quality paper I bought like five years ago. We still have,

Ellen: Yeah, I'll be sure to do that. So patrons, you're really getting your money's worth out of that. Anyway... Christian, it's your turn. You have another crowd-pleaser for us, don't you?

Christian: Yes, I do. So for this week I've got another animal that had lots of requests and that is the peacock mantis shrimp. So I chose the peacock mantis shrimp as a specific species, but a lot of people just know it as the mantis shrimp and it was suggested as such by Kyle Rauch, Michael Solon, Nicholas Kight, and Susanna Lewis at the Thornvale podcast, on Twitter as @KeeperSusannah.

Ellen: Thank you all.

Christian: Yes, thank you. So as I said, the peacock mantis shrimp is the specific species that I'm going with. Its scientific name is Odontodactylus scyllarus.

Ellen: Oh, I thought you were done after the first one. There was more.

Christian: I wish I was. It's a mouthful. My sources are coming from oceana.org, the National Aquarium website aqua.org, which is in Baltimore, Maryland, by the way.

Ellen: Oh wow.

Christian: Yup. And animaldiversity.org. Now, I know what you're thinking.

Ellen: Do you?

Christian: But Christian, The Oatmeal has talked about the mantis shrimp many a time.

Ellen: Oh, see, I was thinking about the RadioLab episode.

Christian: Oh, that too. It's a popular animal.

Ellen: I feel like the Radiolab episode came first.

Christian: Maybe.

Ellen: I think it was. I think that was what like sparked public interest in the Mantis shrimp.

Christian: For me, it's more of the visual cue of the Oatmeal stuff.

Ellen: Oh, yeah. Sure.

Christian: But yeah, a very interesting animal. So this particular species, its adult size is between 2 and 7 inches, or approximately 5 and 18 centimeters long.

Ellen: It's like the talon of a chicken.

Christian: It's bigger than that.

Ellen: The toe of a chicken?

Christian: It's like a small lobster.

Ellen: I thought you said two inches.

Christian: Two to seven inches.

Ellen: Two inches is like the toe of a chicken.

Christian: ...No way. I mean, yeah, at its smallest. I'm not- I'm going to start talking about chickens now. And these little dudes can be found in the warm waters of the Indian and Pacific oceans. They belong to the taxonomic family... Uh, another big word.

Ellen: Okay, let's go.

Christian: Odontodactylidae.

Ellen: Oh- hold on. Odontodactylidae.

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: What! That's every consonant in the entire English language.

Christian: It's so many. Uh, the other things in that family are the other mantis shrimp, of which there are approximately 400 different species of.

Ellen: Y'all gotta be more specific with your species requests PLEASE.

Christian: So I chose the peacock one because it's pretty, and that's that.

Ellen: Excellent. That's also how I make choices of things.

Christian: Effectiveness: So I'm going to give it a full 10 out of 10 nice. My first and biggest point is they have the hands that no one wants to catch. The hands with a swiftness! But they aren't really hands. So they have these little hard clubs that are also called raptorial appendages.

Ellen: I'm sorry. Raptorial?

Christian: Yes. I guess the adjective form of raptor.

Ellen: I didn't know that raptor had an adjective form.

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: I... That's incredible. That's a very powerful word.

Christian: Yes. So they have these little club-like appendages. Think of them as being their first set of legs, are these little appendages.

Ellen: They're boxing gloves?

Christian: Kind of look like that. So they're calcified claws basically, and they use them to deal massive amounts of bludgeoning damage, in D&D terms.

Ellen: Like 2d8 bludgeoning damage.

Christian: 2d12 is more like. But and they're strong. So what they're meant to do is to break through the shells of things like clams, oysters, other crabs and lobsters, that kind of thing.

Ellen: Wow.

Christian: Yup. The larger specimens have actually been known to damage the glass and aquariums with this, with these strikes.

Ellen: Incredible.

Christian: They're very, very strong.

Ellen: This is probably why I have not seen one in an aquarium.

Christian: Supposedly some do, just like the National Aquarium actually, which is why I'm pulling information from them. So if we ever find ourselves in that part of the country, maybe we can check it out. But their strike travels around 20 meters per second. That's fast. Very fast.

Ellen: Do you happen to have an imperial conversion for that?

Christian: I don't. I won't....

Ellen: Please?

Christian: And I shon't. I Dunno. Like 60 feet per second?

Ellen: What did you say the number was?

Christian: 20 meters per second.

Ellen: *googling* 20 meters per second...

Christian: But that's like what? A hundred feet per...

Ellen: 45 miles per hour.

Christian: You missed my joke.

Ellen: Was it good?

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: What was it?

Christian: I said, so that's what a hundred feet per football game?

Ellen: Okay, well it's 45 miles per hour.

Christian: Is that right?

Ellen: 20 meters per second. 20 meters per second equals 45 miles per hour. Google says it right here!

Christian: Okay, that makes a little sense I suppose because a lot of sources will say, oh, this is as fast as a 22 caliber bullet, which is not right. It is the same amount of force as a 22 caliber bullet.

Ellen: Oh, okay.

Christian: But the speed of a bullet is more than 10 times faster than that. Oh, okay. So I think that just might be a little confusion here and there.

Ellen: Either way, you don't want get hit by one.

Christian: Yes. And now, part of the reason that all that force is in addition to the initial strike, that strike is also creating what's called a cavitation bubble of air.

Ellen: Cavitation?

Christian: Yes. So that strike is transferring so much kinetic energy that it causes a bubble in the water. And as that bubble implodes on itself, or collapses on itself, it creates heat, light, and sound.

Ellen: What?

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: So it's also doing radiant damage.

Christian: Aw, these things are like paladins. But yes, tough little dudes.

Ellen: This is like when you uh, are playing a Skyrim save and you max out your melee skill

Christian: Gloves of the pugilist or however that's pronounced. And then, the way they hold their claws, they're kind of folded out in front of them. It's very much like the mantis insect, like the praying mantis.

Ellen: That's probably where they got their name.

Christian: Yep. So that's where that part of the name comes from. And then, the peacock part of this one is because of how pretty it is. I'll get to that shortly.

Ellen: We have a whole section for that.

Christian: Yes. The next effective thing that I'm giving them points for, their vision. So this is another thing that has been talked about a lot.

Ellen: Let's hear it again, Christians.

Christian: Yes. So they have incredible vision. They can see colors in wavelength that we cannot, examples being ultraviolet and polarized light. So part of the reason for this is because their compound eyes have 16 types of color receptive cones, whereas most humans only have three. I say most because some have four, and there's a whole other RadioLab podcast about that ability.

Ellen: Yeah, check out the radio lab episode colors for more information on...

Christian: Those might be in the same episode.

Ellen: Yeah, it's the one episode where they talk about mantis shrimps, and cause they talk about other animals with different numbers of receptors in their eyes. So yeah, if you haven't heard it yet, check out the RadioLab episode tellers for a deep dive into like photoreceptive- an explanation on photo receptive cells in your eyes and stuff. It's really cool.

Christian: So what this basically translates to is the more different kinds of these you have, and if they're sensitive to different frequencies of light, it gives you a better ability to distinguish between different colors. And also in the mantis shrimp case, they can see beyond the, what we know as the visual spectrum. So, you know, ultraviolet, being part of that, we cannot see older violet light directly. And it turns out they look even cooler when you see them the way another mantis shrimp would.

Ellen: Oh really?

Christian: Yeah. So just with our eyesight, their colors are very vivid and interesting. But with the eyes of another mantis shrimp, it's even better.

Ellen: What would elf eyes see?

Christian: They're taking the crustaceans to Isengard!

Ellen: No.

Christian: No? Okay.

Ellen: I regret setting you up for that.

Christian: Well, then I just spiked it into the ground.

Ellen: Not unlike a quokka spiking its baby.

Christian: Womp. So that was a 10 out of 10 for effectiveness.

Ellen: Perfect score, nicely done. Slam dunk.

Christian: Yep. Ingenuity: I'm giving them I guess a modest 7 out of 10 for ingenuity.

Ellen: Really?

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: That's a lot for a shrimp.

Christian: Well, so they, they dig these interesting tunnels that are kind of U-shaped. They spend most of their time there, they hang out when they're not actively doing anything else it seems. They'll breed there, they'll, they'll raise their young there...

Ellen: I also hang out in a cave when I'm not doing anything else.

Christian: And I just thought it was interesting that they know that they have the ability to break open the shells of other creatures. Like, "I have these powerful hands" just start breaking open to other animals to get at their yummy, gooey parts.

Ellen: I wonder how much of that is trial and error. I wonder if they ever like run up on like, a shark or something and be like, "yeah, surely I can take this."

Christian: I mean, the way I think of it, the first one was probably like... Two different crustaceans. One was like, "hey Mike, shake my hand!" "Okay, here you go- Oh God!"

Ellen: Yeah. That's probably how that went down.

Christian: "Your hand is gone!"

Ellen: Or maybe he was just trying to like, greet his, uh, like hermit crab buddy...

Christian: By knocking on the door, that is his shell.

Ellen: Yeah. And he went to knock on the door of his house and then just...

Christian: No more door. Uh, that's all I have for ingenuity.

Ellen: This poor mantis shrimp can't make any friends!

Christian: He's too powerful and too beautiful.

Ellen: Too strong. It's the Dragon Ball Z curse

Christian: Speaking of beauty, aesthetics. 10 out of 10. They're very pretty and they have stunning colors. They're very, it's just almost iridescent and is just... You really have to see it. And in particular it's the males that have the coloration that's most interesting. And it has lots of greens and blues and reds.

Ellen: Ain't that always the way it goes?

Christian: Yeah. I mean, the females are mostly red. Still pretty though.

Ellen: How come the dudes are always the fabulous ones?

Christian: It's just like peacock. Right? And then also the eyes themselves, they look very interesting. I'm not going to try to describe them through voice, but I do highly recommend to check them out to see what the eyes themselves look like.

Ellen: Is it the color or the shape of them or?

Christian: The anatomy itself. Cause they're compound eyes, not unlike many insects.

Ellen: Those always look really cool, cause they always have interesting geometric patterns to them.

Christian: Yeah, and they have distinct parts. So they have horizontal bands that go through the middle. It kind of looks like they have several pupils that are kind of moving around too.

Ellen: Hmmm. Interesting.

Christian: Yeah. A little miscellaneous info about our friends: their conservation status is insufficient data.

Ellen: Oh!

Christian: Yeah. We don't know. I mean it's thought that they could be vulnerable to destruction of coral reef habitats, cause that's where they're primarily found. Other than that, no real data there.

Ellen: Okay. Well, hope for the best.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: Fingers crossed for the mantis shrimp. Hope they're doing good.

Christian: Yeah. And they are pretty valued by aquarium collectors. Some, I should say. So like I said, they're very beautiful to look at but the negatives are, you know, one: when they're bigger they could damage the tank.

Ellen: Yeah. You need a bulletproof tank, huh.

Christian: But also they have a tendency to eat anything else that's in the tank. So...

Ellen: Who's gonna step to them?

Christian: Just stay out of reach, I guess.

Ellen: Nobody can keep them in check. Like you can't have fish cop coming in there, like trying to keep everyone in line!

Christian: Even another mantis shrimp. They're pretty territorial. They try to crack each other's tails open, and it turns out that that part of their shell is the thickest part because of that.

Ellen: For that exact reason. They've evolved like, bulletproof Kevlar tails.

Christian: An evolutionary arms race.

Ellen: Well, I gotta say they're winning.

Christian: And they're actually kind of known that if you have tanks that have living coral in it, they are known to like basically think, "I want to dig a tunnel through this," punch, punch, punch, punch, punch. Now this coral has a big hole in it.

Ellen: Jerks! That's rude! Leave the coral alone

Christian: Yeah. And then I'm going to wrap up with what they do with their eggs. I think it's nice. So when the eggs are laid, the female kind of holds them on her "person," for the lack of a better term. Just kind of holding them in and they're also like adhered to their body.

Ellen: Oh, interesting. So she's keeping them close.

Christian: Yeah. So she holds onto them and cleans them until they're hatched.

Ellen: That's kinda cute! She cleans her little eggs.

Christian: She doesn't eat during this period.

Ellen: Oh...

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: She's a much better mother than the quokka. The quokka mom was like, "BYE!"

Christian: Okay, but... If it wanted to, it could use them like bullets. Cause there's just so many.

Ellen: WHAT. No, it couldn't. You made that up.

Christian: That's true. They don't really have any digits to grab that kind of thing with. But it'd be funny.

Ellen: That's a funny visual. Now you mentioned that they're supremely powerful.

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: They have incredible detection capabilities.

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: And they're supremely stylish. Is this an anime villain?

Christian: Uh, if you're a mollusk.

Ellen: Mantis shrimp confirmed anime antagonist. You know this to be true.

Christian: Jojo!

Ellen: Jotaro!!

Christian: That's the peacock mantis shrimp.

Ellen: Thank you, my love. That was delightful.

Christian: It was enjoyable for me as well.

Ellen: I'm glad. That was really good. I had heard it talked about but not by you.

Christian: I might have mentioned it once or twice in passing.

Ellen: Alright, well those are our animals segments. I want to wrap up the show with our relatively new audience response segment. Only had one that I wanted to share this week. So last week we talked about the giant manta ray, and in response to that segment, our friend Jacob Jones shared his experience with giant manta rays in the wild. So our friend Jacob works in commercial fishing, he works on a shrimp boat and he had this to say about giant manta rays: he says, "I've caught two giant mantas in the last seven years. With shrimping, we use large nets that go to the ocean floor, and inside of the nets there is a large grid called a turtle extraction device, or a T.E.D., That lets the larger things escape, like most sport fish, sharks, dolphins, turtles, etc. But the giant mantas are too heckin big and can't make it to this part of the net, because they taper down from a 68 foot circumference, or 34 on the first boat I worked on, down to like a four foot circumference as they go to the bags where the catch is held. So when we pick up and pull the bags in, we will see them flapping irately in the nets until they slide out." So I was concerned and I asked if the manta rays are able to get out safely once the net is pulled up, and Jacob said, "Yeah, they slide right out. They don't seem to have any issues as they flap on the surface for a moment as if cussing at us, and then they swim off. I have never once seen one get wounded from being in the net. Just annoyed that we interrupted their swim."

Christian: Angery sea blanket! But yeah, I really appreciate that. Thank you Jacob.

Ellen: Yeah, I thought that was really cool because I've definitely never seen a manta ray in the wild, but it must be really interesting to get a chance to see so many really cool ocean species out in their native habitat. Jacob also mentioned that they had caught a basket star and I thought that was really cool.

Christian: Yeah. So I had actually, I saw this on Facebook and I did a little research on the T.E.D. Device. So they are purposely meant for sea turtles, right? Because you know, the difference between the manta rays and the sea turtle is that the sea turtle eventually needs to get air from the surface. So the manta is probably okay because it's, even if it doesn't get all the way through, it's still having water pass over its gills, it's going to be okay, whereas a sea turtle, it will eventually drown. Right?

Ellen: Sure.

Christian: And then, I've read that even sometimes, not all of these devices work because there are turtles that get too big for that.

Ellen: Oh no.

Christian: Like the uh, the loggerhead turtle.

Ellen: Oh, like, yeah- Oh, those are big.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: Yeah, so I thought that was really neat, to some firsthand experience of an encounter with giant manta rays and the visual of them being quite perturbed by being caught in a net, I thought was kind of funny.

Christian: I've heard them described by people who have seen them out in the ocean is that they look like a large quilt just kind of floating through the water.

Ellen: That makes sense. I mean they do have that like, square shape. I thought that was pretty cool. So thank you for sharing your experience, Jacob.

Christian: Yeah, thanks!

Ellen: All right, so that's our show. We're all done. We're going to wrap up with a few final notes. I want to thank everybody who has been listening and everybody who's been recommending us to your friends, you guys are the best and I love you and thank you, especially, to people who have been leaving reviews on your podcatchers. That means a lot to us and it helps us out a lot. Hopefully we've earned a good review from you, so if you feel so inclined, please drop us a drop a little five star rating on there.

Christian: Yeah. Plus it makes us feel good!

Ellen: It makes me really happy. You know I thrive on validation and I live for it. So, you know...

Christian: Can I review it?

Ellen: Yeah, let's hear it. Let's hear your review of the show that we're doing right now.

Christian: ...Oh man.

Ellen: The pressure's on.

Christian: Ellen is awesome. The other person, [some dumb inaudible noise because Christian's a mean jerk]... I don't know. I don't know how to translate that to text, but...

Ellen: Well, I guess I'm going to have to do it when I'm doing the transcript, won't I?

Christian: Dear Future Ellen, I'm so sorry.

Ellen: You're not sorry, because you keep saying you are, and you keep doing it anyway. The best apology is changed behavior, Christian Weatherford. Anyway, you can connect with us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram by searching the title of the show. You can also find our official website at www.justthezooofus.com, if you have an animal species you want to hear us review, you can submit that to us either on social media or just via email at Ellen@justthezooofus.com.

Christian: Yes.

Christian: Transcripts of this episode and others will be going live on our website as soon as I can get through them. They take a very long time, please be patient with me. And as our final note, I want to thank Louie Zong for the use of his song "Adventuring" off of the album Bee Sides.

Christian: It's good stuff.

Christian: We love it.

Christian: Merch store.

Ellen: Merch store? Oh! Yeah, gosh, yeah. I put some designs up that you can buy and put on things that you wear.

Christian: And drink from, right?

Ellen: And drink from! Yes, there's like coffee mugs on there. I think there's also a reusable cotton tote.

Christian: Everyday items you interact with, with our brand on it!

Ellen: You can add them to your inventory and use them for functions. They're functional, and they have our little cover out on them. I'm also working on some other little designs that I think would make cute merch, so... I'm working on it. So yeah, that's our show.

Christian: Thanks everyone!

Ellen: Thanks. We love you.

Christian: Especially me.

Ellen: Bye.

Christian: Bye!

18: Giant Manta Ray & Red Panda

Ellen: Hey there, Weatherfriends!

Christian: Aaaahhh!

Ellen: Do you like it?

Christian: I love it.

Ellen: I got it from Ashley Tucker. Thanks Ashley. This is Ellen Weatherford.

Christian: And Christian Weatherford.

Ellen: And we are here with Just the Zoo of Us, the animal review podcast where we take your favorite species of animals and we rate them out of 10 in the categories of effectiveness, ingenuity and aesthetics.

Christian: We are not zoological experts. However, we do a lot of research and we try our best, but by all means, let us know if we get it wrong. Lthat's a rock. That's not an animal. [inaudible]

Ellen: Dang. We did a whole entire segment on Stonehenge. Darn, thought it was the best animal.

Christian: The first clue should have been the straight 1s we gave across the board.

Ellen: I know, it just... Pitiful. No ingenuity. I wanted to give a quick update before we launch into things because we actually haven't recorded an episode since we launched all these cool new features that we have. We launched a brand new website!

Christian: It's the best website.

Ellen: It's the best website ever. It's called justthezooofus.com and we launched it thanks to support from our patrons at Patreon. We also launched a Patreon! Also that.

Christian: It's been quite the week.

Ellen: It has. Yeah, it feels like it was 30,000 years ago, but we're just now recording, so I'm going to drop some more information about that in the middle of the show because I know you guys are itching to get to these animal reviews, but for right now you can find us at justthezooofus.com for links to our listening platforms, transcripts, contacts, and you know, whatever. Now Christian and I have just come back from a really big trip.

Christian: Yes! We just went to Atlanta, Georgia.

Ellen: A lot of people assumed that we were in Atlanta for Dragon Con, but we weren't. We just happened to be in Atlanta during Dragon Con. We were there for some live shows that we were attending and also while we were there, we made sure to fill our time with, first of all, the Georgia Aquarium, which I insist on hitting up every single time we're in Atlanta. Without fail, it has become an annual tradition for the Weatherford family to head over to the Georgia Aquarium and it's worth it every single time.

Christian: It is. I believe this makes the third time. Yes?

Ellen: Yup. This is our third consecutive, uh, annual Georgia Aquarium visit and it never disappoints. And we also, this time, this was our first time getting to go to Zoo Atlanta.

Christian: Yeah! Which strangely enough did not know existed prior to a month ago or so.

Ellen: Well, Christian didn't.

Christian: I didn't. I'm not very attentive.

Ellen: But so we got to go to Zoo Atlanta and it was really great. It was an extremely impressive zoo. We saw so many cool things. We saw pandas, which I have never seen before in my life.

Christian: Likewise.

Ellen: Never seen pandas, so I was really excited about that. Very, very few pandas in zoos in the United States, which we delve into in episode 3 about the giant panda. So we had actually already talked about pandas, so it felt, it felt really cool to see them in the zoo already having that background knowledge and already being kind of familiar with the panda after having talked about them on the show.

Christian: Yeah. You kind of give a face to the voice, I guess.

Ellen: Yeah, like we were already pretty familiar with them and it was just really exciting to see them in person. They were so cute.

Christian: Yeah, the little ears.

Ellen: So cute. That kind of whole weekend experience of going to the Georgia Aquarium and the Atlanta Zoo inspired us to do two animals species this week that we really connected with while we were there.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: Last week I went first with the veiled chameleon, so Christian, it's your turn. You're up.

Christian: All right, here we go.

Ellen: Okay, let's hear it.

Christian: So I know our opening is we rate your favorite animals. However, this animal was not submitted to us. I was simply inspired by its glory at the Georgia Aquarium. It's mine, it's mine.

Ellen: It's somebody's favorite animal and that somebody is you, Christian Weatherford.

Christian: Ooh! All right. So this one is the giant manta ray.

Ellen: Love it.

Christian: The scientific name is Manta birostris, hoping I pronounced that right.

Ellen: Yeah. Cause I think that birostris means it has those two lobes on the rostral like, area.

Christian: Yes!

Ellen: This is similar to the cownose ray.

Christian: Yes, yes. A lot of the same anatomy there. Those are actually called...

Ellen: Are these the little flippy flaps in the front of the face?

Christian: Yes. They're called cephalic lobes.

Ellen: Cephalic.... lobes.

Christian: Also could be called cephalic fins.

Ellen: Okay. Oh fins! Oh, that's kind of cute. They have a little fins on their face.

Christian: Yep.

Ellen: Face fins.

Christian: Before I get into that, real quick, I just wanted to mention my sources. I have quite a few for this one. So of course the main one being the Georgia Aquarium itself, along with its website, georgiaaquarium.org.

Ellen: Represent.

Christian: Yes, along with mantamatcher.org.

Ellen: What? Hold on.

Christian: I'll get back to that.

Ellen: That's a dating website.

Christian: It is not! Animal Planet's "The Aquarium," a show about the Georgia Aquarium that has aired recently. And finally the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, or NOAA, Fisheries website.

Ellen: You know I love them.

Christian: Fisheries.noaa.gov, which is part of the US Department of Commerce, turns out. So, uh, back to our little thing about...

Ellen: Face flaps.

Christian: Oh, I thought it was onlymantas.com. No, no. So, mantamatcher.org is actually a website to identify individual manta rays.

Ellen: Oh, like at a... Personal level?

Christian: Yeah. Well, like on an individual level. So, so let me describe what manta rays look like for those that maybe haven't seen them up close. They have the typical shape of a ray, a diamond shape, very pointed fins rather than rounded. On the top side of their body is mostly black with a little bit of white around the shoulders sometimes. And then the lower side is mostly white, but with black splotches. And those spots, so to say, are unique on every individual.

Ellen: Oh, I didn't know this.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: Okay.

Christian: Which is interesting, right, because I had noted that the largest one in the aquarium had spots that looked like a T-rex footprint, right?

Ellen: Oh yeah.

Christian: Yeah. So that's funny that that was my identifier for that manta ray, and that's what's used, it turns out,

Ellen: I imagine you'll probably go into this later, but can they identify each other by these markings?

Christian: I don't know about between themselves, but this is what humans use to identify individuals.

Ellen: Sure, sure, sure. Okay.

Christian: So the whole point of that website is, you know, people will upload pictures of manta rays that they come across. So of course the underside, s,o usually scuba divers and then they upload it to this website and it keeps track of them and is able to identify individuals based on those markings if you've got a good enough picture of it.

Ellen: Oh wow.

Christian: So it's very possible, you know, several people could run into the same individual manta ray.

Ellen: That is really cute. I really like that. I guess it's more likely for that to happen because of how big the manta rays are.

Christian: They're very big. Specifically, their wingspan can be up to 29 feet.

Ellen: Oh...

Christian: Or 8.8 meters.

Ellen: That's so many.

Christian: That's very big.

Ellen: That is like... 30 chickens.

Christian: Dang it! This again!

Ellen: You thought I forgot!

Christian: Uh, yeah, so that's about the length of a small bus, to put that in perspective.

Ellen: Now when you say wingspan, you mean...?

Christian: So tip to tip of their flaps.

Ellen: Yes. Side to side.

Christian: Yeah. And they can weigh up to 5,300 pounds or about 2,400 kilograms.

Ellen: Goodness!

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: That's a couple tons!

Christian: It's a biggun.

Ellen: Big boi.

Christian: The Georgia Aquarium has three giant manta rays and their names are Blue, Raven and Tallulah.

Ellen: Blue, Raven, and Tallulah.

Christian: Yes. They also have a reef manta ray, whose name is Nandi.

Ellen: Okay, so there's different types of Manta rays.

Christian: Yeah, there are two species. So the one we're talking about here is the giant manta ray and the other one is the reef manta ray. So, as might be indicated by their names, the reef manta ray is typically smaller than the giant.

Ellen: Makes sense, yeah, got it.

Christian: Some other small differences there, but mainly the size. Also coloration, and actually the giant manta ray has a remnant spine.

Ellen: Remnant spine? What does remnant mean here?

Christian: So many rays have spines on their tails, right?

Ellen: Oh, you mean- you're talking about a spine, like the stinger?

Christian: Yeah, like a stinger.

Ellen: Okay. I thought you were talking about like, vertibrae.

Christian: No, no, no, no.

Ellen: Okay.

Christian: So the giant manta ray has a little bump where a stinger might be on a ray, but it's just a remnant of it.

Ellen: Oh, like they used to have them and they don't have them anymore.

Christian: Yeah. Yeah.

Ellen: I guess when you're that big, you really don't need the stinger. Right?

Christian: I guess.

Ellen: The stinger, at that point it just kind of becomes like the end of a musket. It's like a saber that you've got like...

Christian: So yeah, and earlier we talked about the two appendages at the front of its face. So first of all, the manta ray's mouth is on its very front rather than on its underside.

Ellen: Oh, so this is different from the cownose ray.

Christian: Right.

Ellen: When we talked about the cownose ray, their mouth is on the bottom.

Christian: Correct. And the biggest reason why is that the manta ray is a filter feeder.

Ellen: Oh, okay okay okay.

Christian: Yes. And not unlike the whale sharks. So, they typically eat plankton-like animals and also small fish.

Ellen: They don't eat by... Like the cownose ray eats their food just by sucking it up off the bottom, but they don't do that. They just swim through the water and catch whatever they, whatever falls into their mouth.

Christian: Yep. And they have gill rakers that will stop the food from flowing through their gills along with the rest of the water as they've, as they swim.

Ellen: Oh, okay. So it's like a, like a mesh inside of their gills? What does it look like inside their gills?

Christian: I think it looks more like a brush.

Ellen: Okay.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: Like baleen almost? Like a similar structure?

Christian: It's not as fine. It's more coarse than that. It's a little hard to describe without seeing it, but it's easily found on the internet. Oh, and like we said, you know, there's two appendages are called cephalic lobes or cephalic fins. And what they do is that when they're feeding, they kind of pull them in and create a funnel to make the water flow into their mouths.

Ellen: Oh my gosh! That makes sense though.

Christian: Yeah!

Ellen: A little hydrodynamic lesson for ya.

Christian: Yeah. And those little lobes, by the way, have given them a nickname called the devil ray.

Ellen: Oh. Cause they look like devil horns!

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: That's so cute.

Christian: And also that sleek black on the top side of them, I think it's pretty interesting looking.

Ellen: Yeah, I think it makes them look like spaceships.

Christian: Now, where they're found. According to NOAA Fisheries website, the giant manta ray is found worldwide in tropical, subtropical, and temperate bodies of water and is commonly found offshore in oceanic waters and near productive coastlines. So you can find these all over the world within a certain latitude.

Ellen: I would imagine just in a big enough body of water.

Christian: Latitude or longitude? I always get those mixed up.

Ellen: I don't know which one is which. I'm so sorry.

Christian: So you'll find them along the world as long as you're close enough to the equator, but still a pretty wide berth there, and wherever you would find plankton of course. So, uh, they belong to the taxonomic family Mobulidae... or Mobulidae [pronounced differently]. Probably that one. The notable relatives there are just large ocean rays in general. Now let's get into the ratings.

Ellen: Yay!

Christian: First up effectiveness. This is the one where how good do they do the things they do?

Ellen: Okay. The thing that they do is...?

Christian: Filter feed, mostly. So like I said, they feed on plankton and small fish using gill rakers. Very large, like we mentioned.

Ellen: Ooh, they're big. They're so big.

Christian: So, my observation at the Georgia Aquarium was their largest one, Tallulah, the one I mentioned that looks like has a t-rex footprint on its belly, it to me looked like it was wider than all the other whale sharks in the tank.

Ellen: This is a big girl.

Christian: Yup.

Ellen: She's thick.

Christian: Definitely not as long as the whale sharks.

Ellen: Oh, no.

Christian: But I think at least as wide, or wider than. So because of that large sizes, they aren't really threatened by many things except for very large predators, like the larger sharks and of course humans. So I'm giving them a 9 out of 10 for effectiveness. And the only point I'm deducting is they don't really have a defense mechanism. It's just their size. That's it.

Ellen: This is similar to what you said for the manatee, that just their size is kind of their only- like nothing's gonna really fight them because of how big they are. Right? Like the size is a defense mechanism. But other than that, nothing much else.

Christian: Yeah. Cause it's not particularly fast.

Ellen: Oh yeah. They aren't, are they? They look- well I've seen them like get some air.

Christian: Yes. They breach.

Ellen: Yeah.

Christian: So that is thought to be a social behavior.

Ellen: Really?

Christian: Yes. Either for mating or just social interaction in general.

Ellen: They're showing off.

Christian: Basically.

Ellen: They're flexing on their buds, a little bit.

Christian: So yeah, 9 out of 10 for effectiveness.

Ellen: That's pretty good.

Christian: Ingenuity. This is how well do they do smart things, like tool use could be an example or interesting tactics, that sort of thing.

Ellen: Planning, thinking, solving puzzles.

Christian: Um, so I'm giving a 6 out of 10 for this one.

Ellen: Okay.

Christian: It's generally just swimming through the water. However, they can do flips in the water.

Ellen: It's so cute.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: I love it.

Christian: So they'll do interesting little maneuvers in the water to maximize the amount of plankton flowing into their mouths.

Ellen: It's so cute.

Christian: It's very interesting to watch. We got to see it a little bit at the main tank in the aquarium while we were there.

Ellen: We did, I loved it. It was so sweet.

Christian: Yeah, it's very good.

Ellen: And, and you know what? It's really surprising to see them do that because of how big they are.

Christian: Yeah, yeah.

Ellen: They're massive. Right? They're huge. You don't expect it. And they're massive, and also in the tank, they're moving slowly. They're not really booking it.

Christian: I mean, I'd say they're probably moving around the average speed of most things in that tank.

Ellen: Yeah. But still, like they're not getting the type of speed that you would expect them to be like doing cool tricks and stuff.

Christian: Right.

Ellen: They're just kind of moseying around the tank and then all of a sudden you look up and they're just pulling off a sweet 360 kickflip.

Christian: So, I mentioned one of my sources being the show The Aquarium on Animal Planet. So, the specific episode- I unfortunately did not note the episode number or the title of this episode- but one of the things they did in there was measuring the weight of one of their manta rays, and it was actually the reef manta ray, Nandi.

Ellen: The more little one.

Christian: Yeah. Yeah. And by the way, this show aired this summer. I'm not sure when it was recorded. I'm sure it was at least a year ago, if they were airing it this summer. You know, they had gotten a new system because their manta rays had gotten too big for their old system to measure their weight.

Ellen: Oh Wow.

Christian: Yeah. So they were starting with their smallest manta ray to test out the new system, and while they were doing it, they kind of showed how they feed them, which I thought was interesting. They have these little cups full of like, shrimp and krill and stuff on these big long poles and they kind of tap it on the top of the water and the in the main tank, and then the manta rays know like, oh, this is food time. So that they start swimming towards the surface of the water and the person feeding them will kind of walk along the edge of the tank, kind of dropping the food into the water in front of them and letting it flow into their mouths as they're moving.

Ellen: Oh, okay.

Christian: Yeah, it's pretty cute.

Ellen: Making a little food cloud.

Christian: And they have to be careful. Uh, so one of the reasons they weigh them is so they know exactly how much food to give them. So it's important that they feed them individually so they can track how much each one has had.

Ellen: Why is that so important?

Christian: Oh, cause they don't want to overfeed or underfeed.

Ellen: Oh. Yeah.

Christian: And they can't just throw it in the water and...

Ellen: Hope for the best?

Christian: Cause there's other things in the tank. Right? So, just so everyone is maybe not so familiar with the Georgia aquarium, it is the largest aquarium in the western hemisphere.

Ellen: So big. It's so big.

Christian: It is one of the only ones with whale sharks.

Ellen: Very impressive.

Christian: And in that main tank with the whale sharks are these manta rays along with, gosh, I want to say..

Ellen: Everything. So many.

Christian: What, like a hundred other species of fish in there maybe?

Ellen: Probably even more than that. They got crabs, they got sharks, they got turtles, they got... Random fish. They got those little wormy things that poke their heads out of the sand.

Christian: Well, I'm talking about the main tank though.

Ellen: Weren't those in the main tank?

Christian: They were in their own thing.

Ellen: Oh, well anyway...

Christian: I mean, they might be in there too. I don't know.

Ellen: They got grouper! Those big huge groupers that swim around looking all grumpy all the time. They got those. And they got all these, not just manta rays but like tons and tons of different types of rays also, like eagle rays and...

Christian: The cow nose rays that you were talking about in a prior episode.

Ellen: Just so many. I mean you could sit there all day and see all sorts of cool stuff.

Christian: So yeah, this is a huge, huge, huge tank. Big enough for the whale sharks and that's what we're talking about here.

Ellen: Big enough for FOUR whale sharks.

Christian: Yes, four. So if you ever, if you ever get the chance, check it out. It's pretty impressive.

Ellen: And you think like, a tank with four whale sharks in it and also these- how many did you say? How many manta rays?

Christian: Four.

Ellen: Four whale sharks, four manta rays. There are- the tank is so big that you could be sitting there and at times you do not see any of them because they're over in a different part of the tank and the tank is just so big that even though these are like, some of the biggest animals in the world, they're completely invisible because of how far away they are.

Christian: And they're actually working on a shark expansion. So yeah, that was the ingenuity. 6 out of 10, mostly for the flips and stuff.

Ellen: Yeah, I mean you can give them points for that! That's pretty good!

Christian: Yeah! Aesthetics, probably not surprising, I'm giving them a full 10 out of 10 for aesthetics.

Ellen: Oh, they're beautiful.

Christian: I think they're really cool looking.

Ellen: They are. We mentioned this while we were sitting there looking at them, I think they look like alien space ships. They look like, to me, they are going to jump out of the water and hover over the ground and the bottom of them is going to open up and these little aliens are going to come out and they're going to like, start collecting samples of the earth and take them back to their alien planet. That's just what they look like to me.

Christian: Yup. They're very cool looking and I find them very sleek from the top down, seeing the black wings.

Ellen: Perfect for space travel.

Christian: So, some other information. Conservation status on the IUCN Red List, they are listed as vulnerable. First of all, they're threatened by overfishing, and that is both deliberate and as bycatch

Ellen: They are being fished... Like people are catching them? Or are catching the things that they need to eat?

Christian: So... Them. People are catching them on purpose and also catching them on accident.

Ellen: Why would you want to catch one?

Christian: So unfortunately, in parts of the world, they are valued for their flesh as food...

Ellen: Aw, gross.

Christian: But also, as their gill rakers.

Ellen: ...What?

Christian: Yes, their gill rakers are used in traditional Chinese medicine.

Ellen: Oh that's not good.

Christian: It is not, as it seems to be the case in all animal products used for that.

Ellen: Yeah, don't do that. That's incorrect. Don't do it.

Christian: So that's what threatens them, and also their birth rate makes it difficult for them to make comebacks. AndI'll talk about that here... Now, actually. Right now. So, a little bit more details on their birth. So they are what's called ovo...vivi...parous.

Ellen: We've done this word three times now.

Christian: Yes. Meaning the embryo develops within eggs retained in the mother's uterus.

Ellen: Very good.

Christian: And for manta rays- for giant manta rays, that is- they're thought to give birth to a single pup every two or three years.

Ellen: Okay. Yeah. I mean when you got big pub, when they're so big.

Christian: So yeah. So that's what I'm talking about with, you know, because of that birth rate, it makes things difficult to come back from, you know, over fishing and whatnot. Now here's my favorite part about the birth. So when born, the pup folds its wings around its body to make the exit out of the birth canal easier. So it's like a little manta ray burrito.

Ellen: Oh my god! Oh my god he's folded up in a tortilla! Oh my God, that's so cute!

Christian: Right?

Ellen: Did you see any like pictures or videos of this happening?

Christian: It was really difficult to find pictures. I didn't, I couldn't find one of it happening, but I think I found a picture of one. Just a baby. They're very cute.

Ellen: This makes me think of in old cartoons, you would see a stork delivering babies to their, you know, awaiting families and the baby- the stork would always be carrying the baby in this cloth like, bag thing. And the baby is always like wrapped up like swaddled in a piece of cloth. This makes me think of the manta ray being like, swaddled in its little flip flaps that it's got wrapped around so, so tenderly and then delivered via stork to the very eager Mama Manta Ray.

Christian: Right?

Ellen: Oh man. They swaddle themselves! I'm dying. I can't. I love it.

Christian: I thought you would enjoy that imagery too.

Ellen: Wow, that's really great. I didn't even know that.

Christian: Very good. So that's probably a good note to leave on for the manta ray- the giant manta ray.

Ellen: I love the giant manta ray. Thank you Christian. That was really delightful.

Christian: Anytime.

Ellen: I know you were very charmed by them in the aquarium. We had a lot of fun watching them.

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: And what's really cool in that aquarium is that it has that type of thing where there's a big sort of tunnel for you to go through that goes underneath the tank. So you're going through this big tunnel and all around you, you're seeing the inside of the tank, so you're seeing whale sharks and manta rays swim over your head. It was so neat.

Christian: I love it, personally.

Ellen: It's really great. I could spend all day there. I took a lot of cool pictures too.

Christian: Yeah, I'm really excited to see some of them.

Ellen: Yeah, I'm going to have to go through them tomorrow. Well, so for those of you that don't know, we're in Jacksonville, Florida and there's a hurricane coming our way, so we may have some time on our hands over the next few days.

Christian: Ooh, I hope we don't lose power, like tomorrow or...

Ellen: Yeah, we might. We might. Who knows?

Christian: Maybe this, this episode might be delayed because of that, but we'll see.

Ellen: Stay tuned. I don't know. We'll figure it out. We'll do our best. Anything for y'all because we love you guys.

Christian: So now that brings us to the middle of the podcast episode. Do you want to talk about our patrons?

Ellen: Yes, I do. I mentioned earlier that we started a Patreon and it went really, really well and we had, you know, a few people already kind of signed up to pledge. So we're really excited about that, it helped us be able to launch our new website. We bought a domain and you know, like built the website and it we're really happy about it. So, if you want to help like, kind of get it on that action and help us grow and do other really cool things- We want to do all sorts of really cool things. Like, we want to start doing interviews and like onsite recordings and we want to just really start getting out there and doing some cool stuff, but that requires some investments on our part. So, if you- if any of that stuff sounds exciting to you and you want to help us get there, you can help us grow and also get access to some other really cool perks, like a feed of the show without ads and a patron-only discord server and some other pretty neat stuff. I'm actually looking into more things that I can include in the patron perks, so go check it out. You can support us for as little as $1 a month over at patreon.com/justthezooofus. And for this week's episode, I would like to especially thank our patrons, Briana Feinberg, Krystina Sanders and Shae Winters.

Christian: Yeah, thank you folks.

Ellen: Yeah, one of the patron tiers involves being included in this little segment right here. So you know, if you want your name included in that shout out list, go check us out on Patreon.

Christian: All right, hun, what do you got for us this week?

Ellen: So I also chose to talk about an animal that I fell in love with at Zoo Atlanta. They call it Zoo Atlanta.

Christian: Yup.

Ellen: So an animal that I fell in love with there- I talked about how I was really excited for giant panda, but we already talked about giant panda, so I couldn't do that one.

Christian: Whoops.

Ellen: But so I chose the red panda. This is called Ailurus fulgens.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: I fell in love with this animal at Zoo Atlanta, but it had also been requested to us by Juan Ocharan. So he requested a very long time ago and it's been sitting on my list and I've been eyeballing it and wanting to talk about it for a long time and I figured this would be a great opportunity to do it because they're fresh on the brain.

Ellen: Cool, thanks Juan.

Ellen: Yes, thank you so much. So I'm getting my information for this segment from, naturally, Zoo Atlanta, but also the San Diego Zoo and Smithsonian National Zoo. So I'm gonna introduce you to my new best friend, the red panda. If you have never seen this animal before, I call it a cinnamon raccoon. It is a- imagine a raccoon, and a thicc one...

Christian: Spicy.

Ellen: A spicy, thick raccoon, and it has thick, fluffy, bright red fur... Either bright red or like a dark red with a black belly, black legs, and then white markings on its face and white ears. And its kind of defining characteristic is it has this really long, really bushy tail with red and gold rings. Oh, it's stellar. I can't go too much into it cause I have a whole section for that.

Christian: Yep, yep yep.

Ellen: So they're only about the size of, like a large house cat. Maybe like a small to medium dog. They're not that big. They're only about two feet long, or around 60 centimeters. Now the bushy tail adds another foot and a half, or 45 centimeters. So yeah, it's about the size of like a smallish dog. You're gonna find these cuties in rainy forests at high altitudes in the mountains of Nepal, China, India and Tibet and kind of that whole like, sort of Southeast Asia area. Think like Himalayas.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: Himalayan mountains. Like there, you're going to find them in very, very rainy forests up high in the mountains. Their taxonomic family is Ailuridae. Now, let's talk taxonomy. This is an ordeal. This is a whole situation. I really didn't think I was going to have so many notes on taxonomy, but here we are. So looking at the panda, looks like raccoon. Also, similar to panda bear. They have many similar traits that I'll go into in a few minutes.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: They're also called pandas. So, the red panda belongs to this family Ailuridae. They are the only member of the Ailuridae family, and they have no living relatives at all.

Ellen: Woah.

Ellen: None. So throughout kind of their whole history, their taxonomy has been really controversial. So when they were originally found, they were believed to be members of the raccoon family, the same family as raccoons, but then they were studied a little bit more and moved into the bear family with the giant pandas. But now, they're understood to be completely separate from both. They're not members of either of those families, although the family Ailuridae is believed to be part of the super family called Musteloidea, which also contains the procyonids, which are raccoons and coatimundis and stuff like that, and also the mustelids, which are weasels and badgers and things like that. So they're in the same superfamily with those, but they're not part of the families. They're their own family and they don't have any other members. So it's just them in their family.

Christian: That's interesting.

Ellen: It is. It's actually really, really cool. They have some common ancestors, but they go back millions of years, right.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: So what's actually really kinda, I thought was cool is that you hear way more about giant pandas than you hear about red pandas. The red panda was named first.

Christian: Really?

Ellen: The red panda was documented by French zoologist, Frederic Cuvier 48 years before the giant panda.

Christian: Okay, huh.

Ellen: And named panda, like red panda.

Christian: Oh, you know what? This is jogging my memory a little bit. I think I came across this when I was doing the giant panda. Yeah.

Ellen: Yeah, so actually the red panda was named first and then the giant panda was named after it, which is funny cause now the giant panda is the one that gets all the spotlight.

Christian: I don't know if this is me remembering it wrong, but I feel like they weren't called red pandas at first. They were just pandas.

Ellen: Yeah. And then the giant panda came along and then you had the giant panda and the lesser panda.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: They are also called the lesser panda, but most people call them red pandas right now.

Christian: Right.

Ellen: So what I thought was kinda cute is that its scientific name comes from the Greek word for cat and then the Latin word for fire, giving us fire cat.

Christian: Oh, that's cool.

Ellen: Yeah. That also means like glowing or something that's like bright. It could also mean like a glowing cat.

Christian: It's like the um... The character from Legend of Korra.

Ellen: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah! Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just like that. That- my favorite creature. Yeah. So that's just kinda where the whole etymology of the red panda came from.

Christian: That is quite the roller coaster.

Ellen: Yeah. I definitely thought that the red panda was like named after the giant panda, but they're not.

Christian: You'd think so, yeah.

Ellen: Effectiveness. How good they do. I gave it an 8 out of 10.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: 8 out of 10. These are pretty good, they're pretty good. They are very well adapted to cold climates because they live up there in the forest, really high up in the mountains. So they're dealing with some pretty cold temperatures. They deal with some pretty heavy snowfall and they're very well acclimated to it. They have that layered fur that you see in a lot of cold weather mammals. It has this course, outer guard hairs and then a wooly undercoat underneath it that helps them insulate their body and keep them warm in the Himalayan snow.

Christian: Nice and toasty.

Ellen: It is nice, it just keeps them real snug as a bug. But even more than that, they have that long fluffy tail. It has two purposes. The first is my favorite. They wrap their tail around their body to keep them warm while they sleep.

Christian: Ohhh!

Ellen: Yes, it's perfect and amazing. Actually, the one that we saw at the zoo was doing this. It was all wrapped up with it's tail.

Christian: Awww.

Ellen: Very cute. Yeah, it's adorable. It's so sweet. So yes, buil-tin blanket, obviously fantastic right there. But another thing that they use it for is that they use it to stay balanced while they're climbing.

Christian: Makes sense.

Ellen: Cause they live up in the trees and they spend most of their time moving around between branches and stuff. So the tail helps them stay up while they're walking on narrow limbs. So another way they deal with these really cold temperatures is similar to the slath that we just talked about very recently, they can slow down their metabolic activity to this dormant state, in order to allow them to conserve energy during times of extreme temperatures. So this is particularly important because like the sloth, they have a diet that's not very nutritionally dense. So they're not getting a lot of energy input, so they have to make sure they're not outputting very much.

Christian: That makes sense.

Ellen: Yeah, so they can actually regulate their metabolism to sort of optimize that. So they have some other adaptations that give them some nutritional advantages as well. They are technically part of the carnivora order, but they're actually omnivores and they do have strongly herbiv- herBIvorous? HerbiVORous? HerBIvorous. Herbivorous tendencies. Most of their diet is bamboo. Like 90% of their diet is bamboo. That's what they mostly eat. But they also like to eat things like acorns, fruits, leaves, other stuff like that. And they do sometimes eat things like birds or eggs or little things that they can catch or whatever. It's not a lot.

Christian: Like, opportunistically.

Ellen: Yeah. They'll take it if it's there, but I mean it's not something that they typically will go out and- they're not hunters. They don't go out and hunt for things, but they- so, since they do have that tendency to eat a little bit of both, they have both sharp canine teeth at the front of their mouth as well as these big thick, powerful molars in the back of their mouth. So that makes it really easy for them to both tear and chew through tough vegetation or whatever it is that they're trying to eat. Their teeth are adapted for both eating meat or eating plants.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: Yeah, so they can do either one. They're pretty good at that. I thought that gave them a huge edge over the giant panda for having that variety in their diet. Right? They're not just eating bamboo all the time.

Christian: Just the straight refusal to do the rest of their diet.

Ellen: Yeah. They're a little bit... But so this is also something that I learned. They have a what's called a pseudo thumb that is a digit that they share with the giant panda. I don't remember whether you talked about this in your segment on the panda or not.

Christian: I might not have talked about it, but I do remember reading about it.

Ellen: Yeah. So what this is is this is an enlarged wrist bone, actually. It's a bone in their wrist that is bigger, that basically makes their front paws... it looks to me like they had an opposable thumb, but the digit got like, yanked off? Like, it looks like if you looked at somebody's hand and their thumb was gone, but they would still have that sort of bulging part on the side of the hand.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: That's what it looks like to me. So it's basically just like this padded bump on their wrist, and what that does is it lets them wrap their paw around bamboo and grip it better with that sort of fake thumb. It's not a full digit, but it acts as a grip enhancer basically. So while I'm talking about their paws, this surprised me while I was looking at them. The pads of their paws are covered with hair.

Ellen: Really?

Ellen: Yeah. I have never seen another animal with paws like this where rather than that bare skin, those pads that you usually see on other mustelids, procyonids and bears, they all have these paws that have these bare pads on the bottom of it where it's just skin, it's bald skin, but the red panda's paws are covered in hair. So this is because the forest that they live in experience a lot of rainfall, so the branches ended up being really, really wet and slippery and the hair helps them grip onto it. And it's also really good for helping them move around in ice and snow. The hair makes them grip better in ice in the snow and it's just, it's better for them to move around.

Christian: That's cool. I know other animals have that kind of adaptation for stealth advantage.

Ellen: Yeah, I did see- I saw like, one other source say it was to mask their scent and that it kept them from leaving behind so much scent, but I couldn't- I only saw it on one source, I don't know if that's true or not.

Christian: Sure, sure.

Ellen: I saw it on the Internet floating around there somewhere. So, I don't know.

Christian: Gotcha.

Ellen: Yeah. So that's my 8 out of 10. They have a bunch of really cool adaptations that make them really, really good for living where they live. Better than the giant panda, I'll give them that.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: So ingenuity. I also gave the red panda a 6 out of 10.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: Mostly because I couldn't really find very much about them. You know, they live alone, they're solitary. What I thought was kind of cool was that females, when they're ready to give birth to their babies, they build a nest out of twigs and grass and they line it with moss so that it's nice and insulated and soft for their babies. Yeah. Yeah, so they actually like kind of build their own nest. It's usually up in trees, like up in a crook of a tree or something. So I dunno, I gave them a couple of points for building nest. I thought that was kind of cute. And there is a lot to be said for the fact that they get most of their food from foraging. So naturally they have to be pretty decent at figuring out how to get their food. So Zoo Atlanta provides enrichment for their red pandas in the form of treats that are hidden in boxes or tubes that the panda has to manipulate to get out. So they can at least do those. Right? I don't know how complicated they are. I don't know if they're like puzzle cubes or whatever, but it's at least something that gets their brain stimulated a little bit.

Christian: Well good.

Ellen: Yeah. So I couldn't really find very much else on their intelligence. They're just, I just gave them a 6. It seems like not fantastic, but they're probably not dumb.

Christian: Right.

Ellen: So that's my, my 6 out of 10 for ingenuity. Aesthetics. Come on, 10 out of 10. Perfect. You can't improve on this.

Christian: They're very cute.

Ellen: So actually, the zoologist I mentioned at the beginning, Cuvier, the guy that first cataloged them, described the red panda as the most beautiful animal he'd ever seen.

Christian: Aww.

Ellen: Yeah. Said it was like, the most beautiful animal in the world. And I think he's right. Everything about them is perfect and I would protect them with my life. These are very good, thicc bois and they're very soft and they have these really sweet soft ears and their face is so tiny for their fluffy body and the ears do a really cute thing to where they have this like, tuft of fur, like underneath their ears that gives this the sort of, it's a very cat-like appearance. But definitely go down the YouTube rabbit hole of red panda videos because, as adorable as they are to look at in pictures, there's 60 times more adorable in motion. So watching videos of them, just how they tumble around, they're so cute. They seem like they just kind of throw themselves everywhere they go. Like they just jump everywhere. It's so cute.

Christian: At the zoo, I noticed it had bigger claws than I was expecting.

Ellen: Big sharp claws. They actually can use those for self-defense too.

Christian: Really?

Ellen: Yeah. So when they're threatened, they will actually stand up on their hind legs and swipe with their claws.

Christian: Okay! Get it.

Ellen: Yeah. It's pretty cute.

Christian: Well...

Ellen: That's probably not what they're going for, but I think it's cute. But yeah, there's also a subreddit dedicated to red pandas. It's just called red pandas.

Christian: Alright.

Ellen: Yeah, it's pretty great. I spent a little bit of time just kind of wasting time on there today and watching some really cute red panda videos. They're so cute!

Ellen: Aren't they?

Ellen: My favorite videos are of them playing in the snow because they really like to like, slide down hills in the snow and they seem like they're having a good time.

Christian: I believe there's a zoo in the U.S. that recently got cubs.

Ellen: Oh, you know what? I shared something about that.

Christian: I think it was the Cincinnati Zoo? Maybe?

Ellen: That sounds right. I'll look into it. I'll fix it if it needs to.

Christian: Just- yeah, take this whole bit out if I was wrong.

Ellen: Somewhere, there's- how about this. Somewhere in the world right now, there's baby red pandas, and that's enough to be happy about.

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: Well, that brings us to the conservation status...

Christian: Okay!

Ellen: Endangered.

Christian: Aww...

Ellen: Not doing good. So red pandas have legal protection in the countries that they live in, but they still are facing a lot of threatening factors. So first of all, they're losing habitat due to deforestation, and that deforestation results from a lot of different things. It could be logging or farming or clearing land for livestock or harvesting firewood. Lot of different reasons people are cutting down forests in the areas that they live in. So this reduces the amount of space available for the red panda to live in, and it also fragments their habitat. And we've talked about this with a few different animals before, that this causes the populations to become cut off from each other. And that means that they can't find new mates to mate with. And this results in inbreeding and really poor genetic diversity. So, the populations there then become at higher risk of genetic problems or threat from disease. All these different problems from the habitat being broken into chunks. Livestock in the areas that they live in can also deplete vegetation and leave the red panda without enough bamboo to eat, cause livestock will move into an area, eat all the bamboo and it doesn't leave enough for the red panda.

Christian: Don't do that...

Ellen: No, it's not nice. Yeah, so even though they do... Even though they are legally protected in the areas that they live in, unfortunately illegal poaching and trade still kind of persists, and is actually on the rise. So it happens more and more in these areas. So unfortunately their 10 out of 10 aesthetic score works against them in this department because since they are so incredibly beautiful, they're hunted for their skin. Their pelts are very valuable because of how beautiful it is, it's got that really nice rich red color. So they're hunted for their pelts, but also they're just so cute and they're so like, mild mannered and chill and, you know, they're not that difficult to handle because of how small they are, and they're so cute, they're a prime target for illegal pet trade. So people will grab them and just kind of turn them into pets.

Christian: Man...

Ellen: Hey y'all? Stop doing that. Don't do that. Don't bring wild animals into your house. Super Duper don't do that. Like, a lot of times you'll see videos floating around on social media of like wildlife rehabilitators that for whatever reason are like rehabilitating an animal in their home, or for whatever reason they just have a wild animal that they're taking care of in their home, and then that pops off on social media, it gets shared everywhe, people think, oh my gosh, it's totally cool for me to bring, you know, whatever wild animal I want into my house because this other person is doing it. When it's like you don't know the story that's going on there. You don't know if maybe that animal can't go back to the wild or maybe they rescued it for something from something like you don't know the whole story. But then it makes people think, "oh, I want to have a red panda in my house and it'll be fine!" But it's super duper super duper not, not cool and not good to do that. So don't bring wildlife into your house is my thing.

Christian: Yup. Golden rule.

Ellen: That's our golden rule. Sure. There's some other golden rules floating around out there, but ours...

Christian: Probably not. This is the only one.

Ellen: No, this is the one. So yeah, that's the red panda.

Christian: Well, thank you!

Ellen: They're very cute, but please leave them outside.

Christian: Thank you honey. Very good animal.

Ellen: You're welcome. Uh, yeah. So next up I've got some audience responses. I have two that I would really like to share with you. Yep. They're really good.

Christian: Yay!

Ellen: So our buddy Emily Bell said in response to the honey bee segment in episode 15, Emily says: "In this episode you asked something to the effect of what's it called when an invasive species is good, in reference to the honey bees being established in the U.S. but not native. Well, this is kind of what I do. I am a natural resource planner specializing in invasive species issues and I wanted to answer this. The definition of an invasive species is a non-native species that is established and typically expanding in its new range and causes environmental harm, economic harm and or harm to human health and quality of life. All this to say that the term non-native doesn't automatically mean invasive. There are many species brought in for agriculture or horticulture that are introduced, but that we do not apply the term invasive too like honeybees."

Christian: Very interesting.

Ellen: Yep! So that was pretty cool. That was some really cool insight that we got on invasive versus non native species.

Christian: Yeah. Thank you Emily.

Ellen: Yeah, thank you Emily. And the next one that I wanted to share is from our friend Miranda Lowery, who we met at the aquarium!

Christian: Yeah!

Ellen: Yeah, that was so fun! That was really exciting for us. Miranda Lowery pointed out in response to the slotgs segment in episode 16 in which we coined the iconic slogan fartboat: "While sloths have a ton of gasses from basically fermented vegetation in their gut, they are the only proven mammal that can't fart."

Christian: So sad!

Ellen: They just can't. So all that fart boat hype for nothing. They can't fart.

Christian: That's so sad. Alexa...

Ellen: Shhh! She can hear you.

Christian: I just heard her say "WHAT?" from the room over.

Ellen: She's so mad at us. So yeah, sorry. No fart boats. But apparently they release the fermented gases through their breath. So...

Christian: That's...

Ellen: Worse.

Christian: Yeah. Not better.

Ellen: No, it's not better at all. It's not an improvement. Well, that's all I had.

Christian: My feedback: we're great! - Christian Weatherford

Ellen: Thanks for your feedback. Hey, wait, your feedback doesn't count because you don't listen to the show. Listen to the show, and then you can put in feedback.

Christian: People tell me it's great.

Ellen: Anyway, well that's all I had this week, so thank you so much. I want to thank everybody who has been listening to the show and especially everybody who has been recommending our show and submitting reviews to your podcatcher of choice. Those really help us out a lot, so thank you very much for doing that. You can connect with us on Facebook, Twitter or Instagram by searching the title of the show. Please come hang out with us in our Facebook group! It's so fun! It's called Just the Zoo of Us: Official Friend Squad and it's really great. Y'all are hilarious. That's where we're getting a lot of these like audience feedback, like a lot of these like listener responses and stuff are coming from the Facebook group so it's...

Christian: Good stuff.

Ellen: It's really popping off. If you have an animal species you want to hear us review, you could submit those to me personally at ellen@justthezooofus.com.

Christian: Oh thank God.

Ellen: I know Christian was really... Christian was really distressed by the fact that our old Gmail address did not line up with our other social media handles. He was really upset about that. A transcript of this episode and other episodes can be found at www.justthezooofus.com. Last note. Thank you Louie Zong for the use of your song "Adventuring" from your album Bee Sides. We love you.

Christian: Especially me.

Ellen: Yeah. Especially Christian. I don't know why you said that so weird.

Christian: I don't know. I love that song.

Ellen: We love that song and we love all of his album and all of his, we love all of his albums and all of his music and everything he does is great and perfect. Just like the red panda!

Christian: I frequently wake up with his music stuck in my head.

Ellen: It's a really good music to wake up to though. It's very peppy and it makes you feel good. Just like our podcast!

Christian: There's the plug.

Ellen: Just like our podcast that you're currently listening to, and that I'm still trying to sell you on for some reason. I mean, we're like an hour into the show and you're still listening, so I don't think I need to keep putting the hustle in.

Christian: All right.

Ellen: All right. Thanks everybody. We love you.

Christian: Thank you!

Ellen: Byeee!

Christian: Bye!

16: Blobfish & Three-toed Sloth

Ellen: Hey friends, this is Ellen Weatherford.

Christian: And this is Christian Weatherford.

Ellen: And this is Just the Zoo of Us, the animal review podcast where we take your favorite species of animals, we review them and we rate them out of 10 in the categories of effectiveness, ingenuity and aesthetics. Christian and I are not zoological experts. We do a lot of research and we do our best to make sure we're presenting information from trustworthy sources.

Christian: As best we can.

Ellen: Yup. And in that vein, I would like to make our first ever self-correction. Yes. I was listening to something recently where I heard them talk about nudibranchs*.

Christian: Oh!

Ellen: In episode 5, we talked about the blue dragon sea slug, Glaucus atlanticus, and I repeatedly referred to them as [new-di-branchs].

Christian: Okay, that's how I would have pronounced it too.

Ellen: This is a pronunciation issue. Apparently a lot of people do pronounce it that way, but the most commonly accepted way of pronouncing it is nudibranch.

Christian: Kind of in that same etymology as the bronchial parts of the breathing system, maybe.

Ellen: Sure. Or like, chiropractic things? Chiropracty? So anyway, I heard someone refer to them as nudibranchs and I remembered that we had called them [new-di-branches] and I felt really self-conscious about it. So, just to double check myself, I messaged the Monterey Bay Aquarium and asked them how they pronounce it and they said nudibranchs, so I'm going to take their word for it and apologize for mispronouncing nudibranch over and over again.

Christian: All good.

Ellen: Yup.

Christian: That's cool that the Monterey Bay aquarium replied back to you.

Ellen: They did and they were very friendly about it. It was a DM exchange on Twitter that was maybe like three or four messages long, and they somehow manage to cram like eight puns into those.

Christian: I was about to say, did they answer in the form of a meme?

Ellen: Well not a meme, no, but there were some emojis in there.

Christian: Excellent.

Ellen: Yeah. But they were, they were very responsive to my question and helped out a lot, so...

Christian: Fantastic.

Ellen: That's my little self-correction. It's nudibranch, not [new-di-branch].

Christian: Learn something new every day.

Ellen: Yep. So that's, that's just part of our journey for self improvement. All right. So last week I went first with the Malayan Flying Fox, so Christian, it is your turn to go first this week.

Christian: Yeah. So speaking of learning something new, my animal for this week is the infamous blob fish.

Ellen: Fantastic.

Christian: The blobfish was recommended to us by Matthew St. Jean and Dalton Weeks .

Ellen: Incessantly, I might add.

Christian: Yes!

Ellen: So you can finally get off our backs. Persistence pays off, folks.

Christian: So the blobfish, that actually, that term actually refers to a couple of different species- or it could, I should say, but the one specifically I'm going to be doing is the Psychrolutes microporos. This is the species thought to be of the infamous picture of the blobfish on the internet.

Ellen: Yep. I've got it in my head. Yep. Giant booger, right?

Christian: Yeah. Basically. Yeah. I'm getting my information from the australianmuseum.net.au website, that's the Australian Museum website. And speaking of which, that blobfish picture that so many new about, that little blobfish was known as Mr. Blobby by the ship crew that pulled it up while trolling.

Ellen: Boy, a lot of creative minds on that, uh... On that trolley, huh?

Ellen: Uhh, this! Now let's do the next thing.

Ellen: It's kind of blob-shaped... All right, Mr. Blobby, we'll go with that.

Christian: I wonder if they even got the gender right, but anyway...

Ellen: It could have been a Miss Blobby. I.

Christian: That's true. So a little bit of basic info. This particular specimen was 285 millimeters long, or about 11 inches.

Ellen: Oh, that's pretty big.

Christian: Yeah. Yeah. This particular one again was found off of the Norfolk Ridge, which is northwest of New Zealand, and it was pulled up from between 1,013 meters and 1,340 meters, which is about 3,300 to 4,400 feet, and that happened in June of 2003. However, the family can be found in the Atlantic, Indian, and Pacific oceans anywhere between the depths of 100 meters and 2,800 meters or 300 to 9,000 feet.

Ellen: Oh, that's way down there.

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: That's over a mile down.

Christian: It's quite a bit.

Ellen: Dang.

Christian: The taxonomic family that they belong to is called the Psychrolutidae, and the relatives in that family are of course the blobfish along with some other fish known as fathead sculpins.

Ellen: Fathead... One more time?

Christian: Fathead sculpins.

Ellen: Sculpin.

Ellen: S-C-U-L-P-I-N-S.

Ellen: Okay.

Ellen: Yeah.

Ellen: They were not kind with the naming convention of this fish. They're looking at him like, he's got fat head, we'll call him fathead.

Christian: So I think as many of our listeners can probably guess, a lot of what I have to say is going to fall under the aesthetic section, but luckily that's the last one. So first off...

Ellen: Let's really build up to it. This is the drum roll, leading up to.

Christian: So first up is effectiveness. This is how well do they do the things that they are meant to do. So these are kind of natural abilities, things that are built in to themselves to do this.

Ellen: How good their body do.

Christian: Right. So for the blobfish, I'm giving it a 7 out of 10 for effectiveness.

Ellen: That's okay. That's pretty good.

Christian: And that is because it is found in very, very deep water and it is built for very, very deep water. So one, its bones are very soft to avoid cracking under extreme pressures.

Ellen: Is it bone or is it cartilage?

Christian: They refer to it as bone.

Ellen: Okay! Cool.

Christian: Yeah. And then it's flesh and muscles are very flabby and soft, which is meant to handle the pressures, which kind of goes back to the goblin shark. Right? Cause that was one of the big descriptors.

Ellen: Yeah, definitely flabby is what I was thinking.

Christian: Yep. Uh, so they're built for these extreme pressures. Another thing that they have going for them is they don't have a swim bladder like many fish do. And that has to do with the extreme changes in pressure. I'm going to talk more about that in the aesthetic section though.

Ellen: Well, well hold on. They don't have a swim bladder. How do they stay up?

Christian: So they don't have a swim bladder, and the way they get around that is that their body being made of kind of a flabby material is of a density very close to water.

Ellen: Okay.

Christian: So they have a basically a neutral buoyancy.

Ellen: Oh! So how do they make themselves go higher or lower in the water?

Christian: Just swimming slightly.

Ellen: Oh. Okay.

Christian: So when you have a net buoyancy or net neutral buoyancy, you'll just stay wherever you're at and then you can just kinda guide yourself with momentum up or down.

Ellen: Oh, you're just aiming.

Christian: Basically.

Ellen: Okay.

Christian: Um, think of space movement basically.

Ellen: Nice.

Christian: Whereas other kinds of fish, they are not of the same density as water. So yeah. So there are fish that require air bladders to control where they are in the water column, and then that air bladder has to react to them being in different parts of the water column because then the deeper you go, the more pressure is exerted on you. Again, I'm going to go more into how this affects the blobfish particularly a little further down.

Ellen: Okay. We'll get there.

Christian: So next up is ingenuity. This is the category that describes how good they are at doing things like tool use or making plans, things that are intelligent. I'm giving the blobfish just a 4 out of 10 on this one. And I should also mention there is not a whole lot of data out there about the blobfish.

Ellen: Oh yeah?

Christian: Yeah. So these little guys are found very deep in the water and it is pretty rare to find them in their natural habitat and living. They are found many times being pulled up by deep trawlers, but otherwise not a whole lot of information there.

Ellen: I think that's common for deep sea creatures.

Christian: Very.

Ellen: Because there's just so much space to cover. You can't possibly have eyes on them at all times. Right? Like it's just so vast. That's like most of the earth. Most of our planet is wide open ocean areas.

Christian: Yep.

Ellen: So it's just impossible to keep tabs on what they're up to.

Christian: Yeah. I think it's said that we know more about the surface of the moon than we do the bottom of our own ocean.

Ellen: Yeah. And like once you get down there, oh boy, it's popping off down there deep in the ocean. That's where you start to get into the really just completely wild evolutionary, like, evolution just went insane down there.

Christian: Yep. Because it has to depend on all sorts of different things. So yeah, I'm giving the blobfish a 4 out of 10 for ingenuity and I'm mostly giving it that score for its ability as an ambush predator.

Ellen: Really?!

Christian: So they're not very fast, of course.

Ellen: They don't look fast.

Christian: So they do a sit and wait type method where they just wait for other things to get close to it.

Ellen: Are they on the bottom of the ocean or are they swimming around, just kind of like in the like open water?

Christian: It seemed, most of the pictures I've seen of them in their natural habitat have been at the bottom.

Ellen: Okay.

Christian: So I think that range in depth primarily depends on where does the bottom sit in their particular environment.

Ellen: Oh that makes more sense. Okay.

Christian: Cause they're not, I don't think they're swimming up and down a huge range of depth, it just happens- just wherever the bottom happens to be.

Christian: Okay. That makes sense. Okay, so they're chilling out at the bottom. Maybe they're like hiding in rocks or like maybe they're hiding and waiting for their prey to get close by.

Christian: What's weird is that the videos I've seen of them, like open sandy areas and then they're just kind of hugging like the sparse rock or piece of coral here and there, just kinda sitting.

Christian: Sure.

Christian: It's kind of bizarre and it might make more sense when there's just no light, but...

Ellen: Yeah. So that's something you have to think about when you're down at the bottom of the ocean. Vision doesn't work like it does up here on the surface. Right. Just being able to look around and see things doesn't, isn't necessarily going to help you. So they have to be a little bit more creative with their camouflage tactics.

Christian: Exactly.

Christian: So that's, that's pretty interesting.

Christian: Yeah. And the final category, aesthetics.

Christian: Oh boy.

Christian: So this is kind of self explanatory, but this is where we talk about what they look like. I'm giving what I consider to be a very generous score, 4 out of 10 for aesthetics.

Christian: Some wiggle room there.

Christian: And here's why. So the infamous picture of the blobfish, of Mr Blobby, it's not good, right? Just a pile of goo...

Christian: He's struggling.

Christian: And then he has a weird nose type structure, which is odd in fish, right?

Christian: The nose, like flops over his nose and he looks like, um...

Christian: Very Squidward-esque.

Christian: I was about to say Squidward!

Christian: Or the cartoons that Jukebox the Ghost likes to draw.

Ellen: Oh, Tommy Siegel's cartoon style where the nose flops over the mouth. I wonder if it was inspired by the blobfish.

Christian: Yeah, I don't know. And then it has a weird yellow mucusy bit in the corner of its mouth, also.

Christian: The boogers.

Christian: That's what it looks like. That's what it looks like. But here's what's actually going on in that picture. The blobfish in that picture, it looks the way it does because of damage it took from the rapid change in pressure.

Christian: Oh, it, it got hurt.

Christian: Yeah.

Christian: Okay.

Christian: So that is not what they look like in their natural habitat.

Christian: I would hope not.

Christian: So lots of fish have this problem where if they are pulled out of the water quickly from a deep depth, they don't have time to react to the change in pressure biologically. So it causes damage to their, to their bodies.

Ellen: This happens with humans too. Humans can take a lot of damage from a change in pressure, that happens too quickly. You can get the bends from it.

Christian: Yes. And actually we're going to talk about what's going on there.

Christian: Oh, okay.

Christian: So first of all, the blobfish is meant for a huge amount of pressure. So just being at the sea level pressure by itself, it causes, you know, its body to kind of swell and droop. Cause if you've ever seen a balloon, for example, a go higher, higher, higher and higher until it's like in a very thin atmosphere, it starts to get bigger, right?

Christian: Sure.

Christian: So that's from equalization of pressure. So when you have a pressure differential there, the natural thing to happen is it's trying to equalize itself. So when you have a balloon with a certain volume of, we'll say air inside of it, the pressure is equalized on the inside and the outside. So as that balloon moves into an area of less pressure, the amount of air that's inside the balloon doesn't change, but it wants to equalize.

Ellen: So the air pressure from the inside going out is now more than the pressure from the outside going in. So it's starting to...

Christian: It gets bigger.

Christian: Expand, right.

Christian: Yeah. So that, that's, that's the only option in that setting. Another would be to let gas out. But with the balloon example, it doesn't have that, that opportunity. So it just gets bigger. So eventually what will happen is the balloon just gets bigger and bigger until it pops. So that's usually what happens with weather balloons. Along that vein, that's what happens biologically with creatures that go from one pressure to the next. Now, it's not so violent as a explosion.

Ellen: I would hope not. God, I would hope not. I just thought of that little Mr. Blobby just like poppin like a balloon and yeah, getting that fish snot everywhere.

Christian: So that is known as barotrauma.

Ellen: Barotrauma.

Christian: Yes.

Christian: Oh, like, uh, like a barometer.

Christian: Yes.

Christian: That means pressure, then.

Christian: Yep. And then there's all sorts of different things that can fall under that. And also you reminded me the booger per se, tt's not actually that it is actually a parasitic copepod.

Ellen: A parasite!

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: Oh, interesting.

Christian: Yep, that unfortunately it was just positioned in the worst place ever.

Ellen: Oh Man! That poor little guy. Man, he had a parasite, he got taken up to the surface where he's not supposed to be, and he got deflated like a balloon...

Christian: Well not deflated, but more...

Ellen: Overinflated. Oh, man, that blobfish was having the worst day.

Christian: Yeah. Yeah. So let's talk about some of the things with barotrauma that fish has to deal with, so even fish that are fished out of waters of 30 feet deep and are pulled up too quickly. So these kinds of fish usually have air bladders or swim bladders. So a problem that can happen there is when they're pulled out from that depth through quickly, their swim bladder cannot compensate quick enough. So what it would normally do is it would release gas out of the swim bladder to compensate for that. But it can only do that so quickly. So if it's pulled out of the water very, very quickly, what will happen is the air bladder will expand just like the balloon in our example where it's trying to equalize the pressure.

Ellen: Oh no.

Christian: So here's the problem with that.

Ellen: I can think of some.

Christian: Um, it displaces its organs when this happens.

Ellen: Oh... That's bad.

Christian: So a fish that is suffering from this kind of barotrauma, you will see its eyes starting to bulge out, its stomach will come out of its mouth and then, um, the last thing that could happen is its intestines come out... Well, the other end.

Ellen: Okay, great.

Christian: Yes. Uh, so a lot of states actually have rules that, you know, if you're out in a boat and fishing, you have to have a device of some sort to relieve pressure in the fish for this scenario, if you plan on throwing it back.

Ellen: Really?

Christian: Yes. All it basically is, is a syringe. So you just pierce the fish into its swim bladder, releasing gases, and then hopefully it should all return to normal.

Ellen: How do you know where the swim bladder is and get the syringe into the, um... You know what, now that I think of it, I'm assuming this applies to people that are like professionals.

Christian: Yeah. These are usually people very used to fishing and it's, the specifics is kind of based on the species of fish. But I think in general it's all in the same general area. Of course, I'm sure it takes practice to not go too deep or hit the wrong areas, cause you could cause more damage to the fish that way. And again, that only applies if you're trying to throw the fish back. Cause if you don't do that, what will happen is that they will stay at the top of the water and they won't be able to descend.

Ellen: Well, they don't belong there.

Christian: Yeah. Uh, eventually their swim bladder might compensate, but what will more likely happen is something will eat it before it's able to do that.

Ellen: Yeah. Probably. You got some opportunistic little fishies swimming around in there.

Christian: So that's a form of barotrauma that's experienced by most fish. Now with a blobfish, it does not have a swim bladder. So that specific thing does not happen to them. However, their flesh is just... bleh, when it happens.

Ellen: Bless those poor babies.

Christian: Maybe in humans, uh, you mentioned the bends, which happens usually with scuba divers when they come back to the surface too quickly or when they're not doing the right things when they're doing that. So my understanding of it is when you are ascending back to the surface, you're supposed to breathe out, the opposite being holding your breath or trying to breathe in. So again, the exact same thing as the balloon, right? So you either need to let gas out or the container is going to try to compensate. In humans, that container is your lungs.

Ellen: Yeah, you don't want those overfilling.

Christian: Yep. Or I guess more to be more correct, it would be the diaphragm. And then by extension, your lungs.

Ellen: Yeah. You gotta be careful with that. I have never been scuba diving, but I know a lot of people that have been scuba diving and you do have to like control your ascent back up to the top to make sure that you don't do damage to your insides.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: And I understand it actually takes a while. Like if you're really, really deep down, it can take a long time for you to come back up to the top because you have to like come up, you have to like come up a little bit and then stop and wait and then come up a little bit more and stop and wait. So it's like you have to do it in phases so that your body isn't just letting everything out all at once.

Christian: Yep. So, yeah. Um, that's the story with Mr. Blobby, the unfortunate result of a parasite and barotrauma.

Ellen: I guess that's why he be like that.

Christian: Yep. Um, I do encourage folks to try and see what they look like in their natural habitat, not under the effects of barotrauma. Not too much better, but at least better than what we're used to.

Ellen: So was your aesthetic score based on Mr. Blobby and his unfortunate circumstance, or was it based on how they normally look?

Christian: It's how they normally look. They're still not a particularly aesthetically pleasing fish, but it's much better than the meme. And in terms of conservation status, I couldn't find one for this particular species, but other species in the family are listed as least concern.

Ellen: Okay.

Christian: And that's the blob fish.

Ellen: That was pretty good!

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: I learned a lot about deep sea fish in general as well through this, so thank you. That was well done.

Christian: No problem. All right, honey, what animal do you have for us this week?

Ellen: This week I'm going to be talking about the brown-throated three-toed sloth.

Christian: Woah that's a lot of adjectives.

Ellen: It's a long name. Yeah? The scientific name is Bradypus variegatus. Bradypus, I think, is pretty good.

Christian: Brad is short for Bradypus.

Ellen: Yeah. So every time- a lot of people mistakenly think that the name Brad is short for like Bradley or something, it's actually Bradypus. So I'm getting my information on this animal from National Geographic, Live Science, Animal Diversity Web and slothssanctuary.com which is the website for the sloth sanctuary in Costa Rica.

Christian: Oh okay.

Ellen: Yup. There's a big sloth sanctuary in Costa Rica that I've been following on social media for 10 years. So they have a really active and great social media presence. They're always posting cute sloth pictures. Yeah, so I was excited to talk about the sloth. Now, there is the three-toed sloth, of which there are a few different species, and then there are the two-toed sloths, which have a few different species as well.

Christian: Cool.

Ellen: They're very different from each other. They are both sloths, yes, and they have some things in common but there are pretty big differences between them in a lot of different areas. Like very different behavior, different diets and they look different too. Immediately like, identifiable as very different from each other.

Christian: And of course, a 50% increase in number of toes.

Ellen: Is that... Yeah, I guess. I don't math good. I'm sorry. 50%, sure.

Christian: From two to three at least.

Ellen: Yes. So yeah, if you've never seen a sloth before, this is an arboreal mammal. They live in the trees. They have very long forearms. Their forearms are twice as long as their back legs.

Christian: Wow.

Ellen: So they have very long forearms, kind of short back legs. At the end of each of their limbs are three long, sharp claws. They're very, very long. They don't have like fingers per se. They just have these claws. They are covered in a wirey gray or brown fur and they have a really small, what I would describe as a compact face where they have a really short nose and they have wide-set eyes and their eyes are framed by these black bands. They kind of look like, almost like a raccoon's bands. How they go off to the side of the face.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: Yeah, so that's about what they look like. They're not that big. This particular species of three toed sloth is about two feet long from head to tail. I think they have a tail, but you can't really see it. If they do have one. It's very, very short and you c,an't see it.

Christian: It's a little nubby.

Ellen: Yeah, just a little nub. So it's a little guy. Oh, two feet that is 60 centimeters or, I don't know, maybe chicken and a half, two chickens maybe.

Christian: Here we go.

Ellen: You thought I forgot.

Christian: Yeah. Hoped, I suppose.

Ellen: I'm back on that. They are, they get up to about 14 pounds, which is about 6.5 kilograms. You can think of this as about Puppy sized. That's our dog by the way. Not like a puppy, like our dog named puppy.

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: So about the size of our dog. You can find these sloths in the tropical forest of central and South America, kind of all over the place. They have a pretty wide range where you can find them. Their taxonomic order is called Pilosa, which we have actually talked about before when we talked about the tamandua. They're in the same order as them.

Christian: I can see that, with their lil... hands.

Ellen: Yeah, with the claw hands. Yeah. So, this three toed-sloths is one of four species of three-toed sloths,-and there are also two species of two toed sloths. But the other members of the Pilosa family include anteaters and tamanduas. Yup. If you want to learn more about the tamandua, you can go back and listen to episode 12. So yeah, that's just a little bit of background information for the sloth. So, effectiveness for the three-toed sloth. This was- this surprised me because I picked the sloth thinking I was going to have something to dunk on, and thinking I was going to be able to just give it a trash effectiveness score. I gave it a 6 out of 10. My intention here is to shift the narrative on the sloth, because I think that they get a lot of negativity because people aren't interpreting what they do, maybe not according to what the sloths are really going for. That will make sense in a second.

Christian: Sure, sure.

Ellen: Of course, the sloth is named for how slow they are, right. That's the name, sloth.

Christian: Se, I was going to ask, did the name come first or did the animal?

Ellen: The word sloth was already like used for the sin of sloth, being like very slow and lazy.

Christian: Makes sense.

Ellen: Yeah. So the sloth they is named for how slow they are. Even in other languages, give it names that mean like slow or like one who is lazy or something like that. So their top speed is only around .15 miles per hour, or .24 kilometers per hour. They're incredibly slow and by the way, that's like, as fast as they get. That's like, they're being attacked and they're trying to like flee from a predator. That's still their top speed. They are just incredibly slow and they just can't go any faster than that. Like they literally do not have the muscular capability to go faster than that.

Christian: Oh well.

Ellen: So they're so slow. In fact, that algae and fungi grow in their fur and bugs nest in it. So the sloth's fur is just one big living ecosystem. They have a whole world growing in their fur. So a lot of times when you see a sloth, I mentioned that their fur is gray or brown, when you see them in the wild, they're green. And that's not because of their fur. It's because of the plants growing in their fur.

Christian: Nice.

Ellen: Yeah, it's really cool. Even their metabolism is really, really slow. So they, all they eat is like, twigs and leaves and stuff. Like very, very fibrous and not very nutritionally dense food. It can take them up to an entire month to digest one meal.

Christian: Wow.

Ellen: Yeah. It takes them so incredibly long to digest their food. Their metabolism is just painfully slow and it's kind of thought that their lifestyle has become so slow-paced in response to how low calorie and low nutrition their diet is. Because they're not getting a lot of energy input from their food, so they have a very slow metabolism and just kind of like, slow everything because of that. We talked about this a little bit with a panda, right?

Christian: Yes, yes.

Ellen: So their body has kind of adjusted to adapt to their terrible diet.

Christian: So much so they were like, uhhh I'm not gonna go up this hill. I guess I live somewhere else now. Bye.

Ellen: In the same vein. So, what's actually kind of interesting about their metabolism is that they can slow their metabolism all the way to a complete halt when the temperature around them increases. So if it gets too hot around them, they can completely shut their metabolism down and go into like, something similar to a state of torpor because it prevents them from wasting energy and overheating when it gets too hot.

Christian: As a Floridian, I can relate to this.

Ellen: Yes, we also nap when it's too hot.

Christian: I'm just gonna out sleep the weather.

Ellen: Maybe when I wake up, the air won't be on fire. We could try that. Their just painful slowness makes people often question why are they not extinct? How have they not been completely hunted into eradication? What's the deal? They cannot do anything. So it's true that they're pretty defenseless when they're being hunted by a predator. They cannot fight back because of how slow they are. They can fight back if it's like something small. There's a video of a very, very young harpy eagle trying to take a sloth and it actually like takes a couple of swings with its claws and the harpy, the eagle leaves it alone. Now that being said, this is a baby harpy eagle, right? If it had been an adult, it probably wouldn't have been any contest.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: But, so here's the thing, they're up against jungle predators, like the harpy eagle and like the jaguar and the puma and things like that that definitely have the agility game completely cornered. They are not going to outrun that. Like they, I feel like they've kind of, evolutionarily speaking, they've like realized that they're not going to outrun those predators. So they've taken a different approach. So rather than thinking of their slow speed and their just super slowed down lifestyle as something like laziness or ineffectiveness, I want to think of that as stealth.

Christian: Ah!

Ellen: It's a stealth mechanism. So they're so incredibly slow that it's a form of camouflage. They blend in with the tree branches around them just by being so incredibly slow that you can't see them move. Because a lot of their predators have very good vision and are looking for things moving around in the trees.

Christian: That's true.

Ellen: So they move around very slowly so the predators don't even see them in the first place. So they don't have to run from the predator cause the predator doesn't see them. So it's just, it's just a different tactic. Rather than evasion, they're evading by stealth by not being detected. So actually that- what I mentioned earlier about algae growing in their fur, that's actually a symbiotic relationship between them and the algae. So that flora growing in their fur makes them green, that improves their camouflage against canopy foliage.

Christian: Kinda like a built in Ghillie suit.

Ellen: *whispers* What's a ghillie suit?

Christian: Oh, it's a military thing. You probably see it on movies and stuff. Like a sniper has like the suit on that has a bunch of rags and leaves and stuff.

Ellen: Oh, sure, sure, sure, sure, sure.

Christian: That's a Ghillie suit.

Ellen: Okay. All right. Yes, it's that, yeah. They have just plants growing in their fur, so it makes them blend in a lot better with the trees.

Christian: And it's probably the same plants that are growing on the trees.

Ellen: It's mostly like algae and you know, little little bits of fungus and stuff. So yeah, it just makes them look like the surrounding foliage. So the next thing that I want to talk about, other than like their incredible camouflage that really goes along very, very well with how slowly they move is you might not look at them and think that they're strong, but they're incredibly strong.

Christian: Really?

Ellen: Yes. So they hang from tree branches using their really, really long claws, with their arms being twice as long as their legs and their very strong grip. They often will stay gripped to the tree even after they have died.

Christian: Whoa.

Ellen: They will stay hanging onto the tree even after they're dead. So the reason that they have such a strong grip is because their muscles are largely made of these fibers called slow twitch fibers that allow them to sustain exertion for a very, very long time without using a lot of energy. So in order to think about how strong they have to be, think if you have, for example, a gymnast who is trying to move from maybe one bar to another bar nearby. But having to do that over like 30 minutes.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: And having to hang from one arm from, you know, holding up their entire body weight with one arm for like 30 minutes. Right? You start shaking, you, you know your muscles give out and you fall. The sloth will just chill there. Like the sloth can hold its body up with its arms and just very, very slowly move from one branch to another like it's nothing. They can hold their whole body up, no problem..

Christian: That's intense.

Ellen: They're extremely strong. It makes sense when you think about it because since they do move so slowly, they have to be able to hold themselves up for much longer periods of time than, for example, a monkey that's like jumping from one tree to another or maybe they're swinging from a branch or something like that. They don't have to be holding themselves up for very long because they're very quickly jumping from one place to another. But the sloth is just, through sheer power is climbing very, very slowly from one place to another.

Christian: What if it's, what if it goes really slow just to flex on all the animals in the forest? Like, yeah, this isn't nothing, I'm just gonna...

Ellen: It's a power move?

Christian: I'm going to take three days to travel um, uh, like 500 feet. But that's okay.

Ellen: They sleep a lot. They don't sleep as much as people once thought they did. It was once thought that they slept up to 20 hours a day, which in captivity sometimes they do. But in the wild it's actually closer to like 9. They don't sleep too much more than humans too. They do sleep a lot, but not as much as we thought they did.

Christian: I mean, when you go that slow, you have to make good use of your time.

Ellen: That's literally what they're all about. Like their entire physical build is meant to completely optimize their energy conservation. Like their entire goal with existing is to be as thrifty as they possibly can with the very little energy that they have. Cause they're getting so little energy from their diet. Right? They have to be very sparing with how they're using their energy. Yeah. But they're very good at that because their types of muscles are just very, very good at sustaining exertion without having to burn a lot of energy, which is like, I hadn't ever thought of it in those terms. I just thought they were being slow and lazy just cause they didn't feel like it. So, due to the fact that their muscles do move so slowly, they actually can't shiver to warm themselves up. Like their muscles can't like, twitch or shiver to increase their body temperature, so they actually can't thermoregulate like other mammals can. They have to sunbathe to maintain their body temperature, so they have to like go up to the top of the tree and find a good spot to bask in the sun to keep their temperature up. So unfortunately that puts them directly in the line of sight for harpy eagles who have very, very keen eyesight and they are very, very fast and very big and strong. So kind of the hardest possible counter to the sloth. Like you can look it up on YouTube. I spent like, all day yesterday watching videos of harpy eagles just plucking these sloths right out of the tree like it is nothing. Like they just, they swoop in and like, without even stopping, they just swoop in, grab the sloth and then fly right off with it. Yeah. So unfortunately they put themselves in a position where they're very vulnerable to that when they have to sunbathe. So that was one of my deductions for their effectiveness.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: They are surprisingly very good swimmers. They're good at swimming, which is weird. They actually travel much more quickly in the water than they do on land and sometimes, since they are faster in the water, sometimes they'll drop down directly into the water from the tree because it's faster for them to swim. They are naturally buoyant. They float just naturally.

Christian: The fur probably helps.

Ellen: They have like a downy undercoat that probably traps a lot of air, but actually the biggest factor to their buoyancy is the fact that since they do eat mostly just leaves and twigs, their body produces a lot of gas, so they're full of gas that keeps them afloat. That's not a joke. I'm not kidding.

Christian: So what you're telling me...

Ellen: Yes.

Christian: They're fart boats.

Ellen: Yes. Technically speaking, yes, it's a fart boat. They also, something that is really kind of interesting and weird about them is that most mammals have 7 cervical vertebrae. So neck bones, most of us have seven. We have seven drafts up, seven. Most of us have seven. The sloth has nine cervical vertebrae. And the significance of this is that it allows them to rotate their head like an owl up to up to 300 degrees.

Christian: I don't like that.

Ellen: So they can- well, so this goes back, this ties back into them conserving energy. This lets them have a very wide range of vision without having to adjust their whole body position. So without having to exert all of their muscles into turning around, they can just turn their head and see. Now the problem with this, though, is that they have very poor eyesight. They can't see very good at all. They really can't. I saw that their eyesight works best in low light, but they're like equal parts diurnal and nocturnal. So like they're still active during the daytime. They just, they can't see real good. And also another thing to think about is that like, yeah, they can see threats coming from any angle, but what are they going to do? Run? Like what do you do? Their kind of primary defense mechanism is just staying still. So, I guess if they saw something that they perceived as a threat, they would know just to not move until it's gone. But so they at least have a little bit of threat detection possibility.

Christian: No real plan B there though.

Ellen: That's kind of my whole thing that I took off four points for their effectiveness for, is that they have a pretty good strategy for not being hunted. But man, I mean once a predator identifies that they're there, like once they are detected, it's just game over. There's so little they can do about it.

Christian: They could try being not tasty.

Ellen: I mean I would imagine they're probably not.

Christian: I mean if things are eating them.

Ellen: Their fur is full of mushrooms, so I'm gonna say gross. Nasty.

Christian: That could be a plus for some.

Ellen: For you, I'm sure. So on land they are worthless. Completely pitiful. Their little back legs are so short and weak that they cannot walk at all. They have to use their front claws to drag themselves forward in just a very sad crawl. It's very bad. They actually do have to come down to land to use the bathroom. So about once or twice a week they have to come down to the ground to use the bathroom.

Christian: That's unfortunate.

Ellen: Yes, and so at this point they are just completely easy pickings for literally anything bigger than them that wants to eat them. Like puma, jaguar doesn't matter. They can just scoop them right up right off the ground.

Christian: It's too bad they don't do the bat tactic of theirs, kind of hanging down and doing your business.

Ellen: It's like, clearly that's an option. Y'all. Figure it out. I did see something that said that sloths do this, they go to the bathroom, they go down to the ground to use the bathroom in order to leave their scent markings there. So to communicate to the other sloths via scent like where they are, and this is especially useful for females when they're in heat and ready to mate, that they will do this a lot. That at that point when they're in heat, they will actually go down to use the bathroom every day just to kind of get their scent out there so that other sloths will smell it and know. Yeah. Really my biggest deductions here were the complete defenselessness that they have, but I did want to give them a lot of points for the fact that they have really just completely overhauled their entire body to be optimized for stealth.

Christian: Yeah, for sure.

Ellen: So I figured that they deserved a lot of credit for that. So, moving on to ingenuity, this is where the sloths is driving the struggle bus. The sloth has really fallen behind here. I gave it a 4 out of 10 for ingenuity.

Christian: Alright.

Ellen: Which is surprising for a mammal. I feel like mammals tend to be pretty clever, but so I did give them 4 points though. So I'm going to start with the positives because that's how I am. Something that's interesting is that even though their habitat has so much biological diversity, like just think of how many types of plants and trees that there are in the rainforest, there's just so many, even though there's so much biological diversity, individual sloths have different preferences for different types of trees. Even different slots of the same species will only have maybe like eight or nine different types of trees that they like. So this varies among individuals and they're particularly picky about what types of trees they will visit and what types of foliage they will eat. But this serves a purpose. This allows multiple sloths to share habitat ranges without fighting over resources so they can share the same territory range without worrying like, well he's in my tree eating my leaves. Because it's like he doesn't want your leaves cause he likes a different type of leaf. So I thought that was pretty cool. That's a pretty good way of making the most of their space.

Christian: What would a sloth fight even look like?

Ellen: It's not great. Have you ever seen like battle bots?

Christian: I think so?

Ellen: Have you ever seen like really bad battlebots?

Christian: Just kind of punch themselves.

Ellen: Maybe like a battlebot that has like these three knives attached to it, but the motor on it is kind of busted or it has low battery or something. So the knives are just kind of like slowly rotating towards each other. It's not great. Another thing that I thought was pretty clever of them is that when they do go to the ground to use the bathroom, they move away from where they typically like to hang out. So this prevents predators from being able to track them based on the scent they leave behind from their waste. So they do kind of leave their hangout zone to go to the bathroom.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: They have a very, very detailed and thorough mental map of their territory. So they know exactly where every little tree, every little plant, they know where everything is, completely have the whole thing memorized. So they do it like that because since they are trying to conserve as much energy as they can, they have to know the best possible way to get from point A to point B. They have to know which, what is the path of least resistance for them. How can they get there without, you know, wasting four days getting there when they could have only got there in one. Cause they're so slow, right? Like the tiniest little detour takes like six hours out of their day.

Christian: It's the classic shortest path problem.

Ellen: Yep. They're pretty good at knowing their way around their territory. However, their improvisational ability is severely lacking. So since they do have such a detailed memory map of their territory, if anything about that territory changes, they're completely stumped and they have no idea what to do. They're just completely at a loss. They have no idea. This is a quote I would like to drop in. This is from a mental floss article titled "The Human Who Teaches Orphan Sloths How to be Wild Animals" by author Jen Pinkowski on April 29th of 2017, and this is about the zoologist, Becky cliff. So, "Cliffe has attempted to measure [sloth intelligence]. “It didn’t go well,” she admits. They placed a three-toed sloth in an outdoor tree maze. It didn’t move. At all. “We gave up in the end. When sloths aren’t sure what’s going on or where they are, they sit still. That’s their defense mechanism.” Cliffe says, “I don’t think they’re intelligent in the way you think a monkey or a dog is intelligent, but they’re smart in their own way in their mental maps and their memory.” In her six years of tracking, she could predict which branch of which tree they’d be on during a given day. “But if you cut that tree down, they’d be stumped. I think they’re smart in the ways they need to be, but beyond that, there’s not much there.” So direct quote from zoologist studying sloths, not much there. So that's my 4 out of 10 for their ingenuity. This brings us to aesthetics. I gave them a pretty solid 6 out of 10. Not Great. Um, especially when you compare them to the two-toed sloth that is much cuter. The two toed sloth is the one that has kind of like a little piggy face.

Christian: Is the one that you see in like... Let me think, how about Zootopia?

Ellen: No, actually the three-toed sloths is the one working the DMV in Zootopia? That's a three toed slot. The two toed sloth is the one that has kind of a little, I think of it as a little pig face. The three toed sloth I think is significantly less cute than the two toed sloth. But I still gave it a 6 out of 10 cause it's still kind of cute. They had- I think the black bands around their eyes give them kind of a sad expression, which you know, I'm kind of a sucker for sad eyes. I think that's cute. Um, I think they look like a cuddly Sasquatch. It's just what they look like, with the mattered for and the long arms and stuff. It's a cuddly Sasquatch.

Christian: Much easier to take a picture of.

Ellen: That's for sure. Got those high res jpegs. They actually are super like cuddly, like cuddling and touching each other as like an important part of their development. And since they do like, need to be clinging to trees and stuff, when sloths are kept in captivity a lot of times like baby sloths and stuff, they'll provide stuffed animals and things for the sloths to cuddle. Yeah cause cuddling is very important to them. So that's my 6 out of 10 for their aesthetics.

Christian: Very cute.

Ellen: I'm going to wrap up with a couple of final little miscellaneous info. Their conservation status is of least concern.

Christian: That's surprising.

Ellen: They are fine. Of course being arboreal, they are threatened by the loss of habitat due to deforestation, but all things considered, their population numbers are currently doing fine.

Christian: Alright!

Ellen: I was surprised at that because my expectation going into this was that they were terrible and I was thinking how could they possibly, how could they possibly be thriving? Like how could they be successful at all?

Christian: I guess the stealth thing really works.

Ellen: It works so good. Do you want to know how good it works?

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: Guess their lifespan in the wild.

Christian: I 'm gonna guess... 40 years.

Ellen: 30 to 40 years.

Christian: DANG.

Ellen: 30 to 40 years. Yeah. 30 to 40 years of not getting eaten by jaguars by just being so darn slow. So right, Like I feel like people aren't giving them enough credit for their stealth capabilities because people are thinking of how slow they are and comparing that to the evasive tactics of different animals. Right? Things like monkeys or deer or something like that, like their strat is to as fast as they can to get away from predators, but the sloth has really dialed in to just not being hunted in the first place. And it's working out great for them.

Christian: Kind of like turtles, right? Like they can be slow because they have a very good defense.

Ellen: Yeah. It's like you don't need to be fast at that point. But so that's why I gave them a 6 out of 10 for their effectiveness because I feel like that was what they were trying to do, what their sort of intention was with the way they developed was they were trying to be sneaky. So, I mean you can't argue with results.

Christian: For sure.

Ellen: Least concern?

Christian: In a rain forest? Yeah.

Ellen: And with that kind of lifespan? That's insane. You can't argue with that. They're doing great. They're doing good at what they're doing. Of course, I had to give them some knocks for being otherwise entirely defenseless. There are videos on youtube of harpy, eagles, jaguars, pumas, all those sorts of things, just kind of snatchin sloths right up. So, it's really pitiful to watch. If you just watch those, you think, oh my gosh, the sloth is the worst. It's so terrible. How are they even still alive? But...

Christian: Question.

Ellen: Yeah.

Christian: Earlier you mentioned that they can die still holding onto a tree. Are there places where there are like, sloths skeletons just kind of...

Ellen: I would have to guess that at the point where they die holding onto a tree, they probably at that point are then eaten by scavengers.

Christian: That's true.

Ellen: Right? Probably like, bugs will eat them, like some sort of scavenger, will probably eat them. Like once they start to decompose, right? Probably things will come by and eat them at that point. Things die in the jungle all the time and you don't normally see skeletons just laying around. Like nature has a way of reclaiming what's hers.

Christian: For sure.

Ellen: Yeah. So that's the sloth.

Christian: Alright. Thanks honey, that was very informative.

Ellen: Not our, uh, most athletic animal yet, but has some interesting adaptations.

Christian: He's careful and stealthy.

Ellen: Yes, I can, I can vibe with that. It's a good animal. Alright, well that's all we had for this week. I'd like to thank our listeners who have been tuning in every week and letting us know what you thought and also telling your friends about us. We've been seeing a lot of growth and it's been going really, really well. So we're very thankful for that. You can connect with us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. Just search the title of our show and you'll find us. I would like to gently beg that if you use Facebook, please join the group.

Christian: Oh yes! We got a new group!

Ellen: We have a brand new Facebook group and it is called Just the Zoo of Us: Official Friend Squad, and it is so much fun. And we share, um, just kind of any animal related content that stumbles across our news feeds, which I follow like 86 different zoos and aquariums, so my news feed is pretty much mostly just animal stuff, but so yeah, that's where we're hanging out with our listeners and followers and stuff. So, so come join us and hang out on our Facebook.

Christian: Yeah!

Ellen: If you have an animal species you'd like to hear us review, you can submit those to us either on social media or at thezooofus@gmail.com a transcript of this episode will be made available at justthezooofus.home.blog, I've been slacking a little bit on the transcripts because they are very difficult to make and they take a lot of time, but I'm still working on it. But we're getting all those up.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: And our last little note, I'd like to thank Louie Zong for the use of his song Adventuring off of his album. Bee Sides.

Christian: Yup. I wake up to that song sometimes in my head.

Ellen: It's a good one to wake up to.

Christian: It is! Like, alright, time to get up!

Ellen: It sets a good little, it sets a good mood for the day. Put's a little spring in your step.

Christian: Right?

Ellen: But check out all of his other work too. He's, he's the best and everything he does is great and perfect.

Christian: Yep.

Ellen: Alright, well that's all I had for this week.

Christian: It's good stuff, honey.

Ellen: Thanks, you too. I love you.

Christian: I love you!

Ellen: Bye!

Christian: Bye everyone.

13: Aye-aye & Raven

Ellen: Hey there, this is Ellen Weatherford.

Christian: And Christian Weatherford.

Ellen: And you are listening to Just the Zoo of Us, an animal review podcast where we take your favorite animal species and review them and rate them out of 10 in the categories of effectiveness, ingenuity and of course aesthetics. Christian and I are not zoological experts, we're just enthusiasts. We do a lot of research and we try our best to make sure we're giving you information from trustworthy sources.

Christian: Only the trustiest.

Ellen: Only the trustiest.

Christian: And if we do lead you astray, it'll probably be funny. So there's that.

Ellen: So you're welcome. Honestly, you're welcome. Uh, before we get into it, I wanted to give a quick shout out to our podcast buddies over at the Lukky Go Show. They did a really cool segment, a homage to Just the Zoo of Us where they did their own little review of the hippopotamus and it was really delightful and I enjoyed listening to it and they had some really kind words for our show. So go check them out. They are a family-run, actual play tabletop RPG podcast and they are playing a homebrew campaign basically with mechanics based on the Monster of the Week a game system. But they're really cute, so go check them out. If that sounds like something you'd be interested in. All right babe. I think you went first last week. Am I correct?

Christian: I think that is correct.

Ellen: Okay. So it's my turn to go first this week.

Christian: What we got?

Ellen: So this is our 13th episode.

Christian: Oh?

Ellen: The number 13 in many western cultures is perceived as an unlucky number. It is a number of evil. It is a superstitious number.

Christian: It was a, an argument made by Gandalf in the Hobbit. He was like, "Hey, uh, you could leave Bilbo behind, but then you'd only have 13." and then they're like, "ah, you're right. Let's do it."

Ellen: Is that... True? Is that real?

Christian: Basically. Basically they could have been like, "that's superstitious, Gandalf, we're gona go." End of book.

Ellen: Interesting. So yeah, due to the fact that 13 is considered an unlucky number and it's heavily tied with superstition, I thought it would be cool for us to do an episode about two animals that have been tied to superstition and omens of evil. Yeah, so my animal that I've got is the aye-aye!

Christian: What is that, Ellen?

Ellen: The aye-aye's scientific name is Daubentonia Madagascariensis.

Christian: Whoa.

Ellen: That's a long one, huh?

Christian: That's mouthful.

Ellen: Yeah. The aye-aye does fit the theme of this week, but it had been previously requested by our friend Dustin Barnett.

Christian: Very good.

Ellen: Thank you, Dustin for requesting this animal. We're just now getting around to it, but we felt like it would fit the theme really well.

Christian: For sure.

Ellen: So before I get into it, I will let you guys know that the information I've got here, I got mostly from the Duke Lemur Center at the Duke University in North Carolina where they have very many of these little aye-ayes. There aren't very many aye-ayes in captivity., there's only about 50 in the world and the Duke Lemur Center has 9 of them.

Christian: Wow.

Ellen: Yes. So they have a lot of information on these dudes. So I'm going to introduce you to our friend the aye-aye. This is a little critter that lives in the trees. It has giant round bug eyes. It has huge bat shaped ears. It has skinny clawed fingers, a long bushy tail, and wiry dark brown or black fur with a gray or white face. So that's what it looks like, if you've never seen one. I'm going to ask you, what type of animal do you think it is? What family of animals do you think it is?

Christian: Ummm... Maybe lemurs?

Ellen: You got it! Yeah. It's an a Lemur family. The taxonomic super family is called Lemuroidea. So it belongs to the family of Lemurs...

Christian: I gotta come clean.

Ellen: Okay. Did you look it up before?

Christian: A moment ago, you mentioned the Duke... something about lemurs.

Ellen: Oh, shoot.

Christian: So I was like, they must be related in some way!

Ellen: Darn. I spoiled it. So they belong to the family of Lemurs. Now lemurs are pretty interesting because they belong to a group of primate species called Prosimians. So these evolved from the same common ancestors as today's monkeys, apes and humans, but they split off earlier. They're still in the primate group, but their evolution split off long before ours did. So of course other relatives to the aye-aye are lemurs and sifakas.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: So those are their little buds. This is actually, it's a little guy, but he's bigger than other nocturnal primates. So they are 14 to 17 inches, or 35 to 43 centimeters. Their tail adds another up to 2 feet. It's a long tail- or 60 centimeters.

Christian: So like, two or three chickens.

Ellen: It's a couple chickens. Yeah. You're so you're going to find these in forests in Madagascar and that's it. Just Madagascar. I'm going to start our rating with effectiveness, which we define as how good the animal is at doing the thing it's trying to do. You can think of this as physical adaptations that the animal has that make it better at doing its thing. Now for the aye-aye, the effectiveness and the ingenuity are closely tied together. And I'll explain why that is. But for effectiveness, I give the aye-aye and 9 out of 10.

Christian: Woah.

Ellen: The aye-aye is highly specialized to use a very unique hunting technique. And this technique is called percussive foraging. Percussive. So this makes sense when you look at their hands, they have these long, skinny fingers with claws on the ends, but particularly their middle finger is much longer and much skinnier than the other fingers. It looks like a twig.

Christian: Okay...

Ellen: There's nothing to it. It's just bone and skin, like... It's very, very skinny. So the reason they have that finger like that, they use that finger to tap on branches. So as they're climbing through the trees and as they're navigating along the way, they're tap, tap, tap, tap, tapping on the branches and they're holding their giant enormous bat ear up to the branch and they're listening very closely to the sound that the tapping makes on the branch. When they hear an echo, they know that the branch is hollow. So there are insects tunneling through that branch. This is like echolocation, basically.

Christian: Right.

Ellen: They know that there are insects tunneling through the branch, so once they hear a spot where the branch is hollow, they use their really, really sharp teeth to rip away the bark and reveal the larvae that are inside. They eat the larvae of the bugs and then they can use that same skinny tapping finger to, kind of like a pipe cleaner, to shimmy it down into the hole that the insects made in the branch and dig around. And then the hook shaped claw at the end of the finger is used to scoop the larvae out.

Christian: I'm already imagining something very creepy in terms of what this thing looks like.

Ellen: Oh, it's horrifying, yes. Yes, it's very creepy. So it's because it does look very skeletal, right? It's very creepy. So this hunting method of like tapping the wood and listening to it, to listen to hear if there's bugs inside, this is actually- another animal that uses this percussive hunting technique are woodpeckers. But there are no woodpeckers in Madagascar, so the aye-aye doesn't have any competition there. But that's really interesting to see that a bird and a primate evolved the same hunting tactic, even though there's none of them in that area. They don't share the same area, but they both kind of figured out the same method of finding insect larvae.

Christian: So I know when woodpeckers do it, it's very loud. How loud is it when the aye-aye does it?

Ellen: I've seen a video of it, it's not very loud.

Christian: Okay. Which, I guess that makes sense that they have to put their head up against it, with their ear?

Ellen: Yeah, they're listening very closely.

Christian: Whereas with the Woodpecker, it's just so loud...

Ellen: The woodpecker is just throwing its face at the tree over and over again. But so they're also using their fingers to feel the branch, to feel like the vibrations from the tapping, but their sense of hearing is very, very, very acute because of their ears are so big. So they're mostly listening, but they're also feeling for vibrations in the branch.

Christian: I guess that gives them a stealth type of advantage, yeah? Because they can be searching for food and not really giving away their position.

Ellen: Yeah. There are some things in that area that will hunt them. There's like fossas and other predators around there that will prey on aye-ayes, but it's not a huge threat to them.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: So they also use that creepy finger for scooping out fruit. They like to eat coconuts and mangoes and stuff like that. They're actually omnivorous. So they'll eat not only bug larvae, but they also eat fruits, nuts, nectar, stuff like that. They'll kinda eat, you know, whatever they can get. Um, so another thing that's really interesting about that creepy finger is that thermal imaging has shown that the aye-aye's middle finger goes completely cold while they're not actively using it. So like, on like a heat sensing video, that middle finger is black. Like no heat. Nothing. Showing that blood flow blood is not flowing to the finger while they're not using it. So when they use it, when they're foraging, like when they're tap tap tapping and stuff, it warms up and it fills with blood.

New Speaker: Huh...

Ellen: Yeah. So that kind of implies that blood flow can be deployed and throttled to that finger at will. People haven't really been able to figure out just quite yet whether it's like a mechanical thing because they curl their finger in when they're not using it, and kind of like when you fold a hose, water doesn't flow through it. Like it could be that, or it could be that like the aye-aye can control blood flow to it somehow, like by like constricting the arteries or something. Haven't really figured that part out yet, but it is interesting. So yeah, the aye-aye kind of has this really, really neat tool built into their hand, so that's really cool. I thought that was neat.

Christian: You know what they could also use it for?

Ellen: What?

Christian: Picking their nose.

Ellen: I guess! So what... What I'm not crazy about with the aye-aye, in other lemurs, they have a cute sort of like, puppy shaped face. Theirs is like waaaaay too similar to human face. Theirs is like right in that uncanny valley. Their nose is not long enough to look like a cute lemur face. It's really unsettling. Don't worry. I'm going to circle back to that in the aesthetics section.

Christian: Yay.

Ellen: We have some things to talk about there. So I wanted to wrap up effectiveness by talking about their teeth. So the incisors of the aye-aye are pretty important for digging out their larval prey. So those teeth never stop growing. They grow continuously, they just grow and grow and grow. This is how rodents do, this is how rodent teeth will grow continually. So this actually caused aye-ayes to be misclassified by some scientists as rodents for a while when they were first discovered. Actually until pretty recently, like taxonomy for the aye-aye has been a little bit up for debate. So, that was my 9 out of 10 for effectiveness for the aye-aye.

Christian: Cool!

Ellen: It's pretty good. Like I said before, ingenuity is tied pretty closely with effectiveness here. I gave them an 8 out of 10 for ingenuity. We define ingenuity at how clever the animal is at coming up with solutions to the problems that faces in its life, so I gave them an 8 out of 10 because I was thinking, I was like, they're not really using tools, but they've kind of made their own tool and they're really good at that. Because it takes some cleverness to be able to figure out, oh, when I make this sound, if I listen, I can listen to the sound it makes back and that'll tell me where my prey is.

Christian: Right.

Ellen: So, you know, I felt like that was just really closely tied to the use of their tapping finger. And there have been some studies showing that they have the capacity to learn how to use tools. So they've been found to use like twigs and vines, but they kind of do it through trial and error. They don't naturally like, seek out tools to use. Not a whole lot is known about their behavior in the wild cause they're really rare and they're, they're nocturnal. And there hasn't been a lot of research done on them in Madagascar. But in more recent years, more resources are starting to be dedicated to researching the aye-aye. So we're starting to learn a little bit more about them. So that's my 8 out of 10 for ingenuity. They're very clever at using their tapping fingers to find their prey. And I think that that itself requires some thinking power.

Christian: Yeah!

Ellen: I thought that that in itself warranted a pretty good ingenuity score.

Christian: Yeah. A pro strat, if you will.

Ellen: It's very- yeah, it's great. Now. Okay, so we're at the aesthetic section and there's a lot going on here. This is a situation. I gave the aye-aye 2 out of 10 for aesthetics.

Christian: Oh, man.

Ellen: I'm so sorry. I've put them with the ranks of the goblin shark.

Christian: Oh, no...

Ellen: And when you see them, you see why. They look like a goblin. They really do. So the aye-aye is just, it's a whole entire head to toe hot mess. I think it looks like an electrified possum that has mange and also anxiety. It's got those bug eyes that like, just stick right out of the head so it looks terrified at all times, and the hair is sticking straight up and it just, it looks like it's stressed out. The skeleton hands really aren't helping either. You just like, stick some creepy claw hands on them and that just makes the whole thing worse. And you know, when we've talked about particularly um, aesthetically unsuccessful animals like the goblin shark and the shoebill, we have given them points for looking like the thing they're supposed to be and being identifiable as that thing. I cannot say this for the aye-aye. I cannot say that it looks like a lemur cause you have to kind of think about it. You have to be like, is it though? Is it?

Christian: Some theater of the mind there.

Ellen: There's some implications going on. So yeah, the aye-aye kind of has it rough in the looks department. Actually, its appearance has factored into its success as a species. Its appearance is kind of playing a role in its conservation status.

New Speaker: Uh oh.

Ellen: Yeah. So the aye-aye is endangered.

New Speaker: Okay...

Ellen: Aye-ayes are often killed on site by some groups of native people in Madagascar. So there's a couple of reasons for this, one of them being that they're known to be pests. Like they won't hesitate to read a village and eat all of their crops. They'll like, get into a crop supply and eat all of their like fruit or something like that.

New Speaker: Okay... This little thing?

Ellen: Yeah. I mean if they find a crop supply, they're gonna, they're gonna have a field day with it.

New Speaker: But they're not that big.

Ellen: No, they're not that big. But they can still put away some- the point being they will eat your fruit.

New Speaker: Sure.

Ellen: But another reason that people don't really love seeing them around is that their deeply unsettling appearance is perceived by a lot of people as an omen of evil. So if one is spotted in or near a village, the presence of an aye-aye dooms a village to a curse of bad luck.

Christian: Oh...

Ellen: Yeah. Often being associated with like an approaching death or something like something bad will happen if you see an aye-aye in or near your village. There have even been stories of some people uprooting and moving an entire village because they saw an aye-aye there.

New Speaker: That's... intense.

Ellen: Yeah. They like, they were like, well, this was nice while we had it I guess.

New Speaker: It's the aye-aye's village now.

Ellen: Yeah. So, a big hassle there. So a lot of people kind of have some negative perceptions of the aye-aye and will kill them. And they're also threatened by, you know, the whole deforestation thing going on in Madagascar.

New Speaker: Sure.

Ellen: There is a lot of deforestation going on over there because of things like the sugar industry and just a lot that's happening. So that is threaten- since these are arboreal animals, the the trees being cut down as is really limiting their habitat so they're not doing so good. Yeah. Now I wanted to wrap up the aye-aye on a positive note. I don't know if this, I wanted to wrap up the aye-aye on a note that I thought would make you laugh. I think you'll find this charming. The Philadelphia Zoo has an aye-aye named Smeagol.

New Speaker: Yay! Okay!

Ellen: And I can't, I got to say that's the most fitting name I've ever heard for an aye-aye.

New Speaker: You're right.

Ellen: It's exactly what they look like.

New Speaker: Woah, we just had two Tolkien references in one segment.

Ellen: That, you know what that means. If we get one more on our punch card, then we get a free lord of the ring. I don't know enough about the franchise to be able to make a good joke. I'm sorry.

Christian: Lords of ring.

Ellen: So, so yeah, that's the aye-aye.

New Speaker: Thank you honey. It's good.

Ellen: It's a good friend. This is literally just like, hey, they look spooky. Don't like that thing. Absolutely not. Good bye. Hate it.

Christian: You know, I bet there's a silver lining to how they look. Probably don't need to worry about them being in the illegal pet trade.

Ellen: Because who would dare? Who would bother? Yeah. This is not a cute, this is not a cute little guy. You're not gonna... You're not gonna see any Instagram accounts of Smeagol the aye-aye.

New Speaker: That's okay. We love them anyway.

Ellen: We do. We love them anyway. You know what? Not all of our friends are pageant queens. They don't have to be winning beauty contest to be our friends. That's it. That's the aye-aye.

Christian: Thanks hun.

Ellen: You're welcome.

New Speaker: Good stuff.

Ellen: Thanks! Okay. Tell us what you have for this special 13th episode.

New Speaker: Yes, so similarly, another animal that is viewed as a, an omen of sorts is the common raven.

Ellen: ...Caw! Caw!

New Speaker: Basically.

Ellen: I don't- we don't have sound effects. We don't have a sound board, so I had to make my own.

Christian: I do actually have some things to talk about how they sound, but I'll get to that. Its scientific name is Corvus corax. My information for this animal will be coming from allaboutbirds.org which I have used previously for birds.

Ellen: We're back for more.

New Speaker: Yeah, and also nationalgeographic.com. So let's talk about what they look like. I think a lot of people will have a basic understanding of what ravens look like. Personally, I find them to look a lot like crows. I would probably have a very hard time differentiating them unless I happen to see one of each next to each other.

Ellen: For the longest time, I thought crow and raven were synonymous. I thought it was just two words for the same animal.

Christian: So they're actually relatives. They both belong to the taxonomic family Corvidae, related to crows, jays and magpies. So, black feathered bird, right. They have this big beak, some describe it as the shape of a Bowie knife and lengthwise, they're 22.1 to 27.2 inches, which is 56 to 69 centimeters.

Ellen: That's a big bird.

Christian: Yeah, they're pretty big.

Ellen: That's really big.

New Speaker: Yeah. So that's one differentiator between them and crows, is that ravens are usually bigger than crows.

Ellen: Okay.

New Speaker: Yeah. Weight, they are 24.32 57.3 ounces or 689 to 1,625 grams.

Ellen: There has to be a better conversion of that. Kilograms?

Christian: Sure, uh, yeah. So 0.6 kilograms to 1.6 kilograms.

Ellen: Thank you. We don't use the metric system often. I'm so sorry to all of our listeners in... Everywhere else in the world that's not here.

Christian: Our bad! Uh wingspan, 45.7 to 46.5 inches or 116 to 118 centimeters. Big wingspan.

Ellen: Big boy!

New Speaker: So like most birds, their wingspan is the biggest dimension on them in terms of length.

Ellen: Absolute unit.

New Speaker: Right. So the common raven, as the name might imply, are found in many, many places. Specifically, all across the northern hemisphere. A lot of the information I'll be talking about are those that are found in North America. They do have subspecies, specifically in North America. They are found in open and forest habitats across western and northern in North America. So they're not actually found in the part of the country where we live.

Ellen: Yeah, I don't think I've seen one.

New Speaker: Right.

Ellen: I've seen lots of crows.

New Speaker: Yeah, for sure. For sure.

Ellen: And I guess for a lot of my life I thought that ravens were the same thing as crows. So I thought I saw ravens all the time, but I didn't. I saw crows.

Christian: Sure, sure. First score: effectiveness. I'm giving the raven a 7 out of 10.

Ellen: Decent.

New Speaker: So first of all, they are excellent flyers. Better flyers than crows. Suck it, crows.

Ellen: Sorry, crows, get stomped on.

New Speaker: So they're known for the aerobatics. They do some pretty fancy dives and rolls in midair. They're actually known to pick things up, fly up with it, drop it, and then catch it as a way of like entertainment.

Ellen: Oh my gosh! They're having fun. That's what I would do if I was a bird.

Christian: And, uh, the next part that I wanted to give them most of their points for with effectiveness is that they'll pretty much eat anything.

Ellen: Oh?

New Speaker: Yeah. So they're technically omnivores. They are known to eat carrion, so that's kind of what they're known for, but also small animals, eggs, insects, grains, berries, pet food, human food, and I guess wolf and sled dog dung

Ellen: ...Ew.

New Speaker: So you thought I was going to say they eat wolves.

Ellen: Yeah! I was like... I know that this is an audio medium, and I'm really sad that our listeners couldn't see the look on my face that I was making as you progressed through that sentence.

Christian: Why has no one talked about the birds that are eating wolves?!

Ellen: That was an emotional roller coaster for me.

Christian: But yeah, so they'll eat pretty much anything. Part of their reputation comes from the fact that they're associated with eating carrion. So this kind of builds into an association with death.

Ellen: Oh, okay. So people see them hanging around dead things, and they're like, oh, it's a bad luck sign.

Christian: Right. That's part of it. Next I'd like to move on to ingenuity. I think I will be giving them a full 10 out of 10 on ingenuity.

Ellen: Clean up ravens!

Christian: Yup. So ravens are extremely intelligent. I have four different things I found that they're pretty good at.

Ellen: Alright.

New Speaker: First up is tool use.

Ellen: Very good. That's kind of the indicator, right?

Christian: Right. There's a popular video I think that goes around on YouTube and Facebook sometimes that shows ravens getting a treat out of a device of some sort. So basicall,y it's a device where they have to use a special tool and it releases their favorite treat. So they've been shown to be able to do that.

Ellen: They're real good at it too.

Christian: Yeah, yeah. So that device, the specifics of that device is different depending on the study. But basically, they can use a special tool to release their favorite treat and eat it. Uh, next up is they're able to plan for the future.

Ellen: Really?

New Speaker: Right. So kind of going back to that special tool release mechanism, if they're offered to pick from a collection of things and one of those things is the special tool, but you're not offering the device with the treat at the same time, they will still pick that special tool.

Ellen: Oh, cause they know they'll need it later!

New Speaker: Yes.

Ellen: What!

Christian: So yeah...

Ellen: It's a surprise tool that'll help us later!

New Speaker: Get my snack later! This works even up to the delay between presentation of the tool and presentation of the treat box where that delay has gone up to 17 hours.

Ellen: What? That's like the next day!

New Speaker: It's intense, right?

Ellen: Yeah. They're like, oh well I'll need this later. Oh my gosh, this, the raven is me playing every video game and I come across literally any item that's not- that I haven't found before and I stockpile 46 of them. No, I'm definitely going to need this healing potion later. I definitely can't use it now.

Christian: So the next thing is bartering.

Ellen: What...

New Speaker: So they can be taught the concept of bartering. So specifically they can be taught to exchange a token of some sort for their favorite treat.

Ellen: They have an economy?!

New Speaker: Well, it's between a human, right.

Ellen: They have economics!

Christian: So like a human can teach them like, hey, if you give me this token, I'll give you your favorite treat.

Ellen: Sure. Huh.

New Speaker: Right?

Ellen: They've learned finance.

Christian: And then the last one is delayed gratification. So this is something a lot of people have a problem with, myself included. If given two choices of an inferior treat that they can have right now, or they can pick the token that they know they can trade later for their favorite treat, they will almost always pick that token.

Ellen: Oh my gosh. Because they know, like, that's better. This is more is it's like they're, they're thinking in their head about value. Like the value of things. It's like this crappy treat is not worth that much to me, but this token is worth very much to me.

Christian: Now the article did say that this particular one is a little open to interpretation because it could be just that the raven more closely associates the token to food than it does the inferior treat.

Ellen: Yeah, but the inferior treat is like, food. Right now. Like, you would expect them to just go straight for the food that they don't have to do anything for. Right?

New Speaker: That's true, that's true. They could just be picky.

Ellen: Yeah. It's just like, it just seems to me more like it's a comprehension of value and like, things having more or less value than other things.

Christian: Right, right. And then another thing that might go into the ingenuity category is that they have the ability to mimic other birds and animals, but also human speech. I couldn't find any support for them being able to actually speak. It seems to just be a mimic type situation. But still interesting, they can mimic the calls of other birds and animals, sometimes just for fun.

Ellen: They seem like they have a lot of personality. They seem like they like to do things their way. They sound like they really just like to have a good time.

Christian: Uh, and so it's usually in captivity that they can mimic human speech. I found one particular video where a raven was taught to mimic the phrase never more.

Ellen: Of course it was.

New Speaker: Right. So being a reference to Edgar Allen Poe.

Ellen: Mhmm. That's, I'm sure that is deeply unsettling to watch.

New Speaker: It is very weird. And they're pretty good at it too.

Ellen: Yeah, that's the creepy bit, right?

Christian: Yeah. So while we're on the topic, the way they sound is a little different from crows. They do still have a caw, but the ravens sound is more musical. It's doing more with the pitch and tone.

Ellen: Huh.

New Speaker: And it kind of sounds, how do I describe it? Gargly, I guess? They have ability to make these funny clicks and...

Ellen: Like uh, gravelly maybe? Like course?

New Speaker: It's interesting. Maybe we can put in a little sample.

Ellen: Raspy? Is raspy the right word?

Christian: No, not really. Uh, I, we can listen to it later. Maybe you can put in a sound bit.

Ellen: We'll try to do that without getting sued.

New Speaker: Maybe. So. Yeah, 10 out of 10 for ingenuity. And lastly aesthetics, I'm giving it a 7 out of 10.

Ellen: Oh...

New Speaker: That's pretty good, I think.

Christian: That's good...

New Speaker: Yeah.

Ellen: I think, I dunno, maybe that's just... *sigh*

New Speaker: So again, completely arbitrary.

Ellen: I know... I just very much like these birds.

New Speaker: They're sleek and black, right? So their entire color palette is black unless you happen to find an albino raven. But the color is actually a little iridescent. So if you, if you happen to see one in direct sunlight, it can kind of take on a purpleish bluish hue.

Ellen: It's so cool.

New Speaker: Yeah.

Ellen: Although it does kind of look oily, it gives them like an oily look.

Christian: True. That's true. Yup. Yup. And like I mentioned earlier, it would be hard for me at least to differentiate them from crows, but maybe that's just because I've never seen a raven in real life. I Dunno. Um, their hatchlings have been described as grotesque gargoyles.

Ellen: Get dunked on. That's so rude. Messy.

Christian: So shots fired, but also still a reference to the whole gothic theme, right?

Ellen: Yeah, this is what you think of when you think of like a gothic aesthetic animal.

Christian: Yeah. Yeah. So some fun facts and some not so fun facts. Uh, the conservation status is of least concern.

Ellen: Great.

Christian: Which makes sense. They're found over a huge swath of the planet.

Ellen: They seem pretty adaptable too, they're pretty good at, you know, making the most of whatever situation they're in.

Christian: So, it turns out there is a reason why they are not in the part of the country where we're at, which is, you know, the southeast of the United States. And this is because as eastern forests were cut down in the 19th and 20th centuries, ravens disappeared from most of eastern North America, but they are beginning to return now that the forest cover regenerates in the northeast at least. So still not anywhere near us, but further up northeast, they're starting to return.

Ellen: Man, we don't get any of the good stuff.

New Speaker: Don't get puffins...

Ellen: We don't get puffins, we don't get ravens. Where's our cool birds?

New Speaker: We don't even get flamingos, really.

Ellen: Which is the crazy thing!

New Speaker: Right?

Ellen: Cause all of our merch has flamingos on it! We don't have them here.

Christian: I read somewhere there are more plastic flamingos, like the lawn ornaments, than there are actual flamingos in Florida.

Ellen: Probably by exponential degrees. We have them at the zoo. They're all up in the zoo.

New Speaker: Yeah. But anyway, different animals.

Ellen: I'm just expressing my feelings.

Christian: Do it. So kind of going back to our whole theme right where the, the unluckiness, the superstition. Since the common raven is found in so much of the world, they are referenced in many, many cultures and religions. A lot of them have kind of similar motifs though. It's usually an association with death because of being carrion-eating birds.

Ellen: Sure.

New Speaker: But also of omens, usually ill omens, but omens in general.

Ellen: Yeah.

New Speaker: I think that comes from their, the way they sound and their ability to mimic.

Ellen: And they're just generally spooky.

New Speaker: Right?

Ellen: They're just generally, they have a spooky kind of vibe to them.

New Speaker: Yep.

Ellen: It's a spooky birb.

Christian: So I mean, obviously Edgar Allen Poe, you know, he found them at least mildly disturbing, to...

Ellen: Well, I mean, he was kind of into that whole scene though. That was kind of his vibe, that whole goth aesthetic was kind of his thing.

Christian: What if he wasn't, and he was just like... What if he wasn't really into it? He was just like, this is the stuff that scares me. And then people were like, "yeah, this is awesome!" he was like, "no, please, no, this is scary!"

Ellen: What if he was like a real softie at heart.

Christian: Um, so like I said, lots and lots of references out there, uh, too much to really pick from. So I just chose one really short Aesop fable.

Ellen: Oh!

Christian: Did I pronounce that right?

Ellen: Sure.

Christian: Um, titled The Crow and the Raven.

Ellen: The Crow AND the Raven?

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: This would have blown my mind if you had told this to me before I knew that they were different animals.

Christian: So it goes, the crow was jealous of the raven whose cry was taken as an omen. Crow tried to mimic the raven, but travelers saw through the ploy and ignored the crow. That's it.

Ellen: End of story? You know, usually like, Aesop's fables have like a, some sort of moral of the story or message to them, but this is just, hey, crow wishes it could.

Christian: I think the moral here is to not try to be something that you aren't,

Ellen: I guess... It's really just dunking on crows. The moral of the story is crow sucks. Raven's great.

Christian: Don't be a crow.

Ellen: Oh Man. That's, that's rough.

Christian: Yup. And then obviously, you know, I think the most recent reference to ravens, of course, is Game of Thrones.

Ellen: Oh, I thought you were going to say Raven Simone from That's So Raven.

Christian: Not quite. Or, Raven from Teen Titans.

Ellen: Oh yeah, her too. Oh yeah. Well, the three eyed raven, right?

Christian: Yeah, yeah. But also they use Ravens as messengers in the

Ellen: Oh yeah. Do they?

Christian: Yeah. They're like-

Ellen: Oh yeah, send a raven.

Christian: Winter's coming.

Ellen: Wintuh is comin'!

Christian: HBO please don't sue us.

Ellen: HBO, ah don't want eht.

Christian: Oh Man. So, uh, those three scores: effectiveness for 7 out of 10, ingenuity 10 out of 10, aesthetics 7 out of 10. That all comes to an overall of an even 8 out of 10.

Ellen: That's a good one! It's a good bird!

Christian: It's a good birb. Good Birb, yeah. I do hope to see them in person someday.

Ellen: I would love to. They seem very spirited. They seem like they have a lot of good personality.

Christian: Yeah. Yeah. And I do recommend folks to maybe check out some videos of ravens. They're funny little dudes.

Ellen: I think. I think on some level they're being funny on purpose.

Christian: Maybe.

Ellen: Good animal. Good job, darlin!

Christian: Thanks honey.

Ellen: You're welcome. All right, well thank you everybody for spending your time listening to our show. We would really like to thank everybody who has been recommending our show to your friends. We've been seeing a lot of growth over the last couple of weeks and we're really excited about that.

Christian: It's been great.

Ellen: It's been so thrilling, so you know, keep it up. Keep letting your friends know about us. We really appreciate it. We have some plans to do some things to give back to our listeners in the future, so stay tuned for updates on that. If you liked what you heard and you want to be our friend, you can connect with us on our Facebook page. We're also on Twitter and Instagram, so all you have to do is search the title of the show and you will find us.

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: If you have an animal species that you want us to review, you can submit those to us either via Facebook message or I guess Twitter or Instagram works fine too. Just send us a message on social media or you can email them to us at thezooofus@gmail.com. A transcript of this episode will be made available for your use at justthezooofus.home.blog so if you use transcripts, check those out. Those will be up and available for you. And just our last thing, I would like to wrap up by thanking Louie Zong for the use of his delightful track "Adventuring" off of his album Bee Sides.

Christian: I love listening to that song.

Ellen: We love listening not only to that song but to kind of all of his musical repertoire.

Christian: Very good.

Ellen: It's so good. It's very like chill, upbeat, feel good electronic music and it's just so delightful for any purpose. I recommend putting it on as background music while you're having dinner. It's really nice. Sets a good tone.

Christian: Yeah. For sure.

Ellen: So yeah, thanks everybody for listening. We really appreciate it.

Christian: Yeah, thanks. And y'all stay lucky out there. Avoid those ladders and.. Don't forget to throw salt over your shoulder periodically.

Ellen: Oh... Okay. You had it, you were going so strong for a second there. At first I was like, oh, is this a new sign off? Have we finally come up with what we can commit to? And then, yeah, you took it in a weird direction.

Christian: It's the... the theme...

Ellen: Give your black cat some extra love today.

Christian: They don't deserve all the flack they get.

Ellen: They don't. Actually, you know what? Take it a step further. Go out there, find a black cat. Bring it into your house. That's your black cat now.

Christian: Uh oh. It's a Jaguar. You messed up.

Ellen: How did you do this? How did you pull it- How did you get it into your house?

Christian: This is why you don't walk under ladders.

Ellen: You must have a really big car.

Christian: Alright yall.

Ellen: Alright, thanks everybody.

Christian: Byeee!

Ellen: Byeee!

12: Golden Poison Frog & Tamandua

Christian: Hi everyone, this is Christian Weatherford.

Ellen: And this is Ellen Weatherford.

Christian: And this is Just the Zoo of Us, a podcast where we review your favorite animals by giving them a rating out of 10 in three categories: effectiveness, ingenuity, and aesthetics. I like to think we do a good job of it. We are not zoological experts. We do a lot of research and we try our best to make sure we're presenting information from trustworthy sources.

Ellen: We're doing our best out here.

Christian: Alright honey, who's going first this week?

Ellen: Well, baby, last week I went first and so this week it's your turn.

Christian: Excellent.

Ellen: What you got?

Christian: My animal for this week is the golden poison frog.

Ellen: Okay! Interesting!

Christian: A lot of people are aware of the poison dart frogs, which is really just kind of a term for a whole family of frogs that encompasses a bunch of different species, but I'm specifically talking about the golden poison frog, whose scientific name is Phyllobates terribilis. Is it just me or is that name similar to terrible?

Ellen: How do you spell it?

Christian: T-E-R-R-I-B-I-L-I-S.

Ellen: That pretty much just is terrible.

Christian: Uh, there might be a reason for this, but more to come.

Ellen: I hope that doesn't forbode poorly. Like I hope that's not ominous about what it's rating is going to be.

Christian: Oh Non it is amazing. Um, it's for a different actor for which it is terrible. But anyway, my information for this one is coming from nationalgeographic.com, wou.edu, which is the Western Oregon University website, bbc.com and the Crash Course youtube channel. I'll go more in specifics about that when I get to that subject.

Ellen: Okay. We're going to learn today.

Christian: So basic info for our little froggy friend, their average size is one inch long, or two and a half centimeters about.

Ellen: That's no chickens.

Christian: Like the toenail of a chicken? I don't know. That is the length of a paper clip abouts.

Ellen: Like a jumbo paper clip or like a normal paper clip?

Christian: I don't know what the standardized paper clips are. There might be a difference in metric paperclips and imperial paperclips.

Ellen: Yeah. These are in US Paperclips. Sorry.

Christian: Their location, they are found in a small section of rainforest on the Pacific coast of Colombia. A little fun fact: They have a name for a group of these little critters. They are called an army.

Ellen: Nuh uh!

Christian: Yup.

New Speaker: Oh my God.

Christian: Army of golden poison frogs.

New Speaker: Oh my gosh. That's so good.

Christian: I don't know if that name is specific to this species or if that's more generally used for frogs, but I like it.

Ellen: You know, I'm a real sucker for collective names for groups of animals. I'm so into those. This is great. An army of frogs.

Christian: Maybe a good art... A good art.

New Speaker: This is a great art. This is a prompt for our fan artists out there: army of poison frogs.

Christian: Please give me the art.

New Speaker: One art please. I'll take one.

Christian: Uh, the taxonomic family is the Dendrobatidae. Its notable evolutionary relatives are the other poison dart frogs. So they all belong to the same family. Now let's get into the rating: first up, effectiveness.

New Speaker: What does effectiveness mean, babe?

Christian: So, I like to describe it as in how good are they at the things they're meant to do?

New Speaker: Sure. They got a thing they're trying to do. How good are they at it?

Christian: Yeah, so these are physical attributes, that sort. I'm giving the golden poison frog a full 10 out of 10 on effectiveness.

New Speaker: Perfect score.

Christian: So let's talk about it.

New Speaker: Let's hash this out.

Christian: It is considered to be one of the most toxic animals on the planet.

Ellen: Oh my.

Christian: This is why I specifically chose this species over the others among the poison dart frogs.

New Speaker: A real standout frog.

Christian: Yes. So a two inch frog, or five centimeters, has enough poison to kill 10 grown men.

New Speaker: Oh... My.

Christian: Yes. These little guys are thought to get their poison from the insects that they eat, although no one's entirely sure which insects specifically.

New Speaker: Right, because I feel like there's not an insect around there that has that potent of a poison. Right?

Christian: I think the thought process is there are, but it's built up over time.

New Speaker: Oh, it's like concentrated.

Christian: So like they, the insects themselves might not have it, but over time they do get it.

New Speaker: Okay. So this is concentrated like the sea slug that we talked about in an earlier episode, like stores it in its body and makes it more potent.

Christian: Similar. Similar. So these guys store this poison in glands just beneath the skin.

New Speaker: Oh...

Christian: Yeah. Now here's where it gets interesting, is how the poison works.

New Speaker: It was already interesting, but I can't wait to hear about it.

Christian: So the poison is called a batrachotoxin. I'm going to shorten that to BTX so I don't have to try to pronounce that every time. And this is where I'm getting into that YouTube video I mentioned earlier. Again, it was the Crash Course YouTube channel in this one is basically about the nervous system action potential. So to describe how the poison works, let's first talk about how the nervous system works in general on a happy path.

New Speaker: All right, everybody, get out your bio textbooks. It's time. We're going to class.

Christian: So action potential is basically a difference in charge or the movement of electricity over your nervous system cells. So that's how our whole nervous system works, is the transmission of little tiny electrical signals. You know when you want to move your hand, your brain is sending an electrical signal to your hand to contract those muscles and what have you. So, the way cells do that: inside of the nerve cell, they are negatively charged relative to the outside of them or outside their membranes. This is called the resting state. So when some stimulus happens, let's say we have a nerve cell in my leg and I touch my leg. So that stimulus causes mechanical sodium gates to start allowing sodium ions into the membrane. So now I should mention sodium ions are positively charged. So this starts to increase the charge within this, within the cell.

New Speaker: Making it less negatively charged.

Christian: Correct. So I believe the value is at a resting state, it's at a -70 millivolts. So typically you'll hear volts described into just regular volts, but since this is a small, small magnitude, we're talking millivolts.

New Speaker: Itty bitty.

Christian: Yeah. So it starts to let in those, those sodium ions and eventually it reaches a threshold where it starts to trigger the action potential. So when it reaches a particular charge, I believe the video said it was -55 millivolts, so this causes voltage-gated sodium gates to open. So voltage-gated means, you know, these are responding to the relative voltage rather than a mechanical stimulus. So when that voltage reaches that threshold, the sodium gates open, allowing even more sodium ions in.

New Speaker: Oh okay.

Christian: Yeah, so then eventually your charge becomes positive. It spikes. So that's the action potential. So now we went from a polarized state to a depolarized state where we have a positive charge. Now to go back, or to repolarize, the sodium gates close and potassium gates open, potassium is another positively charged ion. So the potassium starts to flow out of the membrane, reducing the charge again.

New Speaker: So the positively charged potassium leaving is extracting positive charge from the cell, making it less positively charged and bringing the charge back down into the negative that it needs to be at.

Christian: Right. So just keep in mind, sodium and potassium are both positively charged ions. When this happens, the potassium gates open, letting out potassium, the sodium gates close, no longer allowing sodium in. Eventually this goes a little bit too negative. So this is called hyperpolarization. So to correct this hyperpolarization, the membrane has these things called sodium potassium pumps. And what these are doing is they're releasing sodium ions and pulling back in potassium ions to balance us back out to the original resting charge.

New Speaker: Back to normal.

Christian: Yeah. So that whole cycle takes less than a millisecond.

New Speaker: That's very fast.

Christian: Yes. And then so what's happening here with your nervous system is, you know, these are happening in rapid succession and one part is kicking off the next until it travels all the way up to where it's going: your brain. Or from your brain to the, I guess, muscle or limb or what have you.

New Speaker: This is like causing a chain reaction all the way up to your brain and back.

Christian: Right. So here's where the poison comes in. What BTX does, it interferes with your body's ability to transmit electrical signals by binding to voltage-gated sodium channels. Those are the gates that are letting in sodium. So it's binding to those voltage gated sodium channels in your muscles and nerve cells. It makes it so the sodium channel stay open.

New Speaker: So they're bringing in a lot more sodium than they need to.

Christian: Right. So, so the channel is just letting in sodium and never closing. So what that does is it throws off that cycle of going from polarization to depolarization and back and forth. So that's either stopping the cycle or slowing it down tremendously. And that effect is irreversible.

New Speaker: Oh, there's no... Cure?

Christian: There's just no way to, once it's open, there's, there's no way to close it.

New Speaker: Oh Geez. That's very permanent.

Christian: Yes. So what this causes is numbness, paralysis, fibrillation, arrhythmia, and heart failure.

New Speaker: None of those are good.

Christian: No.

New Speaker: None of those are what you want.

Christian: So death, basically.

New Speaker: You die, immediately.

Christian: I don't know about immediately, but...

Ellen: Every second that you're not yet dead, you wish you were.

Christian: Well, you won't be able to feel anything is the thing.

New Speaker: Oh, I guess, yeah if you're numb. I guess.. .

Christian: It's probably, I mean, you're still emotionally...

New Speaker: Dead.

Christian: I don't know.

New Speaker: You're dead inside.

Christian: But yeah. That's the batrachotoxin.

New Speaker: Nice.

Christian: Scary stuff, yeah?

New Speaker: If you're going to have a defense mechanism, want that one to be it, Huh?

Christian: Yeah.

New Speaker: That's some intense biochemical warfare.

Christian: Yeah, yeah. And I'm sorry if that was a very wordy description of what was going on, but I thought it was a little interesting.

Ellen: Hey, yeah. Once you get into the inner workings of the body and the really complicated mechanisms that are at work in your cells, it gets just mindblowingly fascinating.

Christian: Yeah. So the frogs themselves are immune to this, to their own poison.

New Speaker: I would hope so!

Christian: And the way they do this is because they've evolved voltage-gated sodium channels that are unaffected by the toxin.

New Speaker: Good idea.

Christian: Yeah. And then my next point for effectiveness is their coloration itself warns predators of the toxicity, and this is pretty common in the animal kingdom. And the phrase that describes this is actually called aposematic coloration. I thought that was pretty interesting.

Ellen: Yeah. Cause at that point if you do eat them and get poisoned and die, it's kind of your fault.

Christian: Although, there are animals that will show these kinds of colorations but not actually have poison or venom to back it up.

New Speaker: Bluff. Bluff move.

Christian: Yeah. So a good example of that in Florida is the difference between the coral snake and the milk snake. Right.

Ellen: That's so shady and sly that they would do that. That's so rude. Honestly, they couldn't be bothered to make their own venom, do they just copied another one. Hey, uh, can I copy your homework?

Christian: Oh, you know what though, this is a good segue to talk about the difference between something that his venomous versus something that is poisonous.

New Speaker: Yes.

Christian: So you would describe something as venomous when they have a toxin that comes along with a delivery system.

New Speaker: It's put in you.

Christian: Yeah. So, this is something that has things that will bite you in deliver that toxin, whereas something that is poisonous, you would have to usually ingest or come into contact with it, like in skin contact. So that's the difference between something that is venomous versus something that is poisonous. So that is the, that is the effectiveness. Again, 10 out of 10. And if you are interested in learning more about how that works at the biological level and you want to hear it described much better than I did, again, that is the Crash Course Youtube channel. Check them out. Next category: Ingenuity. I'm giving them a standard 6 out of 10.

New Speaker: It's just a frog.

Christian: This is a predator....

New Speaker: It's just the little dude- are they a predator?

Christian: I mean they go after insects and stuff.

New Speaker: Oh yeah, that's, yeah. I guess... They're an apex Predator, right? What's coming for 'em?

Christian: Well, I mean, they are in rainforest. So, so one little point I put here is their toxicity is not exactly on purpose, right? I think it just happened. Like, they like to eat these things and like, oh hey! Now I'm dangerous as all get out!

Ellen: Luck of the draw. They got dealt a great hand.

Christian: And they were also immune to the effects because any other animal would be like, "yeah, I love these crickets- uh!" Another point I gave them for ingenuity: they lay their eggs in moist areas and then as they develop into tadpoles, the parents move them into bodies of water.

New Speaker: Ohhh.

Christian: Yeah. That's all I really had for ingenuity. 6 out of 10.

Ellen: That's like a little bit more like maternal instincts than you might expect from an amphibian.

New Speaker: Right?

New Speaker: Although, I have seen some really cool documentaries on like, I don't know if it was on Planet Earth, I think it was on the BBC series Life following the journey of this little rainforest frog, how she's laid her tadpoles up in this tree, this really, really tall tree. But she has to come back to feed them like every single day. So she, but she laid them all in all these different trees so she has to spend her whole day like, climbing up a tree, feeding her baby, climbing back down the tree, going to a different tree, climbing up, feeding her baby, climbing back down and the frog is like, the size of like a penny. So she's like, it takes her all day long to feed all of her babies. There are some surprisingly good frog moms out there.

Christian: How cute. Aesthetics wise, I'm giving it an 8 out of 10.

New Speaker: They're pretty.

Christian: Yeah, they're cute. Very cute. Although with what I know about them, I have to describe them as cute but scary.

Ellen: Yeah, they're cute and endearing in a way that is deceptive. It makes you think, oh, I really want to handle that. Don't do it. You'll die.

Christian: Um, so- oh, you mentioned the color earlier. So of course they can be yellow, but also they can also be orange or pale green.

New Speaker: What!

Christian: Yeah. Kind of depending on where specifically they're found. Oh, cool. They also have these little black accents throughout their body. I've seen pictures of one where it has black accents on its lips where it kind of looks like it's making a kissy face.

Ellen: Oh, my goodness. Too cute. I really like the color combo of yellow and black.

Christian: It's very good.

New Speaker: That's always a, that's always a powerful color combo.

Christian: For sure. So, that is a 10 out of 10 in effectiveness, a 6 out of 10 in ingenuity and an 8 out of 10 in aesthetics, which comes up to an overall 8 out of 10.

Ellen: This is a good frog.

Christian: Good Frog.

New Speaker: This is better than our frogs that we have here.

Christian: Not for eating, though.

New Speaker: Nooo.

Christian: Don't do it.

New Speaker: Specifically don't do that. Although you know what, as a self defense mechanism, poisoning its predator, if it is eaten doesn't really save the frog from being eaten, does it?

Christian: Not really. Yeah.

New Speaker: Like that's really just out of spite. You've already been killed and eaten.

Christian: Yeah. Something about evolution in there somewhere.

New Speaker: You are already dead.

Christian: Conservation status: these little guys are in are endangered.

New Speaker: Oh no...

Christian: So because they're found in a very specific rain forest, and of course, you know rain forests in general are having a very hard time with loss of habitat...

New Speaker: Yeah. Things aren't going great.

Christian: Yeah. A little interesting fact, since their toxicity is derived from their diet in the wild specimens taken from the wild man just kind of fed pet store food or what have you, will eventually lose their toxicity.

New Speaker: Hey, how do you test that?

Christian: Not Confidently.

Ellen: Hey, yeah, um, here's this, um golden poison frog. It's like the most toxic thing in the world and if you touch it, you could die, but we're pretty sure... We've had it in the shop for like a couple months now. I don't know. It's probably fine.

Christian: But what this also means is those born in captivity don't have it to start with.

Ellen: Oh. Well, there you go. That's how you do it.

Christian: Yup. A synthetic version of one of the poison's compounds has been developed that has a promise as being a powerful pain killer.

Ellen: Well, now that's not what you would've thought.

Christian: Yeah. I mean, I guess just they wanted just the numbness part, but none of the death part.

Ellen: Listen, you can't have your cake and eat it too, guys.

Christian: And then lastly, of course, the namesake of a poison dart frogs in general. So for this particular one, they were used by Columbia's Embera tribe. They regularly use the poison to coat third blow darts to hunt with.

New Speaker: Oh, so this is a real thing?

Christian: Yeah. This is a real thing. Not all frogs that are referred to as poison dart frogs have been used this way, but this is one species that has definitely been used that way.

New Speaker: Wow...

Christian: Unfortunately though, to get the poison from the frog, they have to, I'm just going to say induce pain to the frog. I'm not going to go into very much detail there, it's kind of a bummer, but we'll just keep it at that.

New Speaker: No bad vibes.

Christian: Yeah. So they have to stress out the frog so that it is secretes the poison and then they'll coat the dart with it. Yeah. So, that is the golden poison frog.

Ellen: I feel like this frog is way, way, way cuter than the 40,000 frogs we have in our backyard.

Christian: That's true.

New Speaker: Oh, were you inspired to do this animal by the 40,000 frogs we have in our backyard?

Christian: No, I was just kind of perusing our list and kind of caught my eye. But also the Jacksonville Zoo has a couple of, I guess poison dart frogs.

Ellen: I don't think they are the golden ones though. They're little like green and blue and stuff.

Christian: Yeah, yeah. They're really cute though.

New Speaker: Ah, they are cute.

Christian: It's funny, they're in this really big enclosure so you really have to try to find them. Like, looking.

Ellen: Yeah cause they're in there with the... Some type of boa, right? It's like a rainbow...? It's a big snake that's in there, but it is kinda hard trying to find these teeny little frogs in a big old cage.

Christian: Yeah. But when you do, it's a good experience.

New Speaker: It's a nice little treat.

Christian: Yeah. Alright, so what do you have for us this week?

Ellen: This week I have an animal that actually I had never heard the name of until it was brought to my attention. This animal is called the tamandua. The scientific name of this species is to Tamandua tetradactyla. This animal was submitted to us by Miranda Lowery. Miranda has experience working with this animal. So lots of firsthand experience. We had some, some really interesting input from Miranda.

Christian: Oh, exciting!

New Speaker: Yes! So thank you very much Miranda, for your contribution to this episode. Now the rest of the information that I'm getting is from the San Diego Zoo and the Smithsonian National Zoo.

Christian: Very good.

Ellen: Yes. So the tamandua is a small anteater. This is actually a type of anteater. It's related to the giant ant eater. So the tamandua is a small anteater with a long, skinny snout, a chunky body and a long muscular tail. Yup. The digits on their feet are these long, sharp claws and they have very dense fur. The fur is a blonde or a light brown with black markings in the shape of a vest, so black markings that go like around the arms and onto the back. It looks like a vest.

Christian: I'm imagining an animal that likes to hug, for some reason.

New Speaker: So, it would look that way. It does a thing that makes it look like that, but... Don't.

Christian: Oh, is it T-posing?

New Speaker: Kind of, is the thing! I'll get to it, I'll get to it, I'll get to it!

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: The adult size of the tamandua is 2 to 3 feet, that's 53 to 88 centimeters for our metric listeners with an additional one to two feet in the length of the tail. So yeah, a good, a good length tail. You're going to find these in forests and jungles in South America. There's actually two species of tamanduas. There's the northern and the southern. This is the southern one. The taxonomic order of these dudes is Pilosa, this order includes anteaters as well as sloths.

Christian: Okay.

New Speaker: So they're all kind of related. Obviously, they're more-

Christian: It's the toe thing, isn't it?

New Speaker: Yeah, the claw toes? Yeah. Obviously they're more closely related to the anteaters than the sloths, but they're all part of the same order. Yep. So this is, they're a cousin to the giant anteater, which is the one that you're probably more familiar with. It's gray and has the long fluffy tail and it's huge.

Christian: This is a biggun.

Ellen: Yeah, that's a big animal. Much bigger than I always thought they were. The tamandua is like a more... A little one. It's compact. So, I'm using the same rating system. I'm going to get started with effectiveness. I gave it a 7 out of 10.

New Speaker: Okay.

New Speaker: So the tamandua spends most of their time in trees, which is why they have those big powerful claws. Those long claws help them climb and grip branches. So, these big strong claws are really great for climbing trees, busting open termite mounds, they can just kind of, rarr, like dig right into it and bust up the termite mounds to get the termites inside. And they're also good for defending themselves. But unfortunately those big giant claws make walking on the ground really difficult. And it does have to walk on the ground sometimes. Not all the time, but sometimes.

Christian: I mean, that's where the termites are right?

New Speaker: Right. So they're like mostly arboreal. I saw a figure that said they spend about 60% of their time in the trees, but they do have to spend a lot of time on the ground so they don't walk so good on the ground.

Christian: Like, I eat... Now I tree.

New Speaker: Yeah, now tree goodbye. So, when they do walk on the ground, since they have those long claws, they have to curl their claws inward, which means they have to walk on the outside edges of their feet so that their claws don't like, mess their paws up. I don't know if you'd call those paws. Hands? That sounds weird.

Christian: Uh, arm... pads.

Ellen: They're um, appendages. This having to walk on the outside edges of their feet makes them really slow and clumsy when they're not in a tree.

Christian: Poor babies.

New Speaker: Yeah, they're slow in general. Like even when they are in the trees, they are in no hurry. You can really kind of see the resemblance to their sloth cousins.

Christian: What a weird motif.

New Speaker: They're just chill. They're very chill. They're on their own time, man.

Christian: I guess...

New Speaker: They got no schedule. So when they are in the trees, they do have the advantage of having a long, muscular prehensile tail.

New Speaker: Okay.

New Speaker: So the tail is hairless along the bottom and at the end of it. It looks like a rat's tail. You know how rat's tail is bald and it has that skin that's like very rough and it looks scaly? That's how the end of a tamandua's tail looks and all along the bottom of it, it has no hair on it. This helps them grip better.

Christian: Puppy kind of looks like that sometimes.

New Speaker: Sometimes when she has allergies, don't make fun of Puppy! You be nice to my dog.

Christian: Love you, Puppy, wherever you are.

New Speaker: So the bald part of their tail looks a lot like a rat's tail, which some people find really gross and unsettling to look at. But I've never had any problem with it. When I used to have pet rats, I didn't mind their tails.

Christian: For me, it's that same thing as a naked cats. I don't know.

Ellen: Now, I do think those are very cute!

Christian: See, it must be a common thing then.

New Speaker: Maybe it's just a weird thing where you don't like to see like bald animals or something.

Christian: Ahh, that's normally covered in hair! Go away.

Ellen: Anyway, so they use their tail for holding onto tree trunks or branches, but they also use it to brace themselves when they stand up on their hind legs. So they use it as kind of a balance. So when they do stand up on their hind legs they can lean back on their tail and it turns them into kind of like a tripod so they can balance better.

Christian: So is standing up on their hind legs something they do often, or?

Ellen: Sometimes, yeah. Yeah. So I'll, I'll get into that in just a second.

Christian: Okay.

New Speaker: They've got that long, long, long snout. Inside of that long, long, long snout is a sticky barbed tongue that is around 16 inches or 40 centimeters long. This is- yeah, that's a lot of tongue.

Christian: That's like half its body.

New Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. It's way up in there. This is perfect for snagging insects cause it's long, it's skinny, it can get into like ant burrows, it can get into like ant hills and termite mounds and stuff. It can get into logs and get way up in there and bugs. Perfect for what they need it for. Right?

Christian: Yeah.

New Speaker: So in the aardwolf episode- I feel kind of bad cause I've talked about like three insectivores in a row, and even you just talked about a frog. So like that's another one. Like we are really just trashing on bugs.

Christian: The world's food thing.

New Speaker: Yeah. Sorry guys. If only there weren't so many of them. Um, so in the aardwolf episode I talked about how the aardwolf has really, really small teeth and it mostly chews anything that it needs to chew using its stomach. So the tamandua takes that idea and leans into the concept and really kind of takes it to its logical conclusion by having no teeth at all. None, not a tooth in their skull. Miranda says, "we always tell guests anything with a mouth can bite. But these guys are an exception." Miranda says, "their mouths are only big enough for their tongue, so about the size of a pencil, and they don't have any teeth." So they can't bite, the can't chew. It's just tongue in there and that's all.

Christian: Probably gross you out pretty quick. Oh, here's this big tongue. Oh No.

New Speaker: Yeah, it makes me think of Lickitung, the Pokemon. So yeah, no teeth. None. But they do have that like muscular stomach that grinds up their food for them. Yeah. So like why do you need, well you don't, you don't need teeth at that point.

Christian: Do they do that thing where they eat rocks where the rocks help them digest or... I guess they can't because, I mean...

Ellen: There's no room! How are you going to get a rock in there? So yeah, while they're eating all of these ants and termites and stuff like that, they have course dense fur that protects their skin from being bitten. They have a little bit of defense there. It looks soft. Whenever I look at pictures of them, they have that very lightly colored fur and it looks like it would be soft and pleasant to touch, but it is not.

Christian: Makes sense.

New Speaker: It's because it's very coarse and wirey. It doesn't look that way, but oh well. It looks inviting to touch. But there's part of my brain that thinks, oh my gosh, it looks so soft, I want to pet it. And there's another part of my brain that has touched actual animals before and it's telling me like it's definitely not soft, do not touch it.

Christian: Disappointment ahead.

New Speaker: So I want to talk about their perceptive abilities a little bit. I took some points off their effectiveness for their very, very poor vision.

Christian: Oh no...

New Speaker: They have very small eyes, their eyes are teeny tiny.

Christian: What are these, eyes for ants?

Ellen: They are! They have teeny tiny eyes and they don't see very well at all. In their defense they are mostly nocturnal and they navigate mostly with their hearing and their sense of smell. So sight isn't really very important to them anyway.

Christian: Okay.

New Speaker: But still, why limit yourself? You know like why do that to yourself? But so yeah, they've kind of neglected their eyesight. However, they do have a really strong sense of smell. So Miranda says, "one time we gave them a log for enrichment just to play with and they attacked it. There were apparently termites inside of it that we had no clue were there, but the tamanduas were able to smell them."

Christian: Oh. So they thought, oh, here's some decoration. But he was like, oh yeah! Snack!

Ellen: Yeah. So it was supposed to be just like a toy, like a, a fun like thing for them to maybe like, roll around and play with a little bit. But surprise! Treats! Yeah. So that, I thought that was pretty neat. They were able to smell the termites inside of the log. So yeah, they, they clearly have very good sense of smell.

Christian: Awesome.

New Speaker: Now I want to wrap up effectiveness by talking about their self defense. They have a pretty unexpected method of self defense...

Christian: Is this the T-pose?

New Speaker: Well that's part of it. But first, another one: when threatened, tamanduas will release an extremely stinky spray from their anal glands.

Christian: Awwwww....

New Speaker: The smell is four to five times as powerful as a skunk's...

Christian: WHY.

New Speaker: And acts as a deterrent to predators.

Christian: Man...

New Speaker: Yeah. So they have a stink bomb spray. That's how they protect themselves. So I mean you thought your golden poison frog had biochemical warfare cornered.

Christian: I might be dead, but I can't smell bad.

New Speaker: Yeah. The tamandua just makes you wish you were dead. So if that doesn't work and they do need to fight, tamanduas will stand up on their hind legs, spread their arms out to make themselves appear larger, and swing their front claws for self defense.

Christian: So they Bey Blade at you.

New Speaker: So if you've been on the Internet for more than like 45 seconds during the last, I dunno, 15 years, you have seen a picture of a tamandua doing this in the Come At Me Bro meme.

Christian: Ohhhh, okay. So that's where my visualization came from. Okay.

Ellen: Yeah. It's the Come At Me Bro, uh, Tamandua. That's what that is.

Christian: I mean, accurate caption.

New Speaker: Yeah. Cause that's what they're doing. Yeah. They're really, they're trying to make themselves look bigger. Right? They're trying to make themselves look more intimidating, but they're also ready to go. They've got their, their claws ready.

Christian: I mean the intimidation thing is a solid strat.

New Speaker: Right.

Christian: And people say to do that with what, mountain lions or something?

New Speaker: Bears, pretty much anything that's trying your life. But the tamandua has like, the actual weaponry to back up.

Christian: Are you saying these guns aren't weapons??

Ellen: Yeah, you can come catch these hands. So yeah, that's my 7 out of 10 for the tamandua, they are just kind of living their life.

Christian: Okay, okay.

Ellen: Now, for ingenuity, I gave them a 6 out of 10 which is lower than I think I typically give mammals. I think mammals usually kind of have a little bit more development in their brain and usually exhibit more like, social tendencies and like tool use and, and interaction and communication with each other and have like other little intellectual behavioral adaptations that they've made. And the tamandua is just kind of doing... It's not, not really a whole lot going on up in there. Really. Not a lot going on intellectually.

Christian: They go for food...

Ellen: They eat the food, end of list.

Christian: No more log.

Ellen: Yeah. Really, I thought there was going to be more, there's not. I gave them a 6 out of 10 cause they don't seem particularly stupid, but they just don't really seem too bright either.

Christian: Gonna eat ants and then fart all over you. That's their bio.

Ellen: Now I will tell, I will say that since they are nocturnal, who knows? Maybe like, maybe in the dark, in the nighttime, maybe they're, I don't know, doing rocket science or something. Maybe they're like, secret geniuses under the cover of night, but I don't really have anything to back that up so I gave them a just kind of a 6 out of 10.

Christian: Okay. That's fair.

Ellen: Yeah, I mean that's the best I could give them. All right. That brings us to aesthetics. My personal favorite category, 8 out of 10.

Christian: Now, hold on.

Ellen: So, solid animal- what? You think more or less?

Christian: I was thinking less. Doesn't-

Ellen: What?!

Christian: The, I don't know. Does the fart bomb thing count as aesthetic?

Ellen: Well, no! You can't- you can't... When you're looking at a picture of these dudes, you cannot see how bad they smell.

Christian: Not yet.

Ellen: I don't think that should count against them. You don't see a stink cloud following them around in the picture.

Christian: You tell that to the Peanuts.

Ellen: You don't see little wavy lines coming off of their bodies. They look cute!

Christian: Alright.

Ellen: So, long boi, first of all. Long boi. Something really cute about them that I think is great is that their ears, they have big, surprisingly large ears and their ears stick straight out to the sides of their head... like Shrek's ears, like stick straight out.

Christian: You can't invoke that name.

Ellen: So yeah, it's very- I really like their ears. I like their face. They have the long sort of curved looking face. I would give them the best dressed award. You're bringing a black vest to the table? Like, that's good.

Christian: Oh, it's a black tie event, hmm- *fart sounds*

Ellen: I wish I hadn't told you about the fart bombs

Christian: My opinion of them has changed forever.

Ellen: Oh my gosh. Yeah.

Ellen: I mean they're cute. Look at a picture of 'em. He's a cute little dude.

Christian: Yes, I will concede that.

Ellen: Yeah. So 7 out of 10 for effectiveness, 6 out of 10 for ingenuity, and 8 out of 10 for aesthetics brings us to a 7 out of 10 for the tamandua.

Christian: Very good.

Ellen: Yes. I like this animal. Their conservation status is of least concern.

Christian: Really?

Ellen: That's not to say that they're common. They're still pretty rare, but their population isn't like,3 in a sort of dangerous state or anything. Their population is, is not...

Christian: Well, I guess part of their rarity comes from being nocturnal and probably in rain forests.

Ellen: You're not going to see them like, around super often or anything, but their population trends aren't currently any cause for concern. Now some people who live in the Amazon region will keep tamanduas around as pest control.

Christian: I would too.

Ellen: So just let 'em like chill- Now, you say you would...

Christian: Oh. Yeah.

Ellen: But consider for a moment, letting one into your home.

Christian: Nah.

Ellen: You're not getting that security deposit back. I'm so sorry. That house is going to need to be torn down and rebuilt.

Christian: That is an outside tamandua.

Ellen: Yes, that is an outside friend. You're not going to be letting that one on your couch.

Christian: But, if it starts clawing at the side of your house though, then you're- then you know what's up.

Ellen: Yeah, that's true. It's a little termite detection. You know how like, around here we have like pest control agencies that have like a little beagle for their mascot and they like walk a little beagle around and the beagle will like, I dunno, do something to indicate that there's termites there? You can have that with the tamandua that like suddenly start digging at the ground. That'd be pretty cute. So yeah, some people keep them around to control their bug populations, which I think is pretty cool. But unfortunately, they are sometimes hunted by humans or killed by humans. So, for a couple of reasons: First of all, there is an incorrect belief by some people in the area that tamanduas kill dogs.

Christian: Really?

Ellen: Yes. Some people think they kill dogs. They obviously do not. They pose no threat to dogs. They don't really pose a threat to anybody for any reason.

Christian: Unless you're an ant.

Ellen: Unless you're an ant, then this is public enemy number one. But so yeah, if you're a dog, you're fine. But so sometimes people will kill them thinking they're protecting their dogs even though they don't pose a threat. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know where that idea came from, but also in the tamandua's tail, they have these tendons, these really, really strong tendons that people will use to make rope.

Christian: Huh.

Ellen: Yeah. That's a weird one, right? You can just, I guess you can tie them together and make rope with it.

Christian: That's weird...

Ellen: Yes. It's very weird.

Christian: I really want strong shoelaces.

Ellen: Yeah. But people will a hunt tamanduas, I guess for the tendons in their tails.

Christian: Alright then...

Ellen: Yeah. So I mean, that is to say, you know, people will sometimes pose a threat to them, but for the most part tamanduas are secretive and hard to find enough that that's not usually that much of a problem. Just don't do that.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: Don't do that. Come on guys, be cool for like a second. So I'll wrap up the tamandua with a closing quote from Miranda. Miranda says, "They were one of my favorite animals to work with. Cleaning up after them was awful because they smell so bad and they're bright orange urine stains, everything. But they're super sweet and fun."

Christian: Oh No...

Ellen: I didn't know where else to put the bright orange urine, so I just put it in the closing remarks! I didn't think that really factored positively or negatively into anything, but I just wanted you to know about it. I really wanted to make sure that you knew about the bright orange urine.

Christian: Why is this meme lord the way it is?

Ellen: Yeah, so, that's the tamandua.

Christian: Well thank you. Mostly.

Ellen: We had a couple of unsettling uh, kind of disturbing animals?

Christian: Rainforest is scary.

Ellen: Oh yeah. This, these were a couple of rainforest terrors, huh?

Christian: Mmhmm. We should probably just leave the rainforest alone.

Ellen: Sorry for the, um, challenging content that we've given you in this episode.

Christian: Crazy.

Ellen: All right. That wraps things up for us this week. Thank you so much for joining us. If you liked what you heard today, you can connect with us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, all those good things by searching the title of the show. That should bring you right to us.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: If you have an animal species you want to hear us review, you can submit those to us either via Facebook message. You can tweet at us, get at us on social media, you can-

Christian: Stop us on the street.

Ellen: Stop us on the street. Best of luck finding- Yeah. Good luck trying to catch me walking down the street. In Florida? In the summer? I don't think so.

Christian: I mean, just stop anyone you find talking about animals, it's probably us.

Ellen: Stop any man with red beard that you find, or woman with dark hair and glasses. It's definitely us. Um, yeah, so don't do that. But if you can also submit your animal species to us at thezooofus@gmail.com that's our email address. Christian hates it.

Christian: I hate it so much.

Ellen: I'm sorry.

Christian: We're gonna get our own domain name.

Ellen: A transcript of this episode will be made available at justthezooofus.home.blog. So if you are deaf or hard of hearing or have sensory processing needs or you, maybe English is not your first language and you prefer to read along, if for whatever reason you find transcripts helpful, they will be made available on our blog. And the last thing I want to say is I want to thank Louie Zong for the use of his song "Adventuring" off of his album Bee Sides.

Christian: So good, I was jamming out to it the other day.

Ellen: We sure were, we were listening to it and made some really good dinner music.

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: Yeah. Alright darling, another wonderful episode.

Christian: We did it!

Ellen: We did it. Did Great. Great job, sweetie.

Christian: Until the next animals.

Ellen: ...What?

Christian: Like, until next time, but...

Ellen: Yeah, but that sounded weird.

Christian: OKAY BYE

10: Atlantic Puffin & Aardwolf

Ellen: Hi there! This is Ellen Weatherford.

Christian: And Christian Weatherford!

Ellen: And we are back after a brief hiatus with a brand new episode of Just the Zoo of Us, a podcast where we rate and review your favorite species of animals out of 10 in the categories of effectiveness, ingenuity and aesthetics.

Christian: Yeah, we're back. New house, new room, who is this?

Ellen: New office, who dis? Christian and I are not zoological experts but we do a lot of research for the show and we try really hard to make sure that the information we're giving you guys is as accurate as we can get it. We really are trying our best out here, but if you are a zoological expert and we have messed something up, please let us know and we will make it right.

Christian: For sure. We try real, real hard.

Ellen: We do. Christian has been, uh, I've been watching Christian do his notes pretty much for the last 45 hours. He's been really doing his best over here.

Christian: Sleep is for the weak.

Ellen: All right, Christian. Well, so I went first last episode. So Christian, it is your turn to go first.

Christian: All right. My animal for this week is the Atlantic puffin.

Ellen: All right.

Christian: It's scientific name is Fratercula arctica.

Ellen: That's adorable! Fratercula?

Christian: F-R-A-T-E-R-C-U-L-A. That's how I'm pronouncing it.

Ellen: I love it.

Christian: We had two submissions for this animal coming from our friends, Kyle Rauch and Amy Pate.

Ellen: All right. Excellent choices.

Christian: Yes, and my main source of information for this animal is allaboutbirds.org.

Ellen: Love it.

Christian: It's actually a very good website. I highly recommend that. One for bird info, but two, good web design

Ellen: For context, Christian comes from a web development background.

Christian: I sure do. Okay, so quick description for those that may have not have seen them. They often get mistaken for penguins, but they're not.

Ellen: I think they're cuter than penguins.

Christian: For sure. So something that separates them from penguins mainly is the ability to fly.

Ellen: Get wrecked penguins.

Christian: They're also found at the opposite end of the world.

Ellen: So they're up at the north, and penguins are down at the south.

Christian: Yeah, yeah. Although I think there was a Happy Feet movie where they included a puffin for some reason.

Ellen: Nooo, no puffins in Happy Feet. I've seen that movie 46 times.

Christian: No no no, it was like Happy Feet 3 or something.

Ellen: Oh, you lost me there. I'm sorry. I saw the first one 46 times. I don't know about the other ones.

Christian: It's a banger. So let's talk about what these guys look like. Black and white are their main feather colors, and then their bill is pretty colorful and large and triangular in shape. They have these sad eyes.

Ellen: They're so sad! They look so sad.

Christian: And they have a orange feet and they have wings that act as flippers underwater.

Ellen: Versatile!

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: This is an amphibious wing.

Christian: So much like penguins, they do use their wings as flippers underwater. Trying to think of how else I could describe these little guys....

Ellen: Bold color choices.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: High contrasting. Black, white, orange. Got It.

Christian: They seem a little, a little, uh, thick I would say. Right? Their bodies seem a little big for the rest of their body.

Ellen: A slight chonk.

Christian: I think it's super duper cute. So how big these guys are. So lengthwise, is 10.2 to 11.4 inches or 26 to 29 centimeters. I was going to say chicken size , but

Ellen: One chicken. That's our unit of measurement.

Christian: A much cuter chicken. They weigh from 10.9 to 19.4 ounces or 310 to 550 grams. Their wingspan is 20.9 inches or 53 centimeters.

Ellen: Okay. A little size to them. This is a cold chicken.

Christian: So as their name might imply, they are found usually around the Atlantic Ocean at sea, and that's when they're outside of breeding season. They're usually out at the ocean.

Ellen: Sure.

Christian: However, when it is breeding season, that's when they come to a land. So this is the majority of pictures you see of puffins are usually during their breeding season. So for breeding season, they are found on the coasts of the North Atlantic from Canada to Norway, and south to Spain. And in between all that, Iceland is the home to half of the world's population.

Ellen: Okay Iceland, I see you.

Christian: A lot of them in Iceland. Um, but in North America, they're found primarily off of the eastern coast of Canada and just barely into the United States, around the state of Maine. But, as you cross the Atlantic Ocean, like they said, you know, it's all the way down to Spain, so all of the western European countries. There's lots of good places in the UK for example, to see them.

Ellen: I'm a little jealous.

Christian: So yeah, us being in the southeast of the United States, we'd have to travel pretty far to come to see these in the wild.

Ellen: Yep. They're not close.

Christian: They belong to the taxonomic order... I'm going to try my hardest here.

Ellen: I believe in you.

Christian: Charadri... I'm going to try my hardest here.

Ellen: Let's hear it.

Christian: Charadriiformes.

Ellen: Okay. That's pretty good.

Christian: Yeah. The notable evolutionary relatives there are, basically other puffins. There are different kinds of puffins out there.

Ellen: Oh, there's a bunch of puffins!

Christian: A couple. Um, the Atlantic puffin is known as the common puffin.

Ellen: Oh, the basic puffin! Your starter kit puffin.

Christian: So I'm going to jump right into the rating. First category is effectiveness.

Ellen: And what is effectiveness, Christian?

Christian: Effectiveness is how well do they do what they do.

Ellen: These are physical adaptations.

Christian: Yes. I'm giving the puffin a 7 out of 10.

Ellen: That's decent! That's decent.

Christian: Yeah! They're very good swimmers and fishers. So they can fly, of course, they spend a lot of their time out in the ocean just kind of bobbing on the surface of the ocean, but they're very good swimmers. Their wings act as very good flippers to catch pretty fast fish in the water. Another thing I thought it was interesting, evidently this is pretty common for seabirds, bu the puffin is long lived, so they have an average life span of 30+ years.

Ellen: That's a lot for a bird!

Christian: Yeah. A bird the size of a chicken, right? Although now I think about it, I don't know what the average lifespan of a chicken is.

Ellen: Well, now I know that parrots will live for a very long time, right? Parrots will live for like 70, 80 years, but I wouldn't have thought that from like, a puffin.

Christian: Yeah, right? But evidently that's a common trait in seabirds in general.

Ellen: Very cool.

Christian: The oldest recorded puffin lived to be 41.

Ellen: Aw. He's an old one.

Christian: Yeah. And that was, and they only knew that because of how it was banded, so they might live longer. It's just at the time the technology used in those bands might not have lasted long enough to get the true oldest living puffin.

Ellen: So like, at least 41.

Christian: Yeah, sure. Next category: Ingenuity. So this is where they, do you know how, how do they do smart things like a...

Ellen: Behavioral adaptations.

Christian: Sure. That could be tool use, or interesting hunting methods, that kind of thing.

Ellen: Strat. Pro strat.

Christian: Yeah. Wildlife meta. So, ingenuity, I'm giving again a 7 out of 10.

Ellen: Okay.

Christian: Um, so here's something interesting here. So they only nest in established nesting grounds. What that kind of means is they're only going to nest in areas that already have puffins nesting there.

Ellen: Wait a second... How do they establish the nesting ground?

Christian: Well, I guess there's gotta be some group that's like, Oh yeah, this is where I was last year. Here we go. And then everyone else is like, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Go, go, go, go.

Ellen: Sure, but how did the first puffin get there? Were they just there forever?

Christian: I guess it's the sea chicken or the sea egg first conundrum. I'm sure there's a better way to explain this. So I'm going to pull from a different source for this one. For this type of a behavior, I'm getting this from projectpuffin.audubon.org which I'll talk a little bit more about what project puffin is a little later.

Ellen: Oh, this is from the Audubon project?

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: Okay, cool. Cool. Cool. Just make sure you're saying audubon and not autobahn, like...

Christian: Audubon?

Ellen: Audubon.

Christian: Okay. So what this project has done is they create decoys.

Ellen: Excellent.

Christian: So they create decoys of puffins that are meant for social attraction and conservation.

Ellen: Lawn ornaments.

Christian: Not Quite, I've never seen the bunch of flamingos on someone's front lawn.

Ellen: Well, lawn ornaments for Iceland, I don't know.

Christian: Here's a quote from the website: "Developed by National Audubon Society's Dr Stephen Kress, social attraction is a method to attract colonial seabirds to safe, often historic nesting sites using social cues. Colonial seabirds recognize the presence of other birds as evidence for suitable habitat and are drawn in by the appearance of a thriving colony. Managers can create this illusion using decoys and audio systems, depending on the species. The method also may use artificial boroughs, mirrors and decoy eggs and chicks.

Ellen: Oh, decoy eggs?!

Christian: Yes.

New Speaker: Oh my gosh.

Christian: So the whole idea is to make, you know, the puffins think, "Oh! This neighborhood's already up and coming. I think I'll just move right on in."

Ellen: So this is like the opposite of a territorial effect then, right? Like you'll see animals that like won't come to an area because they think there's another one already there. This is like the opposite effect.

Christian: Yeah. I think it's kind of a two factor thing. So one, it gives credence to like, oh, there's everything we need here. If there are other birds here, this must be a good place. But also second, I think there's a survivability aspect there. And when you have a bunch of animals together, when you have to deal with predators, you know, like maybe they'll eat my neighbor instead of me.

Ellen: Sure. Yeah. Law of large numbers, one of you is bound to survive.

Christian: So with the decoys, they make decoys that look just like the Atlantic puffin and-

Ellen: Where can I get one? Can I buy one for my house?

Christian: You know, I bet you could.

Ellen: I just want to have one. We don't live where puffins are, I just want one.

Christian: Please! Here!

Ellen: On the off chance a puffin flies by in Florida.

Christian: I'm kind of curious now, can I just order one? There's got to be a minimum.

Ellen: Amazon prime.

Christian: So one of the things that made me look for this, and you actually pointed this out to me, but there was a social media post that showed a picture of one of these decoys and a real life puffin standing next to it. So the decoys are usually built with a metal rod, just a single metal rod, stuck into the ground or a base of some sort to keep it looking like it's standing. So the whole idea of this little social media post was like, oh look at this puffin, and the puffin has one of its legs up. It looks like it's imitating the decoy.

Ellen: Yes, it's adorable. It's so cute.

Christian: I couldn't find any real credence to this idea. It may have looked like it was like a one time thing. It's not like all puffins are out there learning to stand on one leg.

Ellen: Oh, so like maybe it was just like a lucky shot, like the photographer just happened to take the picture as the bird was like, moving in a way that made it look like it was like standing on one leg.

Christian: I mean, at best, yes, this single puffin was imitating, but it's not like it's something catching fire among the puffin populus.

Ellen: This is not a, this is not a trending topic? This isn't the latest craze? Like how in like 2010 or so, there was planking, then there was dabbing, and now there's puffining, where you just stand on one leg.

Christian: All right, so I'm going to move on to the final category: Aesthetics.

Ellen: Can't wait.

Christian: So as a our listeners can probably guess from how much I've been gushing over this bird thus far...

Ellen: Well they don't know this, but you've been doing this all day long.

Christian: It's true.

Ellen: All day long. So in our office, our computers are set side by side, and I've just- all day long, I've just been listening to Christian periodically, maybe every 20 minutes or so, I hear, "THEY'RE JUST SO CUTE."

Christian: Yep. That has been my life for the past several hours. So aesthetics, 10 out of 10.

Ellen: No surprise there.

Christian: Um, as I said before, and I will say again, super duper cute.

Ellen: Yeah. For real though. They have the sad eyes and then they have the big old Schnoz of a nose, it's just so cute.

Christian: They make kinda cute sounds too.

Ellen: Do they really?

Christian: Yeah, they're kind of like a, I wouldn't say a honking exactly.

Ellen: They look like they would honk.

Christian: Listeners, just go out, find some audio, treat yourself.

Ellen: They look like they would honk because of the shape of like their- they have that really like, thick beak.

Christian: Yeah. So they have a triangular bill, they have a black collar that separates their face and their white belly.

Ellen: Oh, they're dressed up all nice...

Christian: Right? They have black wings and their back is also black.

Ellen: So precious.

Christian: But however, I didn't know this about puffins: they look different depending on the breeding season. So outside of the breeding season, their face is greyer and the bill lacks the yellow highlights.

Ellen: Huh! That's really interesting.

Christian: Right? So most pictures you see of puffins are usually during the breeding season, which kind of makes sense because the only way you would see a puffin outside of the breeding season would be at the open ocean. There are pictures though, out there of them outside of the breeding season. It's just most of them are on land or close to shore during the breeding season.

Ellen: Sure.

Christian: And while we're talking about it, the juveniles, their bills are reddish orange and they're also, the bill itself is smaller.

Ellen: Are the baby puffins also cute?

New Speaker: I saw one picture of baby puffins. It was a little, a little chick with black feathers. It was very cute.

Ellen: I feel like with birds, you get the opposite effect that you get with most other animals. Where with most other animals, the baby version is much, much, much cuter than the adult version, but I feel like with birds it's the opposite effect. Right? Baby birds are usually hideous. I feel like baby birds usually do not... With the one exception, I think, being the ostrich. Baby ostriches are very cute because they have all the feathers and then when they grow up they have like bald heads and necks, but when they're babies they have all these downy feathers. But so I was wondering if like the puffin being very, very cute. I was wondering if like the babies...

Christian: I mean as far as bird chicks go, I say they're cute.

Ellen: Is the chick cuter than the adult?

Christian: No.

Ellen: Well there you have it.

Christian: So yeah, 10 out of 10 aesthetics.

Ellen: I guess they grow into their looks.

Christian: Sure, as many of us do.

Ellen: They're late bloomers.

Christian: So, with three scores of a 7, a 7 and a 10, that comes out to an overall score of 8 out of 10

Ellen: It's decent.

Christian: Right?

Ellen: That's pretty good.

Christian: So I've got lots of fun facts for these birdies.

New Speaker: Yes!

New Speaker: But first let's talk about conservation.

New Speaker: Okay.

New Speaker: They are listed as vulnerable. In North America in particular, there is a big problem with them being over hunted. So they were hunted for their meats, feathers, you name it.

Ellen: They don't really look like they would have that much meat on them, do they?

New Speaker: They do though.

New Speaker: Oh! Really?

Christian: I actually came across a somewhat upsetting picture of several de-feathered puffin bodies...

New Speaker: Skip, skip, skip, skip, skip, skip.

New Speaker: But yeah, I can see why they're hunted. It's the kind of bird that you would get enough out of to hunt.

Ellen: See: Chicken.

New Speaker: Exactly. So yeah, they were over hunted in North America greatly, so much so that they were gone from the United States entirely.

New Speaker: Oh Geez.

New Speaker: Yeah. Still in Canada though.

New Speaker: We didn't deserve them.

New Speaker: Yeah, no, but here's where Project Puffin comes back into play that I mentioned earlier. Project Puffin, you know, with their decoys and everything else they were doing, another part of their project was getting a puffin hatchlings from other places and bringing them to islands in north, uh, specifically the United States. So now there is a population of about 2000 puffins that breed in Maine.

Ellen: Aww!

Christian: Or islands off of the coast of Maine, rather.

New Speaker: Welcome back, puffins!

New Speaker: Yeah. So some of the things they're vulnerable to so obviously changes to the food supply and the warming ocean waters, specifically the warming of the water temperature can lessen the availability of their primary diet, which are sand eels.

New Speaker: Sand eels?

New Speaker: Yeah. It's actually just big family of fish. So that's not a specific species. It's a large family of small fish.

New Speaker: Oh, okay.

New Speaker: Yeah. They're also known as sand lances.

Ellen: I feel like this is so common for any sort of fish that just kind of has a longish shape for people to just be like, it's an eel. Sure. Cause those, this was the case of the electric eel too, right? Like it's not actually an eel. Are... Are there even eels? Do eels exist?

Christian: Somewhere. So yeah, that's their vulnerable status. Second fun fact, they are the official bird of Newfoundland and Labrador, Canada.

Christian: Love it. Excellent.

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: Excellent choice. You've all chosen wisely.

Christian: So my other fun facts about them, I think their whole reproduction cycle and how they raise chicks is interesting. First of all, they're considered to be somewhat monogamous, at least. So they're known to have mating pairs for several years with the same mate.

Ellen: Is this like, permanent monogamy or is this like serial monogamy where they'll like have one partner for a while and then a different partner later?

Christian: It was stated as several years. I'm not sure if that's because they just haven't studied it long enough to confirm lifelong monogamy, or maybe they do switch it up after a couple of years. I don't know.

New Speaker: Yeah. Okay.

New Speaker: At least partial.

Ellen: So it sounds like it's like a serial monogamy sort of thing.

New Speaker: Sure. I thought their courtship dance is very cute. It involves head bobbing and rubbing their bills together.

Ellen: Ohhh, that's so cute.

Christian: It is. It's super duper cute.

Ellen: I love it...

New Speaker: Uh, when they do mate, they only have a single egg.

New Speaker: Just the one...

New Speaker: Yep. And they don't do nests like in trees and that kind of thing, they do burrows. So kind of depending on the specific location, they'll dig a hole or they might even use spaces under boulders and that kind of thing.

Ellen: This makes sense for where they live, right. It's probably like a rocky area. They probably don't have a lot of sticks and twigs laying around and to make nest out of, right.

Christian: When the chick does hatch, both male and female takes turns hunting and feeding the chick.

Ellen: Okay. It's a little little egalitarian parenting going on.

Christian: Yeah. Teamwork. And then when the chick does fledge, you know, when they go out on their own, they don't breed for about three to six years.

New Speaker: Oh, they take their time.

Christian: So here's what's crazy, during that time period that from when they leave the nest and when they do become of breeding age, they go out to the ocean and they stay out in the ocean. So that's several years at the ocean.

Ellen: Sure. They're just working on themselves, okay? They're not ready. They just work on themselves and take care of themselves. And it's a very healthy self-care routine.

Christian: Also, they eat lots of stuff and are usually wet.

Ellen: Also my self care routine.

Christian: Oh. And uh, the final little interesting thing about their reproduction, the chicks are called pufflings

Ellen: Pufflings!

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: What else would they be? That's so cute!

Christian: This is probably a good time to mention the popular cartoon that I believe is on Netflix...

Ellen: Puffin Rock!

Christian: That's right.

Ellen: I love Puffin Rock. It's so cute.

Christian: So it's a, it's a cartoon that comes out of Ireland. It is based off of real life island called Puffin Island, of course. It turns out, by the way, there are several islands across the globe that are titled Puffin Island. This one is specifically off the coast of Ireland.

Ellen: Oh, okay. It's so cute by the way, it's such a cute little show.

Christian: It is, it is. And those are supposed to be Atlantic puffins, by the way.

Ellen: Excellent.

Christian: Um, which I was only able to confirm because I couldn't find anything about the show to say that. But I looked up the real life island and those are the kinds of puffins that go to that island.

Ellen: Oh, okay. I like the show because, so my five year old son went through a period of time where he was very, very into the show and we watched it a lot at home. But the show has like a lot of other animals from that area, right. There's characters that are like, um, shrews and foxes and other types of animals that live on the island. It's just such a cute little show.

Christian: So, I gotta ask and I haven't actually watched the show. What is the relationship with the fox?

Ellen: Oh, so the fox, it's really interesting because the fox is like very rude and like kind of like standoffish and kind of a jerk to the other animals. But like she's still their friend and like, I don't know, it's, it's...

Christian: That's weird...

Ellen: Well no, cause like, I don't know, there's this one episode where like she's trying to sleep in her cave and the other animals are bothering her and she keeps trying to get them to leave her alone and they keep like trying to get her to play with them and stuff. I don't know. It's just, it's cute.

Christian: So I say that it's weird because fox is, would be one of the main predators of breeding puffins.

Ellen: I'm pretty sure they actually mentioned that in the show. They're kind of scared of her and I don't know, it's just, she's kinda like the, um... She's kinda like the mean girl of puffin rock. Yeah. So she's like a little bit rude and kind of a diva, but I dunno, she's like still their buddy. Like there's a couple of times where like she helps them out anyway, and... yeah...

Christian: We wear fur on Wednesdays. Okay. So my last bit, this one's a bit of a, a different segment for us.

Ellen: Oh!

Christian: I was able to get some firsthand experience. So I have a friend, his name is Phil Cumming and he is a birdwatcher.

Ellen: Excellent.

Christian: Another name for that activity is birding. So what he does, he travels around to try and see rare birds. He keeps a journal of those birds and where and when he saw them, and I knew he's done some traveling to do this too, so I thought, you know, I know we live in Florida, but maybe, maybe he's been up in those parts where they are.

Ellen: He's not from Florida though. Right?

Christian: Correct. He and his family are from the UK.

Ellen: Okay.

Christian: Um, so I reached out to him and asked and sure enough, he has seen puffins.

Ellen: I'm so jealous. Like in the wild?

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: Wow!

Christian: But not in North America though, in the UK, which makes sense.

Ellen: That's so cool.

Christian: So yeah. You know, I talked to him and he said he visited a nesting colony on the Farne Islands off the coast of North Umberland, which is a part of the UK. He described it as a superb experience. He mentioned they nest with several other auks and more in those colonies.

Ellen: Oh, an auk is like a type of bird.

Christian: Yeah. So an auk is actually any bird of the Family Alcidae and the order Charadriiformes, the one I mentioned earlier. So the puffin is one of these, so he was saying, he was talking about things like razor bills, murres, terns and cormorants were everywhere on this island. And by the way, um, razorbills and murres are also auks. He said he thought there was well over a hundred thousand birds on this island.

Ellen: What? That's so many! Oh, I bet that was so cool.

Christian: Yeah, that sounds awesome. Um, we kind of started to talk about, you know, how they take care of their young and how they deal with other birds. He mentioned they're very dedicated parents and have a super specific diet and he said at least the ones in Britain did. He mentioned the sand eels, like I mentioned earlier. They are constantly under threat from big mean birds, like the greater black backed gulls and skuas.

Ellen: Oh, you leave them alone! The skuas were the mean birds in Happy Feet?

Christian: I think so. Yeah, I think so. So one, they'll go for chicks and eggs of course. Um, but also they participate in stealing food while the puffin is trying to feed their young.

Ellen: Oh! We've talked about this before.

Christian: Yes. And the term escapes me now.

Ellen: Kleptoparasitism.

Christian: There it is. So yeah, so these kinds of birds, you know, as the puffin is bringing back fish for their chick and they'll have a big mouth full of these fish, you know, these, these big birds will bother them until they drop the food and then the bigger bird will just go take that food.

Ellen: Rude.

Christian: Yeah. Honestly.

Ellen: Can you not?

Christian: So it was great chatting with Phil about puffins.

Ellen: Excellent. Okay. We love to hear firsthand accounts of wildlife encounters. So I would urge anybody who has any like, really cool wildlife stories to send them to us and we will give you a shout out and share your experience on the show.

Christian: Yeah, I'll even narrate them in a dramatic tone.

Ellen: I would love that. I would love that. We need to make that a new segment.

Christian: Excellent. All right, my dear. That was the Atlantic puffin.

Ellen: Well done. That was great! What a good animal and well reported.

Christian: Thank you so much.

Ellen: You welcome.

Christian: All right, hun. What animal have you got for us this week?

Ellen: This week, I'm bringing to the table the aardwolf. The scientific name is Proteles cristata. It means no worries...

Christian: What.

Ellen: For the rest of your days.

Christian: No, it doesn't!

Ellen: Proteles cristata!

Christian: Oh, nooo. How long have you been waiting to do this?

Ellen: So the aardwolf was requested by our listener Riley Elmgren. Thank you Riley. This was a phenomenal suggestion. I'm very glad we got to talk about it. And just before I really launch into it, I'm getting my information from the Kruger National Park and the Animal Diversity Web, which is a learning resource that is hosted online by the University of Michigan. They have a lot of, they had a lot of really good information on the aardwolf. So to introduce you to the Aardwolf, they're about... They're between one and two feet tall at the shoulder, that's like one to two chickens. For our metric listeners, that's 40 to 50 centimeters.

Christian: I thought you were saying, "here's our units in chickens for our metric listeners."

Ellen: Well, you already introduced the chicken standard. So, um, 15 to 33 pounds or 7 to 15 kilograms. This is about the size of our dog. except a little taller. They're a little more slenderly built. They do look very dog like. They are, you know, quadruped carnivore, have that kind of look about them. They are, you'll find them in eastern and southern Africa and you'll really get what their appearance looks like when I tell you that their taxonomic family is Hyaenidae.

Christian: Oh.

Ellen: Yeah, this is actually a type of hyena. So there are four species in the hyena family. The other three are the spotted hyena, the brown hyena, and the striped hyena. So the aardwolf is farther removed from the other hyenas, so it looks very different from the other ones. The other three, mostly- they're more closely related. They kind of look like each other. The aardwolf is very much distinguishable from those. So the aardwolf is a lot smaller than other hyenas. It's a little more thinly built. It's kind of little. It has these little tiny little feet. It is kind of slender. Its fur is this tan brown color with black stripes. It has a black muzzle and a black bushy tail and it has these really big triangular ears and a mane of long fur on the back of its neck that goes down the back of its neck and all the way down the spine. And when it's agitated, the hairs stand up straight to make it look bigger. But, it looks like a dog. It looks a lot like a dog that looks like a jackal or a fox or something like that. And hyenas for the most part look like dogs, right?

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: They're actually in the Feliformia suborder, which means they are more closely related to cats than dogs. Yeah, the aardwolf is just basically a little hyena. It's just a tiny one. Now for effectiveness, I gave the aardwolf a 9 out of 10.

Christian: Alright.

Ellen: Whereas the other species of hyenas are carnivores that eat meat and they're kind of known for that like, bone crunching power...

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: Aardwolves are specialized insectivores.

Christian: Really?

Ellen: They eat bugs. Specifically, they eat termites, and even more specifically they eat harvester termites of the family... Trinerviter...nimes....

Christian: Woah.

Ellen: Hold on, let me try again. Trinerviterm... Trinervitermes.

Christian: Okay!

Ellen: So these, these are also called snouted harvester termites. These are actually toxic to eat. They produce a toxin that discourages predators, since they actually forage for food up on the ground. Not like, hiding underground or they don't like burrow underground or anything. They forage above ground and their self-defense mechanism is a toxin that they produce. But the aardwolf is immune to the toxin and can eat them without any problem. The aardwolf, it's immune to this toxin, which I gave it an effectiveness point for a resistance adaptation. They have been reported very rarely eating carrion or like, small animals. So they do sometimes eat meat, but it's not very common. Even some people have said, oh no, they're not actually eating the meat. They're actually eating like maggots and beetles and stuff around the carrion. But it's kinda, the jury's kind of out. They eat meat sometimes, but they really don't prefer it.

Christian: Interesting.

Ellen: So aardwolves eat the bugs with their sticky, bumpy tongue. They have a tongue that's really, really, it's broad and it's very sticky. And when you look at it, it actually looks like a cat's tongue cause it's covered in bumps. So that's for gripping the termites. It picks them up off the ground by licking them. The aardwolf can eat between 200,000 and 300,000 termites per night.

Christian: Woah...

Ellen: Yes, they're nocturnal. So overnight they can eat two to 300,000 termites. So hyenas are known for their really, really powerful bone-crunching teeth, right?

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: They have these, these just really thick skulls and very dense teeth. Now the aardwolf teeth are actually really small and much more thin. So they still have those canine teeth and they have like, some like molars and incisors and stuff, but they're very, very small. They're kind of like peg like, so they don't really do much chewing. Right? They're eating bugs. They don't have to chew bugs. They really don't have much use for their teeth. So their teeth have adapted to be very, very small, but their stomach is very muscular. Their stomach actually does all the grinding. So like, rather than chewing with their teeth, they kind of chew with their stomach. Yeah, that's kind of weird. Right?

Christian: So like, are the termites still alive when they get to the stomach, I wonder?

Ellen: I mean, they're probably really not like dwelling on them. They're probably just like licking them and swallowing them immediately. Right? Like it's just a termite,don't worry about it. So they do actually still have those powerful jaw muscles, but that's mostly for defending themselves or fighting each other.

Christian: So are these the kind of termites that are in like big mounds, or they're just...?

Ellen: So they do have like mounds, but they're probably not the ones that you're thinking of that are like, towering in the air.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: So, their very specialized diet kind of limits their habitable range to only areas where these species of termites are found. So that's kind of why I took a point off for effectiveness, is that they're so specialized that they can kind of only live in very certain areas. You know, like they don't have a lot of versatility, but, they're super specialized, so they're really good at doing what they're doing. They just have this one thing that they do and that's eat bugs, but they're really good eating those bugs. So yeah, that's my 9 out of 10 for effectiveness. They're well adapted to eat these little dudes. Ingenuity: I gave them an 8 out of 10. so I didn't really know how much I was going to find on aardwolf intelligence, but I found a couple of things. I thought this was really interesting: Even though they're fully capable of it, aardwolves do not eat all of the termites in the colony. They only eat some and they leave behind enough live termites to repopulate.

Christian: Okay...

Ellen: And then they move on and then they will revisit that mount every few months or so. So they'll like, give the termites time to build their numbers back up, and then a few months later they'll come back in and eat again. They're allowing their food to regenerate, they're not devastating the population, even though they could.

Christian: That's pretty smart.

Ellen: Yeah. I thought that was pretty bright of them. So they do this by memorizing the location of mounds of termites in their territories and they cycle through those mounds throughout the year to make sure that the termite supply is replenishing itself. So during the year they're going from mound to mound, they have this territory and they know where all the termite mounds are and they'll visit each one like throughout the year to make sure they're cycling through and give all the termites a chance to rebuild.

Christian: That's pretty awesome.

Ellen: Yeah. So that takes a lot of smarts, right? You have to like, know your territory well enough to know where the mountains are, which ones you've been to recently, which one it's time to go to again. Like it just, it takes a lot, right?

Christian: I mean, even we as humans messed that up.

Ellen: I could not do that.

Christian: Well, what I mean is, you know, just like we were talking with the puffin, you know we often over hunt things.

Ellen: Yeah. We ourselves have not figured that out yet. So yeah, I gave the aardwolf some points for, for using moderation.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: They're using moderation. So they're being responsible. Unlike some species I know. So something else that I thought was neat is that the aardwolf is nocturnal, so it spends the day time resting in their underground dens to escape the heat, but during the winter, their favorite termite, the snouted harvester termite goes inactive. So they eat a different species of termites to kind of bide their time until their favorite ones come back out. So the ones that they eat during the winter are active during like, the afternoon time. So the aardwolf will actually switch its habit up and become diurnal so that it's awake early enough to catch these termites when they're out. Yeah, so they'll like adjust their activity cycle to match their prey.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: I thought that was pretty cool.

Christian: Yeah!

Ellen: Other species of hyenas live in packs and they typically will have a den where the whole pack lives together, but aardwolves don't. They don't live in packs. They typically will live either on their own as a solitary animal or they'll live in a mated pair with another aardwolf that they're, that they are mated with. There's a reason for this. So hyenas eat meat and carrion, they pick it up and drag it back to their den and share it with their pack. Aardwolves can't do that. You can't exactly pick up a termite and bring it back to your den, right? So they don't really have a prey that they can share with other members of their pack. So there's no reason for them to be in a pack, right? They can't share. So that's why they don't live in a pack cause it would not benefit them.

Ellen: They can't bring termites home. So they have to forage for themselves. They do mate monogamously and they raise pups together with females staying in the den and caring for the pups while the male protects the den from threats outside. So not as egalitarian as the puffins, but a similar dynamic, right, where they'll have like a mated pair that, that stays together and raises the offspring. So that's my 8 out of 10 for ingenuity. I think they're pretty bright little critters. Aesthetics: 10 out of 10. I know we got tens across the board this episode, right? We got a couple of lookers here.

Christian: This is the aesthetic episode.

Ellen: This is a very aesthetic episode. This is a very, um, visually successful episode. So, 10 out of 10. This is a tiger puppy. It's a little puppy and it's covered in stripes and it's just so good. It's so cute. They have stripes, they have giant ears, they have a bushy tail, they have teeny tiny paws, they have a long hair down the base of their neck that looks like a rad mullet and that's pretty great for me. It's absolute perfection. Aardwolf has it all. If you've ever played the video game The Last Guardian, some visual inspiration for Trico in the last guardian was from the aardwolf.

Christian: I could see that.

Ellen: Yeah. You see it more so in the face. Because Trico does have like those big huge paws and like, kind of some more like catlike qualities, but you can really see it in the face. It's like pretty much the exact same muzzle and ears and like head shape and even the same black muzzle with like the black sort of almost tear marks down the side? Yeah. When you look at, you look at a side by side of Trico and an aardwolf, the face is definitely there.

Christian: Interesting.

Ellen: Yeah. And I loved that game, so I was happy to see that and to see that parallel.

Christian: Cool.

Ellen: Yep. So with a 9 for effectiveness, an 8 for ingenuity and 10 for aesthetics, that brings us to a 9 out of 10 for the aardwolf.

Christian: Excellent.

Ellen: This is a very good animal. So, gonna wrap up with some uh, conservation information. They're of least concern.

Christian: Really?

Ellen: They don't have a large territory that they live in. Like they don't have a wide range of places where they live. But in the places that they do live, their population numbers are doing pretty well. They're doing okay.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: Yeah, there's not really a lot of threats to the aardwolf. They can sometimes be preyed on by like, larger animals that might live there like jackals or something. So the aardwolf is actually a very good friend to the human. So think about it, right? They don't eat any animals that we would be using as livestock, right? They don't eat chickens or cows or anything like that. They provide pest control by limiting termite populations in the area. This is a great friend. You really want these around. This is like having really, really cute ground-dwelling bats around, right. They're like, they're just, you keep them around to keep the termites down. So this is a good friend. Now, sometimes aardolves will be mistaken for a fox or a jackal by a farmer, orr a lot of times farmers in that area will have domestic dogs that they have trained to kill foxes and jackals. And either the farmer or the dog will confuse the aardwolf for one of those animals that could be like threats to their livestock, and so they will kill the aardwolf by mistake.

Ellen: So that- every once in a while that happens. Though there aren't any sort of, like, people usually don't go out of their way to kill these little dudes because they are totally harmless. Honestly, they're not gonna do anything to you. Like they're fine. They're very shy. They don't really hang out near humans. They don't really, they're shy, they're nocturnal. You're really not going to see them very often and they just, they really won't bother you. I've seen some videos online of people like feeding, like rehabilitated aardwolves or aardwolves like in zoo exhibits and they'll just eat right out of your hand.

Christian: Wow.

Ellen: They're very sweet and they're gentle and they're adorable and they're just very good friends. So in Jacksonville, Florida where we live, there is a brewery called Aardwolf and they make a beer called Aardwolf. Um, which I have been to one time. I went with my aunt and it's lovely and very good beer. And when I heard about it, I assumed that the aardwolf that was like depicted in like their logo and stuff and the name, I assumed that this was a cryptid of some sort. I assumed it was like a jackalope. Like I didn't think it was real. I thought it was mythological. I thought it was like, a cross between an aardvark and a wolf or something like that. I just kind of assumed it wasn't real. But when I, I got to kind of look it up and I realized it was real and it's also great,. It's so good. So I was really glad to see that. But actually, that prefix "aard" comes from the Dutch word for earth. So it's like an earth wolf, which is the same prefix as aardvark.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: So they both have similar names because they come from the same language.

Ellen: Cool.

Ellen: Yeah. But no relation to the aardvark. They have nothing to do with them actually, but still both very, very cute.

Christian: Also nothing to do with wolves, it sounds like.

Ellen: Yeah. Nothing to do with either of them. Completely unrelated to either one. So yeah, this is a, this is, I haven't had a chance to talk about hyenas on the show yet, so I was glad for this lesser-known hyena to be our sort of intro to. I think hyenas get a bad rep and they are not as bad as people kind of make them out to be. So I'm glad for the gentle and sweet perfect angel, the aardwolf, to be our intro to hyenas on this show.

Christian: Oh, how lovely.

Ellen: Yes, this is a good friend. So that's the aardwolf.

Christian: Yay! Thank you, honey. That was great.

Ellen: You're welcome. So that's all we have for this episode. Thank you so much for tuning in. Thank you to everybody who has been listening and also to everybody who has been recommending the show to your friends. We've been seeing our numbers steadily climb and that's been really delightful to see.

Christian: It's cool stuff.

Ellen: Yeah, this is great! So, um, you know, keep, keep letting your friends know that there's a cool animal podcast you listen to called Just the Zoo of Us and we can be listened to on you know, Spotify, iTunes, Google, some other different podcast listening apps. So you know, whichever app you are most comfortable using, use that. You can connect with us on our Facebook page by searching the title of the show. We are also on Twitter and Instagram, so find us on there. It should be pretty easy to find. There's only one of us... (there's actually zoo of us!)

Christian: Oh! There it is!

Ellen: Yikes, that was bad. I'm so sorry. If you have an animal species that you want to hear us review, you can submit it to us either by our Facebook page, if that's easier for you or at thezooofus@gmail.com. A transcript of this episode will be made available at justthezooofus.home.blog and as a final note, we would like to thank Louie Zong for the use of his song "Adventuring" from his album Bee Sides.

Christian: So, so good.

Ellen: It's excellent, as is the rest of his music, so go check him out. Okay. I think that's all we have for this week.

Christian: Thank you... So much...

Ellen: Why did you say that so weird?

Christian: That didn't work. Didn't work.

Ellen: Can you come up with a better sign off and it can't be, "I'm going to go see Spiderman"

Christian: Next episode: spider, and... Man.

Ellen: Okay. All right. That's going to do it for us here at Just the Zoo of Us. Thank you for listening.

Christian: Thanks everyone.

Ellen: We'll see you next week.

Christian: Byeeee!.

Ellen: Byeeee.

8: Florida Panther & Red Lionfish

Christian: Hi everyone, this is Christian Weatherford.

Ellen: And this is Ellen Weatherford.

Christian: And you are listening to Just the Zoo of Us, where we take your recommendations for animals and rate them in categories such as effectiveness, ingenuity and aesthetics on a scale of... Zero to 10? I don't know if we've established a minimum.

Ellen: Well, you gave a 1, that's the closest we've gotten to zero.

Christian: That's true. Maybe we'll save that for future. And we are not zoological experts, we do this out of fun. We do some research and we try to do our best here.

Ellen: And if you catch a mistake that we've made, we can be connected with on social media and feel free to call us out and let us know if we got something wrong and we will do our best to make it right.

Christian: Definitely. All right, so I believe it is my turn to go first this week.

Ellen: It is. Let me hear what you got this week.

Christian: This animal was given to us by our friend Julie Gilson on a Facebook comment I believe.

Ellen: Thank you Julie.

Christian: Yes. So this week we've got the Florida Panther. So the Florida panthers is known by a couple of different names. Puma is one of them.

Ellen: Oh, okay, so a puma is the same thing as the Florida Panther. These are not different animals.

Christian: Yeah, yeah. And the scientific name, two different ones because there's a bit of a debate around the appropriate sub species, but one of them is Puma concolor cougar, whereas the other one is Puma concolor coryi, and I'll talk about why there's that differentiation a little later. So for the Florida Panther, I'm pulling most of my information from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife website. So let's get right into it. The Florida Panther: basic size for an adult, it differs a little bit between male and female in terms of weight, that is. So a male will weigh anywhere from 100 to 160 pounds, or 45 and a half to 72 kilograms. So that's pretty big, right?

Ellen: It's big cat.

Christian: I guess a lighter human or maybe average. I'm a little bit bigger than average.

Ellen: Oh, lighter, you think? That's a lighter human? That's good to know.

Christian: Oh nooo... A female cougar weighs 64 to 100 pounds, or 29-45 and a half kilograms. As far as their length is concerned, from nose to tail, 5.9 to 7.2 feet or 1.8 to 2.2 meters long.

Ellen: That's bigger than I would've thought based on the weights that you gave me.

Christian: Yeah, they're, they're big, but they're not chunky. They're agile.

Ellen: Oh, they're slim. Compact.

Christian: Yeah. And not, I guess I wouldn't say- they're not cheetah slim.

Ellen: Sure.

Christian: But they are lighter than say, lions.

Ellen: Okay. So these are built for agility.

Christian: Right. So the location, as the name might imply, Ii Florida in the United States, but specifically southern Florida, a particular area. Uh, so that's their breeding area, but males have been found to farther north, even as far north as Georgia. Their taxonomic order is carnivora and the notable evolutionary relatives are just other subspecies of panther. So again, going over our rating system: three categories, we have effectiveness, ingenuity and aesthetics. Effectiveness is how well do they do what they do. And ingenuity is, you know, uh, intelligence for those out there in the D&D scene like us.

Ellen: I would even- I would put also wisdom and probably even charisma into the ingenuity category.

New Speaker: I can see that, I guess it's a little dynamic, Huh?

Ellen: Your mental traits.

New Speaker: Yeah. And then finally, aesthetics. That one's pretty self explanatory. How cute they be. In each of these, we give a rating out of 10.

Ellen: A completely arbitrary, completely made up rating out of 10.

New Speaker: It's true. So don't @ me. Effectiveness: I'm giving the Florida Panther an 8 out of 10.

Ellen: That's pretty good.

New Speaker: It's a very effective hunter in its environment. The Florida panther goes after deer, wild hogs, raccoons, armadillos, rabbits, and even livestock and pets.

Ellen: Sounds like anything smaller than the panther is fair game.

New Speaker: Yeah, they're pretty, uh, they're pretty good at what they do in terms of hunting. They're usually very reclusive. It's kind of rare to see them honestly. And being a Florida native, I don't think I've ever actually seen a wild Florida panther.

Ellen: I've definitely never seen one outside of a zoo.

New Speaker: Yeah. Although now that I think about it, I guess I've never been to the exact area that they're known to be in.

Ellen: Yeah, we're up in the northern side of Florida.

New Speaker: Yeah. So yeah, 8 out of 10 for effectiveness. Ingenuity: um, I didn't find much to give them any points here. I'm just giving them a, I guess a bland six out of 10 for being, you know, a hunter, a cornerstone species Predator,

Ellen: Middle of the road.

New Speaker: Yeah.

Ellen: Nothing special, but not the worst.

New Speaker: Yeah, for sure. So like I mentioned, they're reclusive. Uh, I guess a negative I would give them is they're not very good with dealing with automobiles. They often are killed in automobile accidents.

Ellen: Mmm... The panther's only known natural predator.

New Speaker: I did see something that said the American alligator is a natural predator, but I could not find a source for that.

Ellen: Oh! That was... I said that in episode one.

New Speaker: Oh, did you!

Ellen: I think. Maybe.

New Speaker: Source: Ellen.

Ellen: Source is me!

New Speaker: So, right. 6 out of 10 for ingenuity. Aesthetics: I'm giving a full 10 out of 10.

Ellen: You're really dishing out the 10 out of 10s in aesthetics, aren't you?

New Speaker: I think Florida panthers are some of the cutest things around.

New Speaker: Oh my goodness.

New Speaker: They're absolutely adorable. So for those who may have never seen a picture of these, and just a quick reference here, the mountain lion is pretty much the same species, so if you've seen pictures of those,you already know what they, what these look like, but their whole body is tan and the midline of the back is a darker brown or rust color, and their belly is white of course.

Ellen: Excellent.

New Speaker: And the tip of their tail, the back of the ears and the muzzle are black.

Ellen: It's kind of a pointed look. It has some accents.

New Speaker: It's fierce.

Ellen: You said that about the lynx too.

New Speaker: There's some, there's some common aesthetic choices here. Florida panthers, very, very cute. And I assume, based on pictures and what I've seen, their fur looks super soft.

Ellen: I've never touched one.

New Speaker: Me neither.

Ellen: And you know what? Sadly, I probably never will.

Christian: That's probably for the best though, I imagine. So if you thought the adults were cute...

Ellen: Oh boy.

New Speaker: The kittens are even cuter.

Ellen: I have seen a picture of the baby Florida panther kittens recently and came to the revelation that they have spots.

Christian: Yeah! They're spotted, which they grow out of as they grow older, but also they usually have these blue eyes as kittens.

Ellen: Ohhh. Too Precious.

New Speaker: They're really, really cute.

Ellen: Yeah. I didn't realize that they had these, these little spots on them because by the time they're grown, they're just the solid tan color.

Christian: Yeah. So full 10 out of 10 aesthetics for the Florida Panther.

Ellen: Excellent.

New Speaker: So with the three scores of 8, 6 and 10, that gives us an average of 8 out of 10.

Ellen: That's a good cat.

New Speaker: It's a very good, really good cat. So earlier I mentioned about the differentiation in their scientific naming. So this is because there has been some disagreement on how to categorize the subspecies of the Puma concolor. So at one point there was over 30 sub species, some consider the Florida panther to be its own subspecies...

Ellen: As it rightfully should be. We deserve our own panther.

Christian: But based on a 2014 study of mitochondrial DNA of the Puma, they've, well I won't say they, but a lot of people consider there to be one subspecies for all of the Puma that are in the North and Central America. So the Mountain Lion, the Florida Panther, all of those considered to be the same subspecies. Okay.

Ellen: I think of the word "cougar" when I think of like an umbrella term to describe all of these sorts of North American mountain lions.

Christian: Yeah. So that's actually the sub species name. So it's Puma concolor cougar to describe that group, whereas other groups still consider the Florida panther to be its own sub species, which is where that other sub species name coryi comes from. C-O-R-Y-I, not sure if I'm pronouncing that right.

Ellen: It's all right. You're doing your best.

New Speaker: So here's something interesting. The conservation status of the Florida Panther, um, I think a lot of natives of Florida already aware, but they are in fact endangered.

Ellen: Poor kitties.

New Speaker: Yeah. So a lot of that has to do with the loss and degradation of their habitat, but also their habitat being separated from each other. I think we talked about this with the Asian elephant, right?

Ellen: Right, similar concept.

New Speaker: Yeah, where something kind of splits their environments and it's having a problem with the groups getting into other groups.

Ellen: Yeah. So that makes breeding and mating difficult, and then that leads to decrease genetic diversity, and then inbreeding and it's not good for the species in the long run.

New Speaker: Yeah, so it's funny you mention that because with the Florida panther, they've had problems with a lack of genetic diversity because what happens is maybe a big roadway will split their habitat. So what they found is Florida panthers, will either not cross those roadways anymore or they will die trying. Right. So what'll happen is you'll have smaller and smaller groups that are breeding, you have inbreeding going on. So one way they tried to help this is they brought eight female pumas from Texas and kind of introduced them into the southern Florida area. And after a while, they had over 20 kittens, and then remove those that were still living, cause some passed away because of natural causes. But after they did that and you know, more recent studies, they're already seeing the benefits of that. So introducing that group from a different part of the country is helping them with their genetic diversity.

Ellen: But those are Texas panthers...

New Speaker: So this goes back to it, right? So no matter what your flavor, they're still the same species, right?

Ellen: I guess...

New Speaker: So what they're really arguing is their sub species.

Ellen: Sure. But still they're not OUR Florida panthers.

New Speaker: So they're trying to bring them back, right. They're trying to help as much as they can. That their goal is to have three populations of at least 240 individuals, not counting parent dependent and kittens. The kittens do spend quite a bit of time with their mother, usually.

Ellen: Gosh, there aren't even that many?

New Speaker: No, there's not that many.

Ellen: Oh man. That's not very many at all.

New Speaker: Yeah. So ways to help, which I was surprised, um, how much literature there is on this, but some ways to help the Florida panther are to, one, drive slowly and panther country as they put it.

Ellen: Uh, what constitutes panther country?

New Speaker: So the territory of the Florida Panther is defined as the part of Florida that is just south of the Caloosahatchee river.

Ellen: Oh, okay. That's, that's way down there.

New Speaker: It is quite. Quite a ways. So yeah, number one to help is to make sure you drive slowly while you're in that area because like I mentioned earlier, they have a large amount of incidents where the panthers will die because of automobile collisions. And then second to help, they asked that you report any sightings or interactions to the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission at 1(888) 404-FWCC. So they ask you to do that so they have a better understanding of the movement and presence of the Florida Panther.

Ellen: You know, I've seen where they are posting like videos of motion activated cameras that have caught videos of panthers crawling around. It's really cool to watch.

Christian: It is. It is. And you can even find videos of the kind of more northwest relatives. The mountain lions, again, same species, but in that part of the country they're known as mountain lions. You can see them, you know, playing around in snow and eating... Caribou? I don't know if that's the correct animal.

Ellen: Eating ungulates. Various hoofed animals.

Christian: So the last way to help panthers: the Florida Panther Research and Management Trust Fund, it is primarily funded by owners of the Protect the Panthers specialty license plate. So you may have seen these around, these are Florida license plates on cars and they have the Florida panther smack dab in the middle. I think they're pretty cool looking.

Ellen: I need to go to the DMV right now.

Christian: So people that have these plates, they pay $25 towards this fund every year when they do their registration renewal, and that goes to supporting panther research. So again, that was the Florida Panther Research and Management Trust Fund.

Ellen: Oh, that's so great. I'm glad they do that. I'm going to have to, um, you know, I just kind of have like the default Florida license plate that has a little orange in the middle of it.

New Speaker: Yeah. Same.

Ellen: So I think next time I go to get my, uh, title or registration renewed, I'm going to ask them for the panther license plate.

Christian: Yeah. You know, there's a whole website on, on how to get those plates and how they work. Maybe we can include those as a description somewhere.

Ellen: Yeah, I'll throw them up on the social media.

New Speaker: Awesome. So that's all I have for the Florida Panther.

Ellen: Oh, thank you so much. That was so good. I really like this animal. And thank you, Julie for suggesting it.

Christian: Yes. Thank you, Julie. All right, Ellen, what do you got for us this week?

Ellen: The Red Lionfish. Yes. You probably know the fish that I'm talking about because this is a very popular fish to have in fish tanks. So you'll find these in a lot of like bougie aquariums. They're very visually impressive. So first of all, the red lion fish's, scientific name is Pterois volitans. That's with a silent p by the way, P-T-E-R-O-I-S volitans.

New Speaker: Oh, like a pterodactyl type thing.

Ellen: It's not similar to a pterodactyl, no.

Christian: I would be pterrified.

Ellen: Wow. Aw jeez, okay. So the information that I've got on the red lionfish I got from NOAA's National Ocean Service, the Florida Museum of Natural History, a couple of different articles from Smithsonian Magazine, and a slate.com article that I'll talk about a little bit later on. So to kind of introduce you to the lionfish, if you're not already familiar, this is not too big of a fish. It's 12 to 15 inches or 30 to 38 centimeters. So a little bit of a decent size, but it's not so big. Now, it's most easily identified by its... I know fish don't have plumage, but plumage is the word that I really want to use. The lionfish has this Mohawk of long, rigid spines and rays that jut outward from its body all along the, all along the spine and along like the bottom of it. It also has these long fanned out fins that have these sort of, they look like ribbons that trail behind the fins and also the tail fans out and it's just, it's extravagant.

New Speaker: Oh yeah.

Ellen: It has a very ornate appearance to it. So it's got these long spines sticking out everywhere. Also the entire body, including the spines and the fins, is covered in these alternating red and white zebra stripes. So that's where the red part of the name comes from. It's the red lion fish, but it has these red and white zebra stripes all over it. And also the name lionfish comes from the appearance of its long flowing fins and spines really makes the fish look a lot bigger than it is. And that kind of has a similar effect of the mane of a lion, of a male lion that, that big, poofy mane that really puffs it up and gives it a lot more size than it really has. It's, it's similar to a, to a lion. A lot of other people who deal closely with lionfish on a regular basis also draw parallels between the attitude of the lionfish and its namesake. Apparently they have similar personalities, but...

New Speaker: That's unfortunate.

Ellen: Yeah, I'll talk about that in a minute. So that's why they call it the lionfish. So originally, the lionfish is from the South Pacific and Indian oceans. So this is Australia, French Polynesia, Japan and Korea, that whole sort of area. However, these days you can find them throughout the western Atlantic Ocean. So all along the eastern coast of north and Central America as well as a heavy presence in the Caribbean Sea.

New Speaker: Wow, that's a big, it's a big chunk of space.

Ellen: Yes, it is. The family they belong to is called Scorpaenidae, also known as scorpion fish. This is a big family. There are hundreds of species of these scorpion fish and the common thread among scorpion fish is that they have these spines that you see on the lionfish. So one of the most notable relatives that I found of the lionfish is called the stone fish. And this is the world's most venomous fish. The number one, like most venomous fish in the world. Wow. It doesn't belong to the same family, but it is a pretty close relative. And I found that noteworthy, so I mentioned that.

New Speaker: Yeah, for sure. I believe I've heard of the media somewhere.

Ellen: Yeah, yeah. There's no shortage of coverage of these dudes. So for effectiveness, I gave these dudes a 7 out of 10. So the spines aren't just for appearances in all of those spines all along their body, they have these glands and the glands produce a really strong neuromuscular venom. So this is a super venomous fish. Now there aren't any published reports of death resulting from a sting from a lionfish, but boy does it hurt. It hurts real, real, real bad. So I collected a couple of quotes from the Internet from people. I've never been stung by a lionfish, so I collected a couple of quotes. Mike Ryan at Horizon Divers says, "it won't kill you, but it'll make you wish you were dead."

New Speaker: Oh man, that's intense.

Ellen: Mmhmm. Jeff McGregor, in the Smithsonian magazine article that I read describes, he says, "the guys on the dock will tell you that the sting of a lionfish is like getting hit hard by a hammer, then injecting the bruise with hot sauce."

New Speaker: Oh no...

Ellen: Yeah, it's very bad.

New Speaker: That's so graphic.

Ellen: Yeah. So you won't die from it, but you might as well. It's really, it hurts so bad. So they, this is kind of their primary defense mechanism, right? They've got these pointy spikes full of venom. What more do you need to keep yourself safe from predators?

New Speaker: Not much.

Ellen: And also that sort of visual indicator, those bright red and white stripes like, hey, don't mess with me.

New Speaker: Yeah, so it has the bark and then the bite to back it up.

Ellen: Yeah. It's not playing around now other than it's sort of defensive technique. It, it has this extremely quick strike. So the way they catch their prey is that they corner it. So they have this intimidation factor where they like, puff up their spines and they stretch their fins out so that they look bigger than they are and they corner the prey and then once they are close enough to it, they have a really, really fast strike. They really fast reflexes, but I mean they're really, really quick when they're striking, but other than that, they just kind of like slowly drift around. They're not in a hurry to particularly get anywhere. So their mouth is full of these really tiny little teeth that really just serve for grasping prey and holding them. But that's about it. They're not doing any damage with their teeth really, but they are very, very fast when they're catching prey, otherwise they're not fast at all. So that's why I gave them a 7 out of 10. They have pretty good defense, pretty good damage output. But you know, other than that, they don't really do too much. You know, they're, they're also vulnerable to being attacked from behind. So in their native territory, the predators that prey on them, such as cornetfish, will attack them from behind and kind of get the sneak on them because they are, they do just kind of like drift around. They're not very fast. So they're kind of easy to catch if you get them from the right angle.

New Speaker: Interesting.

New Speaker: Yeah. That's only in their own native territory, which I'll talk about, uh, the difference between that and where they currently are in just a second. But moving on to ingenuity. This is a fish, I gave it a 3 out of 10. It's not a bright fish, like, so I gave them 3 points for their hunting strategy. Like I said, they stalk their prey and then intimidate it and just kind of like corner it and then gobble it up once it's kind of cornered. So I gave him a couple points for being able to figure that out. Now I- major deductions for their failure to understand fear. They don't fear death at all. They are totally confident. They are, everyone that kind of like is around them often describes them as being indifferent to threats. They just kind of are like, yeah, what are you going to do? What are you going to do? I'm literally covered in venomous spikes.

New Speaker: "What are you gonna do, eat me?"

Ellen: Quote from fish eaten. Yeah, they just kind of like drift around. They don't care. You can kind of swim right up to them and they'll get a little agitated but they won't like, flee from you and they kind of wish you would. They kind of wish you would. They just have this very arrogant attitude about them where they just kind of drift around and don't really care.

New Speaker: "Hey, I'm swimming here!"

Ellen: So yeah, they're, they don't really, they don't fear death. And I thought that was kind of dumb. Something that they also do that's really dumb is that they do not stop eating when they're full.

New Speaker: I can relate to that.

Ellen: Ah, yeah, me too. Uh, and it's something that I deduct my own ingenuity points, but, so the lion fish are kind of a bottomless pit. They just eat and eat and eat and eat and eat as much as they physically can, which has led to a whole plethora of problems in their own environment, but also problems for the lionfish itself. Lionfish are starting to become obese.

New Speaker: Oh...

Ellen: Yeah. Lionfish in the Atlantic are starting to store fat in their body where there should not be fat because they're eating so much. You don't think of fish as becoming fat, but these are some fat fish. So it's starting to actually like affect their health because they don't know when to stop eating. So they have kind of screwed themselves over with their own impulsive eating habits. Not to say that's not relatable, but I gave them pretty major deductions for that. So 3 out of 10 ingenuity. Moving on to aesthetics. This is kind of the big strength that the lionfish has. I gave it a 9 out of 10 because: work. This fish right here. This fish right here? This fish right here. Look this fish up if you haven't recently cause, so they have those long, fanned out pectoral fins, they remind me a lot of paper fans, right? Like it also looks like they have these ribbons that trail off the ends of them. And just really the whole look is just so good. It's just so good. It's beautiful.

New Speaker: Which I guess is probably why they're so popular in aquariums.

Ellen: Right. So their very impressive appearance led to them becoming really, really popular to put in personal fish tanks. And then when people started keeping them in fish tanks, then when they couldn't take care of them anymore, since they're so pretty, people were like, well, I don't want to just, you know, I guess humanely euthanize it, I'll just set it free. Don't do that. Don't do that. That's bad.

New Speaker: Yeah, when has that ever turned out good?

Ellen: No, not good. So to sum up my score for the red lion fish, that was a 7 out of 10 for effectiveness, a 3 out of 10 for ingenuity and a 9 out of 10 for aesthetics. Bringing us to an overall total of 6.3 out of 10 for the lion fish.

New Speaker: Okay.

Ellen: Now I am going to deduct some points for being honestly rude. Honestly, just so rude. I'm going to deduct some points because they have really become a major problem. Lionfish are devastating ecosystems in the southeast United States and Caribbean waters. Like,, we've talked about a couple of endangered and threatened species on this show where the efforts are being made to like preserve them and make sure we're doing everything we can to bring their numbers up. This is the complete opposite of that problem. There are way too many of these dudes in places where they're not supposed to be. So like I said, they've been released into the Atlantic Ocean, mostly by the pet trade people that just like the pythons that we talked about in South Florida, they were released from the pet trade and just kind of set off into the wilderness thinking, "surely no harm will come of this," and harm came of that.

Ellen: I got a lot of this information from a slate.com article by Christie Wilcox in July of 2013, the title of the article is "The Worst Marine Invasion Ever." So the problem with lionfish in the Atlantic is that in their native habitat there are a lot of fish that evolved with the lionfish and is familiar with the lionfish. So these are cornetfish sharks, grouper, they regularly eat the lionfish because they know what they are, right? They look at them, they're like, this is something I can eat. I know how to handle this. Nom nom nom, nom, nom, nom, nom delicious. So no real problems there because there are predators that keep their populations in check. Not so in the Atlantic because they've been introduced to this completely new ecosystem very suddenly and very recently, so too recently for predators to have developed any sort of habitual like, preference for eating them. So they are so dissimilar to anything else that lives there. There's nothing else in this ecosystem that looks like them. So the problem with that is that local predators don't recognize it as prey and smaller creatures don't recognize it as a predator.

New Speaker: Sneaky sneaky.

Ellen: Because it moves very slowly, right, it doesn't look like that. It probably doesn't look that threatening if you don't know what to look out for. So on either end, right, the ecosystem that they've been introduced to is just completely unprepared for responding to this fish. So the predators don't know to eat it, the prey don't know to run away. It's just really bad. This combined with the lionfish's, uncontrollable appetite is just kind of a recipe for disaster. So like I said, the lionfish don't stop eating when they're full. Lionfish are starting to become obese and they are eating way, way, way more than their fair share of the prey. And they will eat anything that will fit in their mouth. It's not like they have one particular thing that they eat, right? It's not like, oh they only eat this one type of shrimp, or oh they only eat this one mussel. They eat anything. The problem here is that they're eating things like parrotfish, which are really important to the control of algae and seaweed growth cause they're herbivores. So the parrotfish is important for keeping the growth of plant life in check. So the lionfish are eating the parrotfish, which is making the algae and seaweed growth all out of whack. Also the small little, little cleaner fish that you'll see, little fish that will come up to other fish and like clean their bodies and clean little parasites and stuff like that off of the bigger fish?

New Speaker: Yeah.

Ellen: Well, the lionfish eats those too, which means that now the big fish are more vulnerable to infections and parasites. So that's now threatening those populations in that way too. And also they're just kind of eating up any other little prey that is shared by other predators in the area, so like snappers, groupers, stuff like that. Really just getting a competitive edge against all of these other predators that- it's already, with the way that climate change is affecting those areas, they're already on the fragile side, and the lion fish is just coming through and cleaning up shop. Like just cleaning 'em out. These crazy insatiable appetites are just depleting the food available to other species in the area, which is becoming a huge threat to the biodiversity in that area in general. And they're eating so many other fish and leaving not only the other fish but also themselves with so few food options that they've started eating each other. Like lionfish have started cannibalizing each other.

New Speaker: There's one positive I guess...

Ellen: Nope. I mean that really just means that's how desperate they are. Like this is not, this is not a common behavior. This is not something you typically see in not just lionfish, but like in most fish and they're doing it just because they've eaten literally everything else. Lionfish are just this huge threat to basically every ecosystem that they have infiltrated in like, the entire Atlantic. Also because lionfish can't really be fished traditionally with like a reel and a hook because they don't bite on hooks. They very, very, very rarely will bite on a hook. That's not a reliable way to fish for lion fish. They also can't be caught with nets because they usually live in like really rocky reefs and rocky terrain where a net wouldn't work in that sort of situation. So the only way that you can really hunt them is with a spear.

New Speaker: Oh, I've heard of this.

Ellen: You have to get in the water with a spear and really just like, one by one, take these dudes out. Which, I mean, that's kind of cool. That sounds kind of fun, right? You just kind of jump in and like Assassin's Creed every like...

New Speaker: I mean, I hear spearfishing is pretty popular.

Ellen: Yeah. Due to the fact that like, hunting them is tedious and not super effective. The Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission issues and annual Lionfish Challenge. So they are offering rewards for hunting and killing lionfish. So this was actually a really cool, I was reading about this today. This is really cool. You can participate from anywhere in the state of Florida.So the first batch that you submit for the contest can be submitted via photo. You can take a picture of the ones that you killed and send it in. So that's for your first batch. Any batch after that, you submit the tails of the lionfish that you have slain. So you cut the tail off, put the tail in a plastic bag and like write on it, I don't know, some information.

New Speaker: Is... Is this real life?

Ellen: This is real.

New Speaker: That's a video game.

Ellen: So you put the tail of a lionfish in a bag and you can bring it to these designated dive shops or regional offices that are serving as checkpoints with the Fish and Wildlife Commission where they'll like check off your fish and let Fish and Wildlife know how many lionfish you killed.

New Speaker: Then what do they do with it? With the tails, I wonder...

Ellen: Honey, I do not know. But so it's all over the Atlantic coast throughout the year, there are lionfish hunting events. Florida Fish and Wildlife has a calendar of lionfish hunting events on their website, so you can go, if you are into spearfishing or if this sounds like fun to you, you can go to their website and see where your nearest lionfish spear hunt tournament is taking place. These are literally all throughout the year. There's one like next week or something.

New Speaker: Huh.

Ellen: Yeah, they're, they're all over the place. So all over the state, right? Like all the time they're doing these because it is so important for people to get out there and start killing these lionfish cause they're destroying everything. They are destroying everything in their path and they must be stopped. Florida's whole like government is really doing their best to incentivize killing these dudes because they are the opposite of endangered. They're endangering.. Everything. They're doing a very bad job. So, another way that we can kind of incentivize keeping these numbers in check is by eating lionfish, which I don't do unfortunately because I just don't eat fish in general because it's icky, but I've heard they're really delicious.

Christian: Yeah. That's what I hear too. And if that opportunity ever presents itself, I will take that instantly.

Ellen: Yeah. So if you do see lionfish being offered as an option at a place where you are eating and you do eat fish, go for it. It is, uh, it's good for the environment. Please, please eat these dudes.

Christian: Are you telling me I can do my civic duty by eating food?

Ellen: Yes, please. Please eat this food.

New Speaker: I'm going to be the next local hero.

Ellen: I know we got Captain Planet over here. Come to the aid of the reefs by just eating as much fried fish as you can.

New Speaker: And behold, my endless maw.

Ellen: You could give the lionfish a run for their money. Kind of the general understanding of it was like, oh, the only thing with a more insatiable appetite for destruction than a lionfish is the human being.

New Speaker: Oh no, they're coming for us. They're coming for our title. No, can't let that happen.

Ellen: No, we gotta show them who's boss around here. So it's kind a, if you can't beat him, eat him sort of thing.

New Speaker: Is that how it goes?

Ellen: That's how it said on the website. So yeah, eat lionfish. And if you are a spearfisher, get out there and start killing them. Please. We're begging you. We're literally begging you. Please do it. Yeah. So I decided to deduct a couple of points from my personal score for the lionfish. My overall score for the lionfish was a 6.3 out of 10, but I'm taking a few points off for it being a total jerk and I'm gonna give it a 4.

New Speaker: Take that lion fish.

Ellen: Yeah. What do you think about that?

New Speaker: Probably not strongly either way.

New Speaker: You know, with their sort of general attitude, I bet even if they spoke English and understood numbers, they probably wouldn't- their massive ego probably wouldn't even take a hit. Now in their native environment, lionfish are not a bad thing. They're fine in their native environment where they have predators and there is an ecosystem in place that can keep them in check. But in my house, on my turf? In Mama's house, we don't- we do not stan lionfish. Lionfish can...

Christian: Get sauteed.

Ellen: Yeah. Lionfish can, uh, kick rocks. Get on out of here. Okay. That's all I had.

Christian: Well thank you. Um, I've heard, I've heard many stories of lionfish, but I'm glad I know more about them now.

Ellen: Yup. That's the, that's the red lionfish. The total jerk.

Christian: Well thank you Ellen.

Ellen: This is probably the first animal that I've done that I would not describe as a friend.

Christian: It's the opposite of what they said in Nemo: food, not friends.

Ellen: Fish are food, not friend. Fish are food. This fish are food. This fish are not friend.

Christian: Well thank you for that Ellen. So that about wraps it up for us this week.

Christian: We can be connected with on Twitter at @JustTheZooOfUs or on Instagram at @thezooofus. That is NOT @justthezooofus, I'm sorry that name was taken. On Instagram we're @thezooofus. We can also be found on Facebook by searching the title of the show, so find our page. If you have an animal that you want to hear us review, you can submit those to us atthezooofus@gmail.com, so send us your favorite animal friends and we'll talk about them on the show, and when we do, we will give you a shoutout. So also make sure your name is included in there so that we can give you props.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: Well one more real quick thing. Uh, if you like what you're hearing, I would really like it if you let your friends know that there's this cool animal podcast you've been listening to and it's called Just the Zoo of Us and you really think that they should check it out, so please help us spread the word. We have some really cool plans for things we want to do if our numbers really start to take off, so let people know what you're listening to. Uh, you know, spread the word. Give us some love on social media, link back to us, all that good stuff. We would really appreciate it.

Christian: Tell your animal lovin' friends. Tell your non-animal lovin' friends, we'll convert them.

Ellen: Except unless they don't like lionfish, because then I think this episode would really just kind of prop that belief up.

Christian: In which case, here's a fist bump through your headphones.

Ellen: Ayyy we also hate lion fish. Oh, I shouldn't say that. We don't hate lionfish.

Christian: No.

Ellen: Anyway, so yeah, a transcript of this episode, we'll be up at justthezooofus.home.blog, and finally we would like to thank Louie Zong for the use of his song "Adventuring" off of his album Bee Sides.

Christian: So good.

Ellen: It's so good. And all of his music is good and all of his art and content is excellent.

Christian: Love it, love it, love it.

Ellen: Love everything. Please go check his stuff out. And yeah, that's all I have for this week. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for listening.

Christian: Thanks everyone.

Ellen: Thank you, byeeeee!

Christian: Bye.

5: Blue Dragon Sea Slug & Water Moccasin

Ellen: Hello, this is Ellen Weatherford...

Christian: ...and Christian Weatherford.

Ellen: ....and we're here with Just the Zoo of Us, the podcast in which Christian I review your favorite species of animals. Each species that we review, we rate out of 10 in the categories of effectiveness, ingenuity and aesthetics. We are not zoological experts.

Christian: No, not at all.

Ellen: No, Christian and I are just enthusiasts. We love animals very much and we have a lot of opinions on them. We do a lot of research and we really try our best to make sure we're presenting information from trustworthy sources.

Christian: But by all means, let us know if we're wrong.

Ellen: Yeah, please feel free to reach out to us. We can now be connected with on Twitter at @JustTheZooOfUs or on Facebook by searching the title of the show. We have our very own page now, that's brand new by the way, I set that up this week. This is our first time recording having released an episode already. This is episode five, so in episode five we are launching a brand new feature. This is a listener submission. This is a species that was requested by our dear friend Erica Carr. So, Christian went first last week, so I'm going to be going first this week so I'm just gonna jump right into it if you don't mind, Christian.

Christian: Of course. Let's hear it.

Ellen: Alright. The animal that I have today is actually an animal that I knew nothing about prior to Erica bringing it to my attention. This is the Glaucus atlanticus, also known as the Blue Dragon Sea slug or the blue angel, the sea swallow, some people even call it the sea lizard. Now this is not an animal that I think a lot of people know very much about, but you've probably seen a picture of it because recently back in 2015 a whole group of these washed up on shore in Australia, so pictures and videos of them got really, really popular, kind of went viral for a minute, so a lot of people have seen them. I'm going to kind of describe what they look like to you because you probably have actually seen a picture of it, just didn't know what it was called because they're pretty rare. They're very rare to see. They are a sea slug, so they're actually a type of nudibranch, which is a type of sea slug. They're very, very little. They're only- they're less than one and a half inch long. So this is about a fingernail-sized animal.

Ellen: It's smol.

Ellen: It's very little. It's really little. But so they are, they have a tapered body. They're thick at the head end, but they taper out towards the tail end. But the really striking feature of these sea slugs is that they have these six wings. So this is three pairs of wings on either side of the body. These are made of these really feathery looking tentacles, which is why I call them wings. So the pair of wings closest to the head is really big, but they get smaller towards the end of the body. So that's why it looks like a dragon, cause it looks like a long sort of snake shaped animal with wings. It looks like a dragon.

Christian: You know what it makes me think of when I see it?

Ellen: What's that?

Christian: The Pokemon Kyogre.

Ellen: Yeah. Yeah. It does look like Kyogre very much and actually when I was looking this up, I found a lot of people refer to it as the Pokemon slug. Like, it- A lot of parallels have been drawn. A lot of fan artists have made fake Pokemon designs out of this animal. It's, it's beautiful to look at. So another striking feature about it is its coloration. It is dark blue and white, so it has a very, very high contrast look to it. It looks very much like an alien. I'll get more into the appearance of it later on. As I mentioned before, I'm not an expert or anything, so I wanted to give a shout out to where I'm getting my information from. I got a lot of my information from a website called Oceana.org, I also got a lot of my information in reports, um one of them being by Vanessa Uschenko at the University of Northern British Columbia and Kenneth Hattersley at the sea slug forum. They both had very interesting, very detailed reports on the blue dragon sea slug. So that's where my information is coming from, just to credit to them. So I already mentioned that these are little guys. They're only about three centimeters or one and a half inch long. You can find them pretty much anywhere in an open ocean.

Ellen: So these are common in the Atlantic, Pacific, Indian, and I wouldn't say common, I'm sorry. They're not common. So most nudibranches are benthic, which means that they live at the bottom of the ocean and feed down in like reefs or on stuff at the bottom of the ocean, but the blue glaucous is more likely to be found up near the surface of the water. I'll talk about why in a minute, but that's where you're going to find them. This also contributes to why they look the way they do. So we'll, we'll talk about that in a second. Their taxonomic class is gastropoda. This is the same class as the snails and the slugs that you would find on land. This is, yeah, it's a sea slug. Specifically, it is a nudibranch, there are about 3000 species of nudibranches.

Christian: That's a lot.

Ellen: There are so many. So this one is a pretty interesting one. It's a little bit different from other nudibranches but super interesting. All nudibranches are interesting. This one specifically so, for the reasons I'm about to list. So, first category I'm going to rate it on his effectiveness, effectiveness being how physically capable the animal is of doing the things it's trying to do. For the Blue Dragon sea slug, I gave it a nine out of 10.

Christian: Very cool.

Ellen: That's a very good score. It's not perfect but it's very good. So first of all I wanted to talk about its camouflage. So the, as I mentioned before, the blue glaucus on the side... I'm tempted to say its "back," but it's not its back. On the side that is facing up, the side you would be looking at when you're looking down at it, is this dark blue and white. Very high contrast in color. When you look at it from below, what's actually their back (because they actually float upside down) their back is a very pale gray or a white color. This is a really common coloration pattern that you see in animals that live in the open ocean. This is called countershading. This makes it so that when you're looking at them from above, they blend in with the dark blue of the water below them. When you look at them from below, they blend in with the white of the sky above them. So this makes it really kind of difficult for predators to see them. They also, I mentioned that they float upside down, so their "belly," or what's actually like when you translate it to the terms of a snail or a slug, a gastropod, that's actually their "foot." So, um, what would, what would be the underside in a snail or a slug is for them facing upward because in that belly they hold a little air bubble in it. So they, they swallow air and keep air in their belly and that keeps them floating upside down.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: That keeps them up at the top of the water. I'll go into why they want to stay at the top of the water in a minute. They have those six wings, so that's three pairs on either side of the body with these feathery looking tentacles. Those tentacles are called cerata. Cerata is what they're called, and they're fanned out in the shape of what I would describe as a palmetto frond, how they're kind of all clustered together at a point and then they fan out like that. They look like fins, and you may assume that they're fins, but it's really, uh, it's really shameful trying to watch them use them to move because they try. They wiggle and they moved them, and they try to get where they need to go, but they just can't. It offers little to no propulsion in the water. So they're kind of at the mercy of the wind to get where they need to go. This is why I took one point off of their effectiveness because their mobility is trash. Garbage. They cannot get anywhere, like they are totally at the mercy of the current of the water to get anywhere. The real usefulness of the cerata is defensive. This is a combat wing. This, these are like built for damage. The cerata, let's talk about these cerata cause they're insane. The glaucus eats siphonophores. This is including the highly venomous Portuguese man of war.

Christian: Ooh! That's my favorite.

Ellen: I know you like them! So, well, I'm sorry, but the blue glaucus eats them.

Christian: Oh...

Ellen: Eats them tentacles and all.

Christian: Ohhh! My poor Portuguese.!

Ellen: I'm sorry to trash on your favorite animal, but this is its natural predator. So the glaucus has powerful jaws that contain these rows of sharp chitinous teeth. The glaucus just kind of latches on and just chomps chomps chomps. Just munches on the Portuguese man of war and eats the whole thing. So what's really interesting is that the glaucus is immune to the sting of the Portuguese man of war. Not only is it immune to the sting, but its body passes the nematocysts, which are the cells that produce the sting and produce venom that causes the Portuguese man of war to sting, the body passes those nematocysts along through the digestive system, which feeds into the cerata. So the nematocysts are stored in those cerata and highly concentrated.

Christian: What!

Ellen: Yes. So the blue glaucus is taking the venom from the prey that it's eating, storing it in its own body and weaponizing it.

Christian: So let me get this straight.

Ellen: Yes.

Christian: This little guy, he's going after the highly feared Portuguese man of war.

Ellen: Yup.

Christian: Eating it.

Ellen: Yes.

Christian: And then when it gets attacked, it's just like, "you're making me more strong! Ahahaha!"

Ellen: Your resistance is only making way more powerful!

Christian: And I feel like I've seen pictures of people holding these in their hands.

Ellen: It's a bad idea. Don't do that. Don't do that at all. So...

Christian: You're going to have a bad time.

Ellen: Real quick sidebar about that is that when you see videos and pictures of people holding them, they've probably only found it because it's washed up on the beach. So by the time they've reached the beach, they've probably already used up all of those nematocysts and probably aren't going to be delivering those stings, but you really don't want to chance it because if they haven't, and they still have- because remember, they're concentrated. This is like they're eating multiple Portuguese man of war and storing all of that venom, so it's far, far, far more concentrated than just one Portuguese man of war, which is like a really intense sting by itself. This is like a bunch of them condensed into one sting, so you really don't want to chance it. Seriously, do not touch these things.

Christian: When you see pictures of people who have stings from the man of war, it kind of looks like someone took metal wire that was heated until it's white hot and just pressed against their skin.

Ellen: It does look like you've been branded.

Christian: Yes.

Ellen: And this is like emergency room level. Like you got to be rushed to a hospital if you've been stung by one of these things. So yeah, the Blue Glock is, is just completely immune to it and not only immune to it, but weaponizes it and steals it and uses it to its own advantage. So that's why they have those cerata. It's moreso for delivering that sting rather than actually using them to swim, which you can see when you see a video of these things trying to swim in the water because it is pitiful. Garbage. They cannot swim. It's so bad. They really try though. Like you can see them flapping their little wings but they're just not going anywhere. It's real sad. But I still wouldn't touch them though. I mean where are they trying to get in such a hurry? Nothing can... I mean they're protecting themselves from predators by you know, delivering this ridiculously powerful sting. They've got their camouflage covered, they've got their self defense covered. They're pretty tough. You know, I guess I didn't take any more off for mobility cause I figured that mobility was not that big of a concern for them.

Christian: I mean, to give them credit, their uh, their main prey is even less mobile.

Ellen: Yeah. I mean when your main prey is something that just floats on top of the water...

Ellen: Yeah, it's completely dependent

Ellen: It has no method of moving whatsoever, they're pretty evenly matched. Yeah. So they do eat other things. They don't just eat the Portuguese man of war, but that's really most of what they eat. They'll eat other things like the blue button jellyfish or some other types of snails and stuff, but it's really just the, the man of war that they're interested in.

Christian: I wonder if their resistance to the man of war is staying kind of extends to the stings of jellyfish.

Ellen: Yeah, because it's similar. It's a similar type of cell, right? So a nematocyst is a type of cell and they have- the blue glaucus's digestive system is lined with this mucus that prevents them from being affected by it.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: Yeah. So it's really cool. They're totally just impervious to it.

Christian: Neat.

Ellen: It's really nice. So that's kind of the most interesting thing about this animal, I thought. They're also, as other nudibranches, they are hermaphrodites. All of them. They, every blue glaucus functions as both a male and a female, but they can't fertilize their own eggs. So they still do have to mate in pairs. So every blue glaucus produces these spiral shaped eggs, which they lay by either just kind of like firing them off into the ocean or if it's available, they will lay their eggs on some sort of floating structure, like if there's a log floating in the water or what's really common is for them to lay their eggs on the carcasses of their prey. Like dead carcasses of their prey.

Christian: Huh! Well then.

Ellen: They will lay their eggs on there. It's pretty smart.

Christian: Wrapping it up there.

Ellen: Yeah. They detect their prey and their surroundings by using these things called rhinophores. These are sensory preceptors that look like these two tiny little tentacles on either side of their head and these rhinophores pickup signals in the water that are, like chemical signals that alerts them to the direction of their objective, I suppose. It's like a little quest marker that just tells you which direction you need to go in. But like I said before, there's nothing they can do with that information. They can just kind of like orient themselves towards the thing they want to go to and like hope for the best.

Christian: I sure hope I or my prey float towards each other.

Ellen: That's really the best they can do. And you can see that they will try to swim towards the thing, but... They're not getting anywhere.

Christian: A for effort.

Ellen: Yeah, they're trying at least. So that's about it for effectiveness. 9 out of 10, pretty good. Actually really good.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: Yeah. So moving on to ingenuity, which is defined by us as the species cleverness.

Christian: So in, in other animals, a good example of this would be use of tools or um, use of interesting methods, things that aren't necessarily built him.

Ellen: Yeah. This is how their behavior and how well their behavior gives them an advantage. So I gave the blue glaucus a five out of 10, which is not great, but better than I expected a sea slug to get. Five out of 10. They will resort to cannibalism if no other prey is available, which you'll remember I gave the praying mantis a 4 out of 10 for cannibalism, but I gave them a 5 out of 10 because the praying mantis would just kind of attack their own kind with no sort of differentiation between their kind and not their kind. However, the blue glaucus does prioritize. It would rather eat not blue glaucus than other blue glaucus. So this is kind of like out of desperation. It's a last resort. They'll, they'll eat each other if they absolutely have to. So at least they are sort of self preserving.

Christian: The, the thought of two of these things trying to eat each other is a little entertaining cause I'm, I'm imagining them firing off those little stinging cells at each other and they're just like, haha no, no you! Just back and forth.

Ellen: I wonder if they could just recycle those, like, like recycle the already stolen nematocysts of the other one.

Christian: Like tennis but deadly.

Ellen: Yeah. So the other thing I gave them an ingenuity point for was that um, laying their eggs on floating structures because this allows their babies to develop their air sacs without sinking to the bottom.

Christian: Oh, okay.

Ellen: Yeah. So like how I said they have those air sacs that keep them afloat, that gives their babies a chance to get air from the surface before like really getting into the ocean. So I thought that was a pretty good idea. That's a good idea. You lay your eggs on a floating structure, so you're up there where you need to be.

Christian: I guess. I guess they have to hope, though, that the floating structure will remain floating for long enough for the development cycle.

Ellen: Yeah. I mean I would hope it wouldn't be like how we watched that special on the sperm whale carcass that sank to the bottom of the ocean. Like they better hope that doesn't happen. I would imagine if they're, if they're planting their eggs on their dead prey, though, that's like other things that are gonna float.

Christian: Hopefully.

Ellen: Yeah, so I thought that was a pretty good idea. That's a pretty bright little idea that they had so I gave them a point for it. So that's five out of 10 that's okay. So for aesthetics, which is purely opinion based, by the way, and based entirely on how I feel about it, I gave them an 8 out of 10 these are definitely aliens. 100% no chance that these are of earthly origin just based on their looks. These are aliens. They're just like, the whole body has that really elegant tapered appearance with the wings being bigger at the head and getting smaller towards the tail.

Ellen: They have a surprisingly cute face. Like if you zoom in on their face and look at it, it's really cute. It has this like blunt shape to it and those rhinophores that I mentioned, these two tiny little tentacles on the side of the head, it's really cute. It reminds me of a, of a Manta rays face. How has those two little nubbies on the face? I think it's pretty cute. And also that really beautiful blue and white design that they have on their bodies just makes them really stand out and just makes them look really, really cool. I did take off one point for their very clumsy and ungraceful movement. So when you see a still picture, they look like they would just be this elegant, graceful, like drifting through the water and being so beautiful. But when you watch a video of them, it's really tragic.

Ellen: They're just kind of drifting their best and like clumsily flapping their little wings around. It's sad. But, so I took one point off for their ungracefulness and I took another point off for them being unsettlingly Lovecraftian in appearance. They can be a little creepy looking. If you're not into the tentacled look, this is probably not an ideal aesthetic for you. But so they do kind of look slightly eldritch horror-ish. So that's...

Christian: I could see that.

Ellen: That's a point off, but 8 out of 10 for aesthetics. So going back, that is a 9 out of 10 for effectiveness, a 5 out of 10 for ingenuity and an 8 out of 10 for aesthetics, which brings us to an overall score of 7.3 out of 10 for the Blue Dragon Sea Slug.

Christian: Pretty good.

Ellen: Yep! Some wrapping up and with some miscellaneous information, their conservation status is not evaluated. They are pretty rare because they are, they live out in the open ocean. How often are you going to find a three centimeter long animal out in the ocean? You're not going to be finding these very often. So in a group they're called a fleet, so you're most likely to find one in a fleet. These fleets of blue dragons will sometimes wash up on beaches, which causes problems because beach goers then are at risk of being stung in the water. And because you, you, you're not going to see them, they're so little, you're not going to notice them in the water. Or sometimes if you do see them, you're likely to try to handle them because they're really pretty looking and you might want to like, "Ooh, so pretty" and you might want to pick it up.

Ellen: And they're like, "don't like that! Bzzzt!"

Ellen: Don't like that thing! Bzzzt. Goodbye. So it's not great. Beach goers are at risk. Although I looked it up, everyone says that this is like a deadly creature, but I couldn't actually find any records of anyone dying from handling one. I looked, but I couldn't find any cases specifically of somebody dying from handling this animal.

Christian: Yeah, that sounds about right. A lot of animals I feel like have there deadliness kind of over exaggerated.

Ellen: I don't know if it's an exaggeration, but I'm sure it has the potential to be deadly.

Christian: Sure.

Ellen: Because people have died from Portuguese man of war stings.

Christian: Of course.

Ellen: So, and this is just like that times 10 so I'm sure it has a potential to be deadly. I just could not find any cases of that actually happening.

Christian: Well, I wonder though if it's actually worse because you know the, the tentacles of a Portuguese man where it can be like several feet long, right? So I think maybe there's a potential there because the whole tentacle just gets wrapped up and get all of that. So I'm wondering which ones actually worse, but uh... Hm.

Ellen: I don't know. This phenomenon of the fleet of blue dragons, sea slugs washing up on the shore happened on Australia's Gold Coast in 2015 which led to that popularity boom while people were taking videos and photos of them, they got way more popular around that time. A little more locally to us, this happened at Hillsboro Beach in south Florida in 2016 and also in Cape Canaveral in February of 2018.

Christian: Interesting.

Ellen: Yeah, these were all a examples of, or occurrences of blue dragon fleets washing up on beaches. So most of the footage that you'll see of blue dragons is from these washing up on shore.

Christian: I do like this imagery. So this big group known as a fleet of these blue dragons showing up on a beach. In my mind, I'm hearing the, the Flight of the Valkyries.

Ellen: So it's very on theme for the Game of Thrones finale, uh, coming out tomorrow night as of when we're recording this on Saturday. Yeah. So the fleet of dragons just kind of tragically washing up on shore dead.

Christian: Foreshadowing?

Ellen: Rip.

Christian: All right.

Ellen: Yeah. So you're likely to have only seen these recorded under these circumstances because the blue glaucus has never been successfully kept or bred in captivity. This is likely due to their extremely specific diet because who has the means to keep this tiny little creature fed with Portuguese? Man of war? Where are you going to find those? Where are you going shopping for a Portuguese man war? They don't sell those at PetSmart. They ain't got 'em in bulk at Costco.

Christian: It's probably a good thing.

Ellen: Yeah, I'm pretty, I'm pretty thankful that they don't sell those at Costco. I'm made uncomfortable enough by the fish displays and lobster displays. So like if they had those hell beasts just sitting there in their fish department, I would never leave my house. Yeah. Yeah. So you're not going to find these, you can't keep them as a pet. You're not gonna find them in a zoo, you're not gonna find them in an aquarium, which I think is likely why so little overall is known about the animal just because they're really hard to find. They're hard to study. They're hard to observe. What we do know about them is really interesting. So I had a really fun time looking up this animal and I'm a big fan of it. I only gave it a 7.3 out of 10 but for a sea slug, that's not bad. That's pretty good for a sea slug. I'll probably go into other sea slugs and nudibranch species later on, so...

Christian: It's an interesting little family.

Ellen: We'll see how they square up against other of their cousins. So that's the blue glaucus. That's the Blue Dragon Sea Slug.

Christian: Well thank you.

Ellen: Yep. Thank you! All right, Christian, what you got for us?

Christian: Alright. So for this week I've got another Florida classic.

Ellen: Great.

Christian: I personally have always known this animal as the water moccasin. So I know a lot of areas have their own kind of common name for them. I think the more common name for them is the cotton mouth.

Ellen: Yesss!

Christian: Um, so this is a snake, of course, it is venomous. Right. Um, so I'm just going to jump right in. Its scientific name: Agkistrodon piscivorus.

Ellen: Ooh.

Christian: So what that literally translates to is "hooked tooth fish eater."

Ellen: That's the thing. That's what it is and does.

Christian: For sure, because it's diet is primarily fish and Fabian's pretty much any small vertebrate, but mostly fish and amphibians. So this, this I say this is a Florida classic because uh, we can find these snakes pretty much anywhere in the southeast United States. Yes. Common in fresh water, but can be found in salt. It's usually only found in salt water when it's trying to travel from one place to another.

Ellen: Sure, sure, sure. That's not their hangout. Yeah.

Christian: Yeah. In Florida, his case, that's usually, and they're trying to travel to or from a barrier island from the mainland.

Ellen: Oh, okay. Okay. That makes sense. This is also why we don't go into water here. We've got gators, we've got water moccasins, we have so many things in our water that we'd want nothing to do with.

Christian: Yeah. This particular snake has a... Legacy, I suppose of aggression and which I will touch on a little later.

Ellen: Yes! They're so mean.

Christian: They belong to the taxonomic order Squamata which, um, other things that are in there are lizards and other snakes, basically scaled reptiles. As Ellen did, we have some categories. The first one being effectiveness, I gave this snake a full 10 out of 10 for effectiveness.

Ellen: That's awesome!

Christian: So here's the reason why. They are pretty much built to just own the water.

Ellen: Yes. Absolutely.

Ellen: So they hold the interesting distinction of being the world's only semi-aquatic viper.

Ellen: Semi-aquatic viper meaning they sort of live in the water?

Christian: Yeah. Yeah. They're, they're not totally in the water. Not like a, not like a sea snake. Right, right. So, um, the water moccasin can be found up to even like a mile away from a water source, but they do enjoy being in wetlands. So, like I said, world's only semi aquatic viper and other examples of vipers are the copper head, the rattlesnake and those kinds of snakes. In addition to that title, it's also the u s is only venomous waters think so there are, there are other water snakes too, but this is the only one in the U.S. that is venomous. Sure. So, uh, as you might guess, it's an excellent swimmer. They will move through the water pretty easily. They're fast.

Ellen: They're quick! They're way quicker than you might think they would be.

Christian: And because they are a viper, they have heat-sensing pits between their eyes and nostrils. So a lot of the times when you hear this talked about on, for example, documentaries, they visualize that with something like infrared camera. Basically what it is, it lets them see heat, a lot of their prey will have body heat. However, here's, here's something interesting I thought about the water moccasin: they usually go for live prey, but they have been documented as going after carrion.

Ellen: Really!

Christian: So, for example, the fishing dock, you know where they're butchering fish and throwing parts into the water, they've been observed eating those bits. Yeah.

Ellen: I wouldn't have thought of a snake as a scavenger.

Christian: Right, right. It's, it's a, it's a little unusual when you think about snakes.

Ellen: That's an interesting behavior. Cause usually when you think of them feeding, it's like they catch things and kill them and eat them. Like even when I worked at Petsmart, when we would feed the snakes, a lot of times the snakes you would have to move what you were feeding them because if it was just sitting there, they didn't want anything to do with it. It would be something you'd have to move around.

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: Interesting!

Christian: Yeah. They eat mostly fish and frogs, but they've been known to eat other small invertebrates and even other water moccasins.

Ellen: Go for it. Sure.

Christian: Which is pretty common in snakes. Another interesting their venom. So it's a Hematoxin.

Ellen: Okay. This is a blood poision?

Christian: Yeah so, so you might've seen something on youtube where someone takes a blood sample and puts this kind of venom in that sample and then it basically, it just coagulates.

Ellen: Ruins it. Destroys it.

Christian: So, so what this does when a human is bitten by this kind of snake is it does tissue destruction.

Ellen: Oh no...

Christian: Right. So it's not a, it's not a neurotoxin like some other snakes. So with, with this one though, human fatalities are rare. They happen though. But, um, the thing with tissue destruction at a really depends on where the bite is, can sometimes result in amputation if i's in a particular extremity and it progresses enough.

Christian: Earlier I mentioned about its aggression while- the cotton mouth is known to stand its ground. So if it feels threatened, a lot of snakes would run away. But the cottonmouth will usually stand its ground. It'll do that, uh, snake-esque pose, where it just kind of curls up...

Ellen: In an S-shape.

Christian: Yes, an S-shape. Um, and I'll, I'll come back to that a little bit in the next section, but while it will stand its ground, it's aggression is actually over exaggerated.

Ellen: Okay, so they're not going to like seek you out.

Christian: Right.

Ellen: They're not gonna try to fight you.

Christian: Right.

Ellen: They will though.

Christian: They'll, they'll go- they'll defend themselves, that's for sure.

Ellen: Yeah. They wish you would, they wish you would.

Christian: Um, oh, you know what, I kind of skipped over how big these things can get. So around 35 inches long. So now that that's over, that's almost three feet or for our metric listeners, that's 90 centimeters. And there's a little bit of dimorphism here, so the males tend to be larger than the females where the average weight for a male is around 20 ounces. For females, it's 9 ounces.

Ellen: You know, this is pretty small for such a dangerous snake.

Christian: So I think that's, that's kind of common with the venomous snakes. They're not usually too big, other than like the King Cobra, for example. But now these are just average sizes. They had been found to be much bigger, sometimes in very special circumstances.

Ellen: And they're plump too.

Christian: Yeah. Yeah. So vipers are kind of known for their, their uh, thiccness. With two C's.

Ellen: Yeah. These are some chonks.

Christian: So a 10out of 10 for effectiveness, they kind of are the best at what they do.

Ellen: Yeah. Absolutely. Got the he game cornered.

Christian: Literally killing it.

Ellen: Aaaaaaah nice.

Christian: Ingenuity. I'm giving them a 7 out of 10. So earlier we talked about what they do when they feel threatened. So this is where its name cotton mouth comes from. When they feel threatened, they go into that pose, they look up at you and they just open their mouth and hiss, so the inside of their mouth is...

Ellen: Like a bright white.

Christian: Yeah. So it's, while the rest of their body is dark, sometimes almost entirely black, kind of depending on how old they are. But that's a, it's a stunning contrast between the white and the rest of their body. And then they're making that hissing sound. Also when they, in that situation, they tend to waggle, or wiggle the end of their tail.

Ellen: Cute.

Christian: So they do this when they're feeling threatened, but they also do that in a different context to lure frogs and other animals.

Ellen: Really!

Christian: Yeah. Uh, a lot of animals kind of do this thing. I think there are certain turtles that do something similar with their tongue or their tongue will have a small appendage that looks like a worm.

Ellen: Yes, yes, yes. This is a lure. This is a fishing lure. really.

Christian: Yup.

Ellen: So this is tool use out of their own... body.

Christian: Yeah. Yeah, so I figured it was appropriate to put this in ingenuity and give some points there.

Ellen: That is very cool.

Christian: Yeah. Uh, so yeah, the, they'll do that in two different contexts. One for luring prey and one for showing, you know, I mean business. Don't mess with me.

Ellen: I think for humans also, that like flash of white also just lets them know that the snake is there.

Christian: True.

Ellen: Because that dark color, it makes them really difficult to see, especially in the swampy, muddy ground and they're that dark brown color. So you probably won't see them. And then when they show you that bright white flash, you can see them and know to leave them alone.

Christian: Oh yeah. So, so yeah, these, these guys are found in wetlands, swamps, marshes, but also in Florida, you know, we have a lot of pine forests and other kinds of settings where there's a lot of, you know, leaves and other rotting plant matter.

Ellen: It's gross. It's gross.

Christian: But they're found in all of these places. Another point I'm getting them for ingenuity. They do this interesting thing in the dry season. So in the dry seasons, you know, bodies of water shrink. So that causes the concentration of fish to go up. So they have more fish in a given area. They make use of this time to just feed as much as they can.

Ellen: Excellent.

Ellen: So in the, in the wild, but they'll do with fish is though they usually corner them to, to first immobilize them and then they'll, they're surprisingly very good at striking underwater. There's, there's kind of a, a myth that they're not that good at striking while underwater, but that is not true. They are pretty good.

Ellen: They got it!

Ellen: They will attack and bite and then constrict. Constrict is more for just stopping movement, not so much the kill cause you know, they're, they're biting down and injecting their venom and waiting for that to take effect. So yeah, 7 out of 10 ingenuity.

Ellen: T...hat is very smarter than I thought a snake would be.

Christian: They're very good.

Ellen: Yeah. It's a good animal.

Ellen: And it, and it kind of... I'll talk about this a little later, but I think that the reason it's conservation is what it is, is because it's so good in its habitat. Aesthetics. Um, how much to look at, kind of gave it a 6 out of 10.

Ellen: Yeah.

Ellen: Okay. Uh, so when they're young, their colors are much lighter. They can be almost there almost brown when they're young and you can see kind of bands of darker coloration when they're younger, they actually get mistaken for copperheads. Yeah. They, they bear a somewhat resemblance there.

Ellen: There aren't very many defining characteristics just by looking at one that's just chilling there other than the context of like where it is other than when they're an adult. You can probably tell what you're looking at because of the shape of the head and the like, plumpness of the body and also just where it is. You can probably tell by context clues, but other than that it's just a snake.

Christian: Yup. So basically, you know, when, when they're older, it's almost entirely black body with a white mouth. Uh, the, the very tip of their tail is a little bit lighter. So a problem I have noticed in Florida personally is, you know, people will see a snake and they will automatically assume, oh, danger! Kill!

Ellen: Yes.

Ellen: Big problem. Yeah. So usually when you have a healthy snake population, that's a good sign. You know, they're, they're helping with the road in population, but a lot of people will assume dangerous snake and kill them. And a lot of the times the snake is not dangerous at all.

Ellen: Yeah. It could be like a corn snake and garden snake or, yeah.

Christian: You know, they're also killing the non dangerous snakes. Yeah. So the problem here is Florida in particular has a lot of snakes that could be mistaken for a cottonmouth. So like, like I alluded to, there are other water snakes but not venomous though a lot of people would assume, oh, dark colored snake in the water, cotton mouth, not always the case. You might have to have a little bit of experience with snakes to be able to tell the difference. But like, like you mentioned, you know the cotton mouth is a viper so it has that distinct head at where it's a broad head and it kind of ends in a snub nose.

Ellen: It sort of has these wide cheeks.

Ellen: Yeah.

Ellen: Has like wide cheeks but then a trapezoid face.

Christian: That's a good way to explain it. And they also have a distinct neck, which is... Which is not common in snakes. You know, sometimes you have a hard time distinguishing. Okay, where does the neck end and the body/tail end?

Ellen: Yeah, it's all neck. It's all neck, the whole thing is.

Christian: So, so in these though that they have, they do have a distinct neck, you can see where, you know, the head ends, the neck is thinner and then it gets bigger for their body because of that chonkiness.

Ellen: Which I find a little bit cute.

Christian: Yeah, yeah.

Ellen: It's a little bit cute. It has a little plop to it. I think it's cute.

Christian: One thing I found charming about their aesthetics is when they move, so both on land and swimming, they keep their head up at like a 45 degree angle.

Ellen: Aw! Keep your chin up, buddy!

Christian: I think it's very charming personally.

Ellen: That is kind of cute. They look like they're proud of themselves. They're like look at me! It's me your snake friend! Except not your friend. Please don't touch me.

Christian: Yeah, leave me alone. I just want to eat fish.

Ellen: Although, you know, sometimes you just have friends that want to be left alone and sometimes you have friends that you need to give them their space and they're still your friends.

Christian: So yeah, 6 out of 10 for aesthetics. So kind of going back there, we got a full 10 out of 10 for effectiveness, a 7 out of 10 for ingenuity and a 6 for aesthetics and it comes out to an average of 7.7 out of 10.

Ellen: Dang you really had a flex on my animal like that, but giving it a 0.4 bonus over mine.

Christian: Well, you know, arbitrary rating and whatnot.

Ellen: That's true.

Christian: So I mentioned their conservation status earlier. They are of least concern. So again, they're in the southeast United States. There are three subspecies. There's the eastern, the western and the Florida cotton mouth.

Ellen: Oh, we have our own one! This is just like the manatee! We have our own one, we're so special.

Christian: That's right! So they're very good at what they do. Um, some of the dangers that they have to face: humans killing them, like I mentioned, but also drainage of wetlands.

Ellen: Yeah....

Christian: But even despite that least concern, not having any kind of problem, there are areas near the furthest outreaches of their territory where they're considered endangered. So this is kind of like northern Georgiaall the way out to Texas almost, but in the deep south here with us, they're pretty much fine.

Ellen: Cool.

Christian: So, and I kind of touched on how many names they have. So for me it's always been water moccasin or cotton mouth, but I kind of did a little research. Um, they have, or at least on Wikipedia, they list over 60 different names.

Ellen: Hey y'all, that's too many. Hey, that's too many. Can we agree on one?

Christian: So that, that little tail thing they do, that has led to some names such as swamp rattler....

Ellen: Swamp rattler... Okay...

Christian: So of course it makes people think of how rattlesnakes will do something similar, but you know, they have something that will make a sound when they do it.

Ellen: Sure.

Christian: Rusty moccasin... And you started seeing combinations of these words, like cotton mouth rattler, it's just a whole list of different names.

Ellen: They're not really a rattler, they're more of a Wiggler. Can we call him a swamp... Swamp wiggler? That's a tongue twister though. Swamp wiggler. You try it. Swamp wiggler...

Christian: Swamp... Riggler.

Ellen: Yeah. It's hard, isn't it?

Christian: All sorts of things, swamp lion, trap jaw...

Ellen: Swamp lion?

Christian: Yeah.

Ellen: That's not even close.

Christian: I don't know.

Ellen: Not even close! It's not that at all.

Christian: Yeah. So lots of names for the same snake.

Ellen: Wel,l I have known them as a water moccasin. So as far as I know in this area, I think that's the more common name for them.

Christian: Yep, it's definitely a regional thing.

Ellen: Yeah. But I do know a lot of people who refer to them as cotton mouths. I have actually overheard an argument between two people. I was at like a zoo or something like that, and I heard two people arguing, they were looking at a water moccasin and they were arguing with each other because one of them insisted it was a water moccasin and the other one adamantly refused and said "absolutely not, I know for a fact that as a cotton mouth." And they were like about to throw bows over it. These people were like about to pop.

Christian: I'm imagining the Spiderman meme where they're pointing at each other.

Ellen: Yeah that was exactly what it was. And so it was just very amusing to me that they were like about to get into a fist fight over whether it was a water moccasin or a cotton mouth.

Christian: Yup. Yup. So another beloved Florida animal.

Ellen: Yeah, this is an icon for us and another reason we've already talked about the alligator, and this is just one of the other reasons why I don't go into open water here, and you shouldn't either. If you're visiting Florida, please don't go into the water anywhere.

Christian: I mean, we're here for a good time...

Ellen: Not a long time. The beach is normally fine, but like I just said, we've got these little ocean ninjas, the blue dragons that sometimes wash up on our shores too, so you're really not safe anywhere. Some people have referred to Florida as the Australia of the United States because everything here can kill you.

Christian: I feel like that's over exaggerated. I mean Australia has those trees, right where the trees that can kill you.

Ellen: Yeah, we have elaborate defense systems.

Christian: My worst enemy is the sun personally.

Ellen: You're not safe anywhere! All right, that's all we got for today, but like I said earlier, we're now doing listeners submissions. If you have an animal species that you really want to hear us talk about, you can submit it to us by emailing it to us at the zoo of us. That is all one word, thezooofus@gmail.com send us your animal species, send us your best friends and we will talk about them on the show and if we use your submission we will give you a shout out. You can also connect with us on social media now, we're on Twitter, we're on Facebook. Another new thing that we're rolling out is transcripts. A transcript of this episode and episode 4 can be found at justthezooofus.home.blog so if you have people you want to recommend the show to that are deaf or hard of hearing or maybe they just prefer to read rather than listen, they can find those transcripts at justthezooofus.home.blog. I'd also like to thank Louie Zong for the use of his song "Adventuring" from his album Bee Sides, we use it as our intro and outro music and we love it very much.

Christian: It's very good.

Ellen: Yeah. Excellent. All right, that's all we've got for you today, so thank you for joining us. Thank you for your time, thank you for listening and we'll see you next week.

Christian: Thanks everyone!

Ellen: Thank you! Byeeee!

4: Osprey & Arabian Camel

Christian: Good evening everyone. This is Christian Weatherford...

Ellen: And this is Ellen Weatherford...

Christian: and we're here with Just the Zoo of Us.

Ellen: And also it might not be evening time for you when you're listening to this. It's evening time for us though.

Christian: Sure. It is 10:30 on the dot.

Ellen: 10:30 PM on a Saturday night. And we are in our home in our office.

Christian: I just ate a bunch of chicken...

Ellen: And we're here to talk about animals. Let's do it. So we're really raging on this Saturday night, we're wild party types.

Christian: Okay. Do you want to do a musical thank you-

Ellen: I would call us party... Animals.

Christian: Ah, there it is.

Ellen: Yes. Thank you to Louie Zong for the use of his track "Adventuring" off of his album Bee Sides that we're using as our very charming intro and outro music.

Christian: Yes, it's lovely.

Ellen: Yeah, we like it a lot. Okay. So last time in our last episode, I believe I went first.

Christian: Okay.

Ellen: I think it's your turn

Christian: Let's do it. So for this episode, I'm choosing a bird. Not just any bird. A bird very, very close to Ellen and my hearts. It is known as the osprey. Yes.

Ellen: Swoop.

Christian: Swoop indeed. So, uh, Ellen and I, we swoop at the mention of Osprey because we are both alum of the University of North Florida.

Ellen: We swoop and it's, it's become a reflex at this point where you hear the Osprey mentioned and your arms just, you lose control of your body and your arms just flap wildly in a swooping motion.

Christian: Yes. It's a very, it's a very aggressive motion. Right. It's as we-

Ellen: It's combative.

Christian: We emulate the sweep with our arms and then stick out a leg as if we're reaching to grab a fish with our talons.

Ellen: Yeah. You got to really stomp into it too. They train you on it when you go to orientation at UNF.

Christian: Yep. It's kind of built in now.

Ellen: This sounds like a bit, but it's not. It's really true.

Christian: It's real. I don't have a choice in it now.

Ellen: I think I have photos.

Christian: Yeah. Probably. But anywho, the osprey. Specifically going to be talking about the western Osprey, also known as Pandion haliaetus. I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing that correctly.

Ellen: Are there multiple types of ospreys?

Christian: Technically, yes. Sub species. So there are subspecies because they are all over the place worldwide. Wow. So the western Osprey is the one where you used to here in Florida. That's when I'm gonna be talking about. So first of all, some folks might know it by different names such as a seahawk. Oh yeah. So they are diurnal. Is that how that's pronounced? As opposed to nocturnal. Correct. They are fish eating birds of prey. So I've often, when you think of an Osprey, you will think of the symbolic swoop as it's, as it's going into the water to grab a fish with its nice sharp talons. And they're also going to be cosmopolitan, which means they're pretty much worldwide in appropriate habitats. So anywhere that's appropriate for them, like in terms of temperature and obviously water, they're there.

Ellen: Yeah, they are. They will be. They're not picky.

Christian: Uh, adult size. They range from 0.9 to 2.1 kilograms in mass or two to four and a half pounds about.

Ellen: This is a little bird. Well, as far as birds of prey go, it's a little one.

Christian: Yeah. The birds in general are pretty lightweight, right? And they have to be. In terms of length, they're 50 to 66 centimeters or 20 to 26 inches. So about two feet. Yeah.

Ellen: This is not a big bird. When think of, when you think of a bird of prey, it's not a big one.

Christian: Sure. It's like a, a falcon or something. Yeah. But in terms of their wingspan, because 127 to 180 centimeters or 50 to 71 inches. Okay. That's five feet.

Ellen: Dang. Okay.

Christian: Uh, so, um, I mentioned their, to their location, they're found in temperate and tropical regions on all continents except Antarctica. Wow. Yeah. All of those places.

Ellen: And also they're, they're not afraid to live in urban areas too.

Christian: That's true.

Ellen: They're not the kind of bird that like you have to go very like far out to see them. You can see them- I mean, you'll see them downtown sometimes. Like they're not going to shy away from human activity.

Christian: Oh no, not at all. But yeah, as long as they're near a water source with a fish supply, they are there.

Ellen: We will pretty much a hundred percent of the time when we cross any of the large bridges that Jacksonville is known for, specifically the Buckman bridge, you will almost every time you'll see an osprey on that bridge chilling out. A lot of times they'll build nests up on top of the light poles there. In that big bridge by Tampa, they put big bowl shaped structures on top of the light fixtures so that ospreys can build their nests up there. Oh yeah. You'll, you'll see them all over the place around there.

Christian: Yup. Their taxonomic order... I'm probably going to butcher this.

Ellen: Let's hear it.

Christian: Accipitriformes.

Ellen: Oooookay.

Christian: So notable relatives of course, hawks, eagles and vultures, but not falcons.

Ellen: Oh, but they look like falcons. Yeah. Full Hawks and eagles though. I mean that makes sense. Yeah. Those are all kind of the fish eating birds. Yeah.

Christian: Let's get right into some scoring. So effectiveness, I gave him a big old 8 out of 10.

Ellen: That's not bad. That's pretty good.

Christian: So I give them effectiveness because they are the second most widely distributed raptor species. Second only to the Peregrine Falcon. Wow. Yeah. So they've got a good foothold, Huh?

Ellen: Yeah. Oh Wow. There is a pretty adaptable then like they can kind of like thrive in a wide variety of environments.

Christian: Yes. Uh, they are very built to catch fish out of water, which comprises 99% of their diet. So, you know, they have very sharp eyes, you know, they're able to see fish in the water. Uh, their talons are very sharp and they have kind of a backward facing scales on their talons to kind of like really grab slippery fish.

Ellen: Right, right. So it's not going to slide off.

Christian: Yeah. Um, and their feathers, the feathers are specifically designed to be in water, so they're, they're oily so that they don't get water logged so they can still fly. That's really cool. Yeah. So I took a point or two off of predation. So for ospreys they primarily have to worry about other birds of prey and egg stealers. So, so actually those being like raccoons, snakes, that sort of thing.

Ellen: I would love to see a raccoon climb to the top of one of those light poles.

Christian: They will try. And I learned a new phrase when learning about this, things they have to worry about: kleptoparasitism .

Ellen: Wow. Is this like a parasitic sort of relationship that involves thievery?

Christian: Yes. So specifically where for example, a bald eagle will steal the food that it osprey is trying to catch and eat.

Ellen: Wow. Rude. Honestly.

Christian: Right. So there's a phrase for this. I didn't know that. Well, not a phrase but a word. So yeah. So just imagine that. An osprey sitting on top of a light pole with a fish, you know, going to town and then here comes along, you know, America Eagle, and steals it.

Ellen: So this is like a step above scavenging. Like you're not scavenging, you're actually like stealing a kill from somebody else.

Christian: Yeah. So, um, you know, the source I was looking at was saying, you know, bald eagles are very capable of trying to eat ospreys and their young, but they're more likely to try and steal their food instead.

Ellen: Dang.

Christian: Just easier.

Ellen: Sure. I mean, why do the hard work? Right? Like let somebody else do it for you.

Christian: Yeah. So that that affects the Aspray itself, but also that's young, right? Cause a lot of times is going to be trying to collect food for their, for their young. Sure. So 8 out of 10 for effectiveness. Uh, ingenuity... I didn't get, I didn't see very much to give here. They're... they're kind of the standard bird of prey. You know, they build nests and catch food, but nothing too... Nothing I would describe as contributing to ingenuity. I gave it a 6 out of 10 though. Some deductions there around where they choose to build their nests. Sometimes...

Ellen: Light poles.

Christian: Which can become a fire hazard.

Ellen: Oh shoot.

Christian: Not necessarily light poles, but power don't like that can do it. Yeah. That's not a good idea. Yeah. I don't know that much in this category. Just 6 out of 10 .

Ellen: That's like standard bird fare, right? Sure. It's About how birds do. Sure.

Christian: Aesthetics. I gave it a full ten out of ten.

Ellen: Alright. This is a beautiful animal.

Christian: Yeah. So folks that aren't just aren't familiar with what ospreys look like, you know, do a quick Google search. They're pretty cool looking. They have very distinct colors. They have a, uh, lightly colored stomach and underside, sometimes patches of brown around the breast, and then their wings are darker. Their head is lighter, but then they usually have darker markings around the eyes, which they describe as a mask.

Ellen: If you're driving and you see an osprey, you can immediately tell that that's what it is. Yep. It's very easy to tell that that's what you're looking at. There's no, there's no confusing it for a hawk or a seagull or anything like it's very clear. Like that is an osprey. You can see them from very far away.

Christian: Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Ellen: So like UNF's colors are navy blue... What, what are UNF's colors? Navy blue and silver? And white? Something like that. But you can, you can see where that inspiration is from. When you look at an osprey they kind of have that like white and dark gray colors. Yeah, they're beautiful. They really are gorgeous.

Christian: Yeah. They have their eyes. They're, they're kind of, they can be a striking different, different color. It can be like a brown to a yellowish colors, so I think it's a very interesting contrast with the rest of the coloration. Their talons are usually white or like ish, a shade that is white- What, what was your phrase? White adjacent.

Ellen: Yeah.

Christian: So yeah, beautiful eyes. The, their overall just very sleek, um, and of course swoop.

Ellen: Yeah. Swoop is very good. I think swoop contributes to it a lot, but that is something that's near and dear to us.

Christian: Yeah. So you'll see a wildlife photography of these, these animals and often it's mid swoop who I like catching a fish. It's very majestic.

Ellen: Oh yeah. These are really good models. Natural models out here. Yeah.

Christian: So that overall score comes out to eight out of 10. Nice. So a little bit of miscellaneous info, conservation status is of least concern.

Ellen: They're doing fine.

Christian: Yeah. That's pretty impressive. Um, there are signs of regional decline, like in certain regions they're seeing less and less because of just certain things going on in those regions. But as a whole, they're fine.

Ellen: Great. They're doing good.

Christian: Yeah. Uh, they had some troubles in the fifties and sixties, um...

Ellen: Who didn't.

Christian: There was an insecticide called DDT used at that time and it affected the ospreys metabolism. How they metabolize calcium, and it was making their egg shells more fragile.

Ellen: Oh... Poor babies.

Christian: And sometimes infertile, so they had a problem and during that time period, but I believe DDT was made illegal in most parts, so they made a come back from that. And then they're just, another note is there, as I mentioned earlier, they're used as a sports mascot. So for us, you know, it's with the University of North Florida ospreys and we have our mascot, uh, Ozzie, the Osprey.

Ellen: Yeah. Ozzie the Osprey is a friend to us all. Yeah.

Christian: Then of course for those who follow, you know, American NFL football, there's the Seattle Seahawks. So like I mentioned earlier, Seahawks is just another name for osprey.

Ellen: Oh, I thought that was like a different animal.

Christian: Nope! Same bird.

Ellen: Okay! Although Seattle Seahawk has much better alliteration.

Christian: That's probably why they... Well, maybe that's why they went with it, or maybe it's a regional thing that they refer to them as.

Ellen: Yeah. I mean it's, it's just, it sounds better. Seattle Seahawks, you got that repetition there.

Christian: Yup. So that's the osprey.

Ellen: All right. That's a good animal! Very good. So I have for you an animal that I thought was going to be boring, that ended up not being boring at all. So this is the Arabian Camel, also known as the dromedary. Although I don't think I've ever met anybody who actually calls it the dromedary... That's just a name for it. We all know it as a Camel, but there are multiple different types of camels. So the dromedary refers specifically to this one species of camel called the Arabian camel. So their scientific name is Camelus dromedarius, the- Oh, I also have wanted to mention that we are not zoological experts.

Christian: Oh No. Not at all.

Ellen: And that we're getting our information... I'm getting my information largely from National Geographic and um, the San Diego Zoo. For this particular animal, I also got information from Encyclopedia Britannica, Desertusa.com and scientific American. So I just wanted to kind of put out there where we're getting our information from. Lest people think that we are experts. No, no, we're not. Um, we're just us.

Christian: And your citations are much more impressive than my own. This last one was mostly Wikipedia...

Ellen: That's okay. I mean, that counts. So yeah, I just wanted to include a quick note on where I'm getting my information from before I have really launched into it. So Camelus dromedarius. This is the largest species of camel. They are over seven feet or two meters tall at the hump and up to 1600 pounds or 725 kilograms. This is a big camel. This species only exists in the world as a domesticated animal. There are not any wild dromedary like Arabian Camels except for a large feral population that lives in Australia. So in the Australian outback back in the 19th century, this large import of camels came in where I guess some of them got out and have been living wild and free in the Australian outback. Huh. That's, that's the only, that's really the only place in the world where you're going to see these camels in the wild.

Christian: Hmm. I guess that means they were pretty suited to that kind of environment.

Ellen: I mean it works, right? It's a large, super hot desert. It was a very hostile environment and then they would just, they just really suited to it. So you're going to find these camels in northern Africa, the Middle East, south western Asia, all of those sort of arid regions of the world. Over half of the world's camel population is in Somalia, specifically in Somalia and interesting. Yeah, so lots of them in the northern Africa area. The camels are in the taxonomic order of Artiodactyla, which we've already visited with the Okapi.

Christian: Oh, makes sense.

Ellen: Yeah. These are those even toed ungulates, so pigs, deer, cattle, stuff like that. These are all artiodactyla. Some notable evolutionary relatives are the, there is the less common bactrian camel so that's the camel with two humps, but those are much less common. Only about 10% of camels in the world are bactrian camels, so those are, most of them are domesticated, but there is actually a separate species of wild bactrian camel, which are really a sight to behold. They're very scraggly and thin and don't really look great at all. The bactrian camels are the big, they're really, really fluffy. They have lots of, lots and lots of hair. They're more suited to like the more mountainous areas. That's just the, the other type of camel that there is, but the Camelid family also includes other animals like the llamas, the alpacas and their cousins, the Vicunas and the guanacos. They're cousins of the llamas and Alpacas, so they're all in the Camel family, which makes sense when you look at them, they kind of look like that. So those, that's kind of the camel family. But I am specifically talking about the Arabian camel, which is probably the one that you're thinking of. The one humped one, the big one with one hump.

Ellen: Now, effectiveness. Perfect score. 10 out of 10 this is a really interesting animal. This is an animal that is so incredibly well suited for the environment that it lives in. This is just insane how every single part of their body is extremely well adapted to a very hostile environment. So the most notable thing about the camel's efficiency to me was their water efficiency and how well they handle water. So the most probably noteworthy feature of the Camel is the hump, and most people probably know this, but the hump is where they store their fat. So it's not water in there, it's just it's fat and the fat breaks down into water. So they, they're storing the water in the form of fat and that hump can store up to 80 pounds or 36 kilograms of just fat. So when there's no food or no water around, the fat breaks down into water and keeps them supplied with water over time.

Christian: So does the, does the hump change in size when this happens or...

Ellen: Yes. Yeah. So that's where they're keeping their, their fat for consumption later. So a cam- this allows the camel to travel vast distances, even in complete desert so they can travel up to a hundred miles or 161 kilometers, like just going off of that fat. They also very, very rarely sweat. They do not sweat until their body reaches a temperature of 106 degrees Fahrenheit or 41 degrees Celsius. So that is another way that they conserve water by not sweating. They only sweat in like very extreme temperatures so they don't have to sweat very much.

Christian: Hmm. I guess that means their body can handle just operating at that temperature up until then.

Ellen: Oh yeah. Yeah. It's, they can just survive insane temperatures. They take in water not only from like just drinking water but from desert plants. So they eat plants that they find in the desert, including cacti and take in water from that. So you just, eating desert plants helps them go even longer without drinking water. So they can go like weeks and weeks and weeks at a time without drinking. Now when they do drink, they drink up to 30 gallons or 114 liters of water in less than 15 minutes. So they're going to town, they're just drinking a lot of water so they can lose up to 40% which this is a high number, but I saw some figures that said 20% son that said 30% but up to 40% of their body weight, that's how much body weight they can lose from sweating before becoming dehydrated.

Christian: Woah.

New Speaker: Yeah. So for context, most other animals can't lose more than 5% of their body weight before their heart fails and they die. So the camels can lose up to 40% which is just insane. That's so much of their body weight that they can lose before their body starts to shut down from dehydration. So this is due to the oval shape of their red blood cells. This is getting a little bit out of my realm of understanding, but the shape of the cells allows them to continue flowing even in a dehydrated state. And this is called osmotic variation. Hmm. This is, that's all I got on that. But it's interesting. It's due to the shape of the red blood cells. They're an oval shape rather than around shape. Hmm. Now the camels nose,... It even, like every single part of it is so adapted to, to dealing what it's dealing with. So the camel's nose, the inside of the nostril is lined with really thick hairs and those thick hairs catch water from its breath and recycle it back into the body. So the camel is actually not losing very much water from breathing like, like you and I, we're losing moisture as we breathe. Sure. So even just breathing loses water but the camel's nose is catching that water and putting it back into the body.

Christian: So how, how's it getting it back in the body? Is it just like, like...

Ellen: When it breathes back in, like when it breathes back in that water.

Christian: Oh, you know what I was imagining? It was like the hairs in its nose were catching in the water and then it was just collecting and coming out of its nose.

Ellen: Oh gross. No, it's like, it's like when it breathes back in, the water comes back in. So it's like it's not, it's not losing moisture from breathing. Oh yeah. So since the, since the camel is so good at utilizing the water in its body, so little moisture is wasted that the camel is not excreting very much water. So camel urine is extremely thick and viscous. It's really thick. Like it's, it's, it has the consistency of syrup. Yes. Gross. And their poop is so dry that it can be used as fire fuel. You can actually light it on fire and use it as fire fuel. Yeah. That's camel poop. They're not, they're not pooping out very much water. They're using all of their water. So why waste it on poop? Yeah. So you can see the evidence of their water efficiency even in their excrement.

Christian: I guess us humans, we're so wasteful with our water.

Ellen: Yeah. So not only are they super duper good at using water, but they have all these other adaptations to protect them from the hostility of the environment they live in so their nostrils can close up and that keeps sand from getting into their nose, so they have that protection from sand flying around in the air. They also have really bushy eyebrows and two rows of eyelashes that protect their eyes. They also have a thin nictating membrane, which is that inner eyelid that you'll sometimes see in some other animals. Each eye has that inner eyelid that allows them to keep their eyes open even during sandstorms so they can still keep their eyes open and still see they can't, can't see super great out of it, but you can still keep your eyes open and see and move around even in the middle of a sand storm.

Ellen: Yeah, very cool. Their lips and mouth are lined with a really, really thick skin, which means that they can eat dry, thorny desert plants.

Christian: Oh, I was going to ask how do they manage cactuses.

Ellen: Yeah, they have, the skin in their lips and mouth is so thick that they can just eat it. They don't have to do anything to it. It just pick it up and grab it and eat it.

Christian: Alright then.

Ellen: Yeah, like spines and all. They just eat right through it. It's no big deal. Their upper lip is also split. And this I had no idea but this is crazy. Each half of the lip moves independently of the other one. Yeah. So they can like move the left side of their lip independently of the right side. It's crazy. It's insane. But so that kind of lets them like maneuver like when they're eating cacti and stuff, they can like turn it around and do what they need to do to eat this, these crazy plants.

Ellen: Uh, so that that really thick skin. They have leathery padding on the bottom of their feet and this really thick leathery padding keeps them from sinking into the sand, but it also makes their steps totally silent. So you can't hear one coming. They're very, very, they're quiet as they walk. You can't hear them, that- that same thick leathery skin is also on their leg joints so that they can kneel or lay down in the hot sand without getting burned or like scratched up. Yeah, so they can like lay down in the sand. No problem. It's very, very cool. The- now, the hair that their body is covered in has two layers. There's a guard hair for protection against the sand and then underneath that guard hair is an undercoat that's really soft and insulating. Both of these types of hairs can be used for textiles, for clothes.

Ellen: You can use either one. Now the camel can carry up to 200 pounds or 91 kilograms on their back, making them really, really useful to humans for transportation. This is probably what you've seen camels doing most is like carrying loads for people. They carry things around because they're very, very strong. Now this, I didn't know: camels are popular for racing. They do camel races. Yeah, camel races or like a popular sport in parts of the world where camels are found. So a racing dromedary can reach up to 40 miles per hour or 65 kilometers per hour. That's pretty fast. Yeah. For, for such a big animal. So yeah, they're, they're pretty quick and they can carry a lot of weight. So they're very strong and very useful. So although they're herbivores, they will eat fish, meat, bones, pretty much anything. This is very goat-like behavior, I think. They'll just eat whatever is available to them.

Ellen: So I was thinking like, wow, this is all this cool stuff that the camel can do. But what is it doing about predation? Like what is it doing to keep itself safe? So this doesn't really apply so much because the camel doesn't exist in the wild anymore. So they don't really have to worry about predators. But even camels that are kept free range, like they can kind of face regional predators like wolves, lions and tigers and stuff. But here's the thing: they are so well adapted to such extremely hostile environments that in those areas that they're capable of living, no other large carnivorous animals are able to live there because it's such a hostile environment. Like they are able to live in environments that so few other animals can live that they do not have to worry about predators because there's no like large carnivores that live out there.

Ellen: Nothing can touch them out where they are able to live, that nothing else can live there. So like why would they have to worry about, what do they have to protect themselves from? Nothing! Nothing can bother them out there. So I was just this animal, the camel is so perfectly suited to such an uninviting environment and it's also the perfect livestock because it provides meat- You can eat camel meat, so it provides meat- textile material, milk, and transportation. So this is a four in one farm animal. Wow. Just spectacular. You're getting four animals for the price of one. This is just a really, really useful animal and they're just so incredibly good at what they're doing. I was blown away. So impressed by the camel.

Christian: That's awesome.

Ellen: Now Ingenuity, I only gave them a seven out of 10 which is like pretty good for a farm. What is essentially a farm animal. I wouldn't really call them a farm animal cause you're not really going to find them on like a, a farm with your horses and cows. But sure. You know a domesticated animal, they do a spit like llamas. They're known, known for spitting. But what it actually is, what they're actually doing when they do that hostile spitting that is actually projectile vomiting.

New Speaker: I was about to say, like that seems like a waste of uh...

Ellen: That's because it is both saliva and stomach contents. Yeah. So when they're threatened or startled and they are trying to deter something from agitating it, they just puke on them. Just a little bit of projectile vomit, which I mean if I could, man, I would.

New Speaker: My favorite Sea of Thieves meta.

Ellen: You just puke on them and then they'll leave you alone. So when camels live together, they live in herds called caravans. So a caravan usually consists of a dominant adult male and the surrounding females, they have a kind of a social structure. Like they, each one kind of has its own place in their social hierarchy, they communicate with each other using bleats, bellows, roars, stuff like that that they also communicate with each other non vocally with body language. So the positioning of their ears and neck and tail has different meanings to each other such as like if they have their tail kind of curled under that indicates submission to each other. So they kind of do have a way of communicating to each other. Friendly camels will breathe in each other's faces, like exhale, like kind of blow on each other to indicate that they're friendly. Yeah, like to as, as a friendly greeting to each other. They blow in each other's faces and that just means like, I'm cool with you. Um, mothers and newborns will hum at each other and I find that really cute. They hum. And it's really sweet. Camel's are known for being really docile in gentle, but they can become stubborn and difficult if they're mistreated. So you gotta be nice to your camel, but if you're good to camel, camel's good to you. Yeah. You'll get good results from being nice to your camel, which I think is a lot like horses, right? You have to kind of be good to your horse. Otherwise they'll...

Christian: It's a good life lesson.

Ellen: Yeah, just in general, just in general, be nice to your animals. So for aesthetics, this is where the camel really falls behind for me, I gave them a six out of 10 because the whole thing could best be described as wonky. They have all these, you know, I talked about leather on the joints of their legs and that kind of gives them a very wonky look. They look, they have all these awkward angles and bulging joints and the those droopy lips, which are like great for what they're doing, they just don't look great to me, which I'm sure the camel doesn't care about it. That's just me. That's just my opinion. Pretty much all of their aesthetic points that I gave them, because I did give them six points, but pretty much all of those points are in those eyelashes. Those eyelashes are stunning. Spectacular. Beautiful. Slay. Yes, so good. Very good. Great eyelashes and two layers of them! Incredible. Really great eyelashes and I guess they can be cute at the right angles. I guess they can be kind of cute if you get them at the right kind of, if you get them from like from their good side, maybe?

Christian: The non-vomiting side.

Ellen: Yeah! As long as they're not puking on you. Then they're, I guess they can be kind of cute, but still they only gave them a six so overall this gives them a 7.7 out of 10 which I will round up to eight out of 10 but honestly like I'm just so impressed by their effectiveness that I would probably even bump them up to a nine just because I'm willing to forgive their sort of less than ideal appearance by how good they are. Yeah, this is a great animal. I, I would give that just based on the scores that I came up with it, it came out to an eight but I'm going to give them a nine for grace point. So some kind of other information about the camel. Their conservation status is domesticated. That is its own conservation status. They are domesticated. Yep. So that just means their extreme power has been harnessed by humans and we're now reaping the benefits of how good this animal is. So I wanted to talk a little bit about camel milk cause it's... I- I didn't really know where else to put it, but it's really interesting. So all the information I have on camel milk is from a Scientific American article by Layla Eplett in January of 2013. So camel milk is 90% water. 90% water.

Ellen: It's mostly water, which it makes sense because if you're a mama camel and you're trying to keep your baby camel healthy, you're going to be trying to give them as much water as you can. So yeah, 90% water. So this camel milk does not curdle naturally at all. It doesn't curdle.

Christian: So, no cheese.

Ellen: You can actually make cheese out of it. But it's a, it's kind of a big process. Like it's very difficult to make cheese out of it. But you can, you can, you just have to like do some chemical stuff to it. I don't know. You can make, make, um, camel cheese and camel cheeses, I guess. Kind of a popular little treat over in those parts of the world. But I've never had camel cheese, but you can make it, it's just pretty tough to make.

Christian: I'd try it once.

Ellen: So this is really interesting. Camel milk contains a protein in it that has characteristics that are similar to insulin and it doesn't coagulate an acid, so it's more likely to be absorbed in the intestine. So a two year clinical study showed that regular consumption of camel milk correlated with a significant reduction in insulin requirement with three of the participants who were in the study reducing their insulin requirement to zero

Christian: Oh so these are like, diabetic?

Ellen: Yeah. People who are, who require insulin intake. Like just, were consuming large quantities of camel milk. And after consuming all of this camel milk, they didn't have to take as much insulin.

Christian: So I wonder if they would have to keep drinking the camel milk or if they stopped drinking, camel milk, they would have to go back to their...

Ellen: I didn't see that. I think when this article was written, like this study was pretty recent, so I don't know very much more about it. I just thought that was really interesting that camel milk was, that camel milk actually had some potential like legitimate clinical benefits.

Ellen: So yeah, this is just the super animal. This is the best animal ever. Maybe it's not that cute, but come on! It does so good! This is such a good animal. I don't know if you've ever, I'm sure you've seen a camel at some point, like in real life, but I don't know if you've ever gotten to interact with one?

Christian: I don't think so.

Ellen: I rode a camel one time at, I did at the Lowry Park Zoo in Tampa, Florida. I don't know if they still do camel rides. I don't know if they still do that, but I did get to ride one, I think I must have been probably 12 years old. And I went to the zoo with my aunt and I got to ride a camel and it was one of these, um, Arabian camels. So what I remember is that the, the hair of the camel feels a lot like sheep's wool.

Ellen: Like it has that sort of thick dense curliness to it. It feels like wool and also it is a very bumpy ride because it's so tall! This is a really big animal. So you know, there's a lot of swaying back and forth and a lot of bumping up and down. And I remember it being kind of difficult to ride, but it was still really cool. It's a very, very uh, gentle, sweet, good natured animal. And I, I really enjoyed that. I'm going to see if my aunt still has a picture of me riding the camel cause that was cool. Yeah. So this is an animal that is not common where we live in our part of the world, but in other parts of the world is a very kind of standard livestock animal. So it's just a, just a really fascinating animal. I was really glad to learn a lot more about it.

Ellen: This is a really cool animal that is extremely well suited to an extremely uninviting part of the world. That is is not well suited for most other animals. So just to like see such a big like massive animal that is so well made to live in a place that is not good for most large animals. It was just really cool. Yeah. I'm very into this. I was not a huge camel fan prior and I am now, so I made, made friends with the camel. It's a good animal. So that's my, that's my segment on camels.

Christian: Excellent. Thank you.

Ellen: All right, well thank you for telling me all about the Osprey. I think we've made a couple of good animal friends.

Christian: Woo! You know, I feel like these two animals would almost never meet.

Ellen: Yeah. Cause you've got the, you've got the osprey that pretty much needs to live near the water and the camel that I'm sure would love to live near the water, but yeah, it's not really their hangout zone. Although I would imagine probably on in coastal areas, coastal areas, there's probably some overlap between the osprey and people who keep camels.

Christian: Yeah. You mentioned there's a, there's a lot of camels in Somalia, and that's, that borders an ocean.

Ellen: That's coastal, yeah.

Christian: Yeah, yeah. Okay. Okay.

Ellen: It's good stuff. These are, these are two pretty good animals. So quick, thank you to Louie Zong for letting us use the track Adventuring off of the album Bee Sides... I think that's all I got.

Christian: All right. Well, thank you everyone for listening.

Ellen: Thank you. See you later!

Christian: Bye.

Ellen: Byeeee!